Zimmerman studied Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' law: trial witness

[shawn703]

Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 02:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - Former neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman was versed in Florida's "Stand Your Ground" self-defense law before he shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, despite his previous claim to the contrary, jurors at Zimmerman's murder trial were told on Wednesday.

The blow to Zimmerman's credibility came after Seminole County Judge Debra Nelson ruled jurors should hear about the defendant's criminal justice studies because it was relevant evidence.

Nelson overruled strenuous objections from Zimmerman's lead lawyer in the racially charged case, which captivated much of the United States in 2012 because of the self-defense argument, and led to protests.

Zimmerman has pleaded not guilty to a charge of second-degree murder, saying he shot Martin in self-defense during their confrontation inside a gated community in the central Florida town of Sanford on Feb, 26, 2012

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE9620RL20130703

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Simply devastating testimony for Zimmerman. I don't think we will see any of the usual GZ defenders in this thread.

[NYC_SKP]

1. The problem with his "Stand Your Ground" defense: It wasn't his fucking ground.

It was just as much Martin's ground.

Possibly more Martin's ground to defend, as Martin wasn't out hunting for a confrontation.

Further, the duty was on Zimmerman to be sure he didn't create an unsafe situation, which he clearly did.

Stand Your Ground is not a defense available to Zimmerman.

[tblue]

45. Amen. Exactly.

Zimmerman was out hunting for a human being. Trayvon was getting snacks for a family get together. Pretty clear to me GZ wanted to get his rocks off.

His story just sounds so contrived. "You're gonna die tonight." "You got me." Who talks like that, outside of a cartoon?

[Nancy Waterman]

2. A picture is emerging from the trial of what went down

Zimmerman followed TM and got in his face. Martin took a punch or two at this predator, bloodied his nose, maybe knocked him over (hence to two meager scratches on the back of his head) and then Zimmerman got up and in his face again and shot him. At least that is how I see it. Am I missing something?

[Flashmann]

5. Am I missing something?

The premeditation that I have believed all along to be a factor,in this mess.A belief strengthened by the revelations,in the OP, of Zimmerman having studied "Stand your Ground."
I've believed all along that this sick piece of shit had every intention of shooting someone,ANYone,at his earliest opportunity,and that Mr.Martins only "offense" was having the misfortune to be in that place at that time.

[Th1onein]

6. Yup, Flashman. You hit the nail on the head.

He studied the Stand Your Ground Law, and took that and his gun out looking for a "perp" to kill. He thought he had a good one--after all, TM was black and WORE A HOODIE! Must be a gangsta, right?

Z is a MURDERER. Nothing more, nothing less.

[tblue]

46. MURDERER! Yes and he will live with that

for the rest of his life. He and Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson. Doesn't matter what the jury says. Enough people know GZ is a murderer.

[Cracklin Charlie]

18. It always seemed to me

That Zimmerman was looking for someone like Martin that night. And that when he saw him, Zimmerman stalked Martin, initiated the attack, and shot him.

[notadmblnd]

22. I think you're right on target.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3113742

[freshwest]

57. But I think the law holds that premeditation is specific to an individual, not just anyone, though.

I agree that carrying a gun includes the plan to kill or maim. And I've always been told that if you are not ready to kill another, do not put a gun in your hand, period. Because the chances are that the gun may be taken from you and used on yourself. One has to be ready to take responsibility for that.

[LiberalFighter]

37. Should make it easier to convict on the 2 degree murder charge.

[1monster]

9. On another thread, another day, a DUer hypothesized that Zimmerman's nose that broken

Last edited Thu Jul 4, 2013, 11:29 AM - Edit history (1)

by the recoil of the gun when he fired it.

Others have suggested that Trayvon hit Zimmerman with his iced tea can. (Were there any dents on the can that would
corroborate this theory?)

There were no marks on Trayvon's hands that indicated he hit Zimmerman hard enough to break his nose...)

[Duer 157099]

35. The drink can was still in TM's pocket

when he was found by police. Thus, it appears to have not been used in any manner.

[tblue]

47. So sad. That poor kid.

People don't realize how wary of white authority figures many black men have learned to be. This case is the perfect example of why. I am so freaking fed up with black men living with a target on their backs. If I ran the zoo I'd call for a special investigation of every offense against black men perpetrated by white police officers and the like. I swear I would.

[Thor_MN]

17. Egypt taking over but DNA evidence was painting a picture of Martin not having Z DNA on him.

Z's blood was on his gun grip, no Martin DNA on the grip.

Personally, I think Zimmerman bloodied himself, quite accidentally, with the gun still in his hand. Once he realized that what he had done, there were a few moments of literal brow beating, while he was planning his story.

[JimDandy]

50. George Zimmerman more likely caused his own slight nose injury

from his gun recoiling and striking his face after the kill shot to Trayvon. His blood could have transfered to the grip then, or when he wiped it with his hand, leaving the blood smear under his nose to the right of his mouth that you see one of the after photographs.

Other highly likely scenarios for those obviously negligible injuries are:

1. Trayvon's forehead impacting his when they both lose their balance, so that Trayvon lands on top of him and George Zimmerman lands on his back, and simultaneously gets the small surface cuts to the back of his head; or
2. Zimmerman, in the dark while running, or during the struggle with Trayvon (probably for control of where Zimmy was aiming his gun), ran into one of the numerous small trees with low branches growing all along the grassy strip.

[Sunlei]

56. good points. less concrete wounds than a kid skinning a knee or elbow.

Z also mentioned, T was after the gun?. Exactly when did Z show the "supposed to be a concealed weapon" to Travon.?

IMO it must have been right before Travon fought for his very life against the aggressive, enraged 'stranger'. I'd panic-scream for help too, if some enraged 'cracker' had a gun in his hand.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. Possible but

Martin's hands don't even show enough evidence to support that much 'aggression'.

I increasingly get the feeling that this poor kid died terrified, and under attack. It looks less and less like he did ANYTHING at all that could have been considered 'starting' the physical confrontation.

We'll see what the jury finds, innocent until proven and all that, but my gut is coming to a conclusion here, and I don't like the defendant at all..

[yardwork]

43. That's what I've thought from the beginning when I first heard those 911 tapes.

Those are the howls of terror from a teenage boy who is in fear of his life. They are not howls of anger. They are not the shouts of an angry person defending themselves by punching their aggressor.

There is no evidence that Martin ever laid a hand on Zimmerman.

I believe that the minor injuries on Zimmerman were self-inflicted, either intentionally or otherwise.

[brush]

51. I agree with most of that

but Martin didn't have any evidence on his hands that he was fighting.

None of that 35-40 blows to the face crapola zimmy claimed, or the 30-40 head bashes, or even the attempts at smothering by Martin to stop zimmy's "cries" for help . . . all made up stuff.

There might have been a wrestling match with both on top at some point, which is probably how ol' zimmy got the scratch on the back of his head. zimmerman the adult male, being the stronger person with MMA training probably easily won the battle for leverage and ended up on top and then shot the kid.

[SummerSnow]

54. You hit the nail on the head...

Z was following him...Z probably was talking shit while following him...Z provoked the situation and it got physical.M felt threatened.All he knew was that some guy was follwing him and he had to defend himself.Z cannot claim self defense if you provoked the situation .Imo he provoked it so he could shoot him.

[Hoyt]

3. All gun nuts/toters study SYG and SD laws. They want to know when they can blast away.

[Duckwraps]

23. Actually many states

who issue concealed carry permits require it in the CCW course work, but I bet you knew this.

[Hoyt]

24. And that's about all the "students" take away from the NRA courses.

They need instructors telling the yahoos to leave their friggin guns st home.

[Duckwraps]

28. Couldn't say. I've never attended A NRA course.

But my profession entailed the carring of firearms so I am fairly familiar with the use of deadly force principles and law and continue to study and teach self defence after retirement

[azurnoir]

4. Interesting

as that could allude to premeditation, of a sort, otherwise why would Zimmerman lie about knowing the law

[Cronus Protagonist]

7. Zimmermurderer went through the shooter's checklist on his call to the cops

That showed his intent to be crystal clear. "He's reaching into his waistband" ha ha. "Might be on drugs" lol - the problem is that he had to lie to make the teenager into a perfect target. That call shows his knowledge of the law and his extralegal attempt at pre-justifying what he planned to do to the boy.

After doing all the prep work over the phone with the cops, Zimmy wasn't about to let "that punk" get away without a bullet in his heart, and he had to chase the boy down, which invalidates Zimbo's claims to fear, but not the loathing.

[azurnoir]

8. exactly

[Little Star]

13. Exactly! And I also believe that him questioning...

Det. Singleton about her (catholic) cross on a chain was just in case he needed to show that the police were predisposed to prosecute him for murder.

He is a well studied, slick operator of police policies and procedures. He's also a f**king liar.

[yardwork]

44. And the ridiculous dialogue from a grade B movie.

"You got me!"

[Cronus Protagonist]

52. I would think the kid wouldn't be able to utter a word

Shot right in the heart muzzle against his chest. I don't think he even had a breath left. Zimbo is not only a killer, he's also a murderer. I won't shed a tear for him.

I would hit him with murder one because he clearly premeditated the whole scenario. The kid just happened to be in the wrong location at the wrong time, may his soul rest in peace.

[tblue]

48. "pre-justifying what he planned to do to the boy"

As a mom, I just

He did plan it. He wanted to do it. He waved to shoot someone, just need the excuse.

Also, that POS lied to a judge already about not having a passport and money or something. I forget the details but I hope the jury knows this creep is a proven LIAR.

[John2]

10. The prosecution

is finally getting more aggressive. There are a lot of areas they can exploit to show Zimmerman is a liar. They need to tear down this assumption, a person defending themselves would have the most injuries.

Zimmerman's only self defense claim is he used a gun. There are no injuries on his hands, arms, or knuckles, which gave an indication he fought back except with a gun. That is not using all means before using Deadly force. Someone fighting for their life would be using all means, including injuring the attacker, anyway possible.

I think the prosecution should ask an expert witness or law enforcement person the definition of stalking and symptons of pyschotic behavior. One of those symptons is an obsession and if Zimmerma showed any characteristics of either. The premise by the defense and his supporters, is anybody has the right to follow another person or watch another person without a reason. Every action Zimmerman took was hostile towards Martin, even calling him a suspect, or they always get away. It is ludicrous that he is making this kid, the criminal or some monster. I think Zimmerman is depending on racial attitudes with consevatives to get him off.

That is why I think it is grounds to go into racial comments made by his family and what his mother told him about Blacks. His father recently claimed Blacks are racist. I think they are using that for sympathy. So this guy claimed that he wanted to be a police officer, but, he was afraid of Martin? I want to see justice done, because I have no doubt of his guilt. If he gets off, it will be another travesty period. I wish I was the prosecutor. The judicial systen shouldn't be holding the state back either. This man shouldn't even be carrying a gun with his criminal record.

[pacalo]

34. Your second paragraph makes a substantial point...

Zimmerman's only self defense claim is he used a gun. There are no injuries on his hands, arms, or knuckles, which gave an indication he fought back except with a gun. That is not using all means before using Deadly force. Someone fighting for their life would be using all means, including injuring the attacker, anyway possible.

You made me realize that Zimmerman has only mentioned what Trayvon did to him; I don't recall reading or hearing from Zimmerman if/how he fought back physically to "defend" his poor little ol' self. Like you said, someone fighting for their life would use all means. That glaring omission, plus the movie clichés he used, adds more weight to the belief that his story is contrived.

[Voice for Peace]

53. how could he fight back, when he had to keep his hand ready on his gun?

[marshall]

11. And did he get an "A" in the class

Bring in the teacher.

[IdaBriggs]

16. They did, and he did. "Best student." nt

[freshwest]

12. Okay, but '...Nelson ruled jurors should hear about the defendant's criminal justice studies...'

What about his lengthy criminal charging record, even though he wasn't jailed?

A background check into that should be heard to give the jury an idea of the kind of behavior Z indulged in before, and it's not pretty. I see Z as a long-time criminal who got away with a lot and he didn't stop doing things that showed he was untrustworthy after arrest, either.

He had no business with a CCW or working to become a policeman with his background. Can you imagine the body count if he was granted the power to act 'under color of law?'

Color of law

The appearance of a legal right.

The act of a state officer, regardless of whether or not the act is within the limits of his or her authority, is considered an act under color of law if the officer purports to be conducting himself or herself in the course of official duties.

Under the civil rights act of 1871 (42 U.S.C.A. Section 1983), color of law is synonymous with State Action, which is conduct by an officer that bears a sufficiently close nexus to a state so that the action is treated as though it is by the state.

color of law n. the appearance of an act being performed based upon legal right or enforcement of statute, when in reality no such right exists. An outstanding example is found in the civil rights acts which penalize law enforcement officers for violating civil rights by making arrests "under color of law" of peaceful protestors or to disrupt voter registration. It could apply to phony traffic arrests in order to raise revenue from fines or extort payoffs to forget the ticket.

See: Ku Klux Klan Act.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Ku+Klux+Klan+Act

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Color+of+Law

P. S. The KKK Act is interesting.

[John2]

14. I agree,

regardless of Martin's past history. I took the same classes Zimmerman took. There is a difference between juvenile and adult behavior. Martin's conduct could be described with any typical teenager. Using marijuana or writing graffitti on school walls, are typical teenage pranks by a person his age.

Zimmerman on the otherhand was an adult male with a history of violence. He also got off on plea bargaining with the court. So there is a difference between an adult male and a juvenile. It depends on the kind of offense and the maturity of the person. If I was the prosecution, I would call the defense's bluff.

[CanonRay]

15. "blow to his credibility"

What credibility. He's done nothing but make shit up the whole time.

[SaveAmerica]

27. sorry, didn't see yours when I posted mine, that was my take-away too.

[KansDem]

20. Sounds like Raul Rodriguez did as well...

The "script" starts at 1'29"

Stop
Don't come closer
Get back/Get away from me
Stop right now or I will shoot you
I'm in fear of my life
I'm going to have to defend myself
etc.

Too bad Mr. Rodriguez was such a bad actor...

[Cronus Protagonist]

25. Precisely

They know how to give themselves the excuse to pull that trigger and be a whole and complete "real man" for a second, just like in the old wild west days. The problem is, the facts don't match the checklist, so they have to lie about them. No way was that man or Zimbo in fear for their lives. They were both packing heat and ready to use it. That's not fear for their lives, that's fear that they might go to jail when they use their coveted corpse-maker for the funnest part of owning a gun; shooting people. That's what the checklist is for, to make it easier for them to pull the trigger because they think they will get away with it. And Zimbo nearly did too. If it wasn't for the community outcry, he would have been free and clear.

Every police department should recognize when the checklist being read out to them as an excuse to use a gun and take steps to stop the shooter before he gets to fulfill his necrotic fantasy. What would have happened if the dispatcher in the Zimbo case had asked, "Do you have a gun?" and also said "Get inside your car, lock the door and wait for the police to show up, instead of the milquetoast "we don't need you to do that" bullshit that passes for "advice".

Heck, I know what would have happened, a child would still be alive today and Zimbo's penis would feel even smaller in his fat little sweaty hands when he uses his trigger finger on his own personal limpy little pop-gun.

[Politicub]

21. Zimmerman sounds more pathetic by the day

He got too wrapped up in his policeman fantasy and killed a kid.

He has proven himself to have zero self control. But the question is -- will the jury convict him?

[SaveAmerica]

26. How much credibility does he have left to lose? I laughed at that part.

And has anyone heard anything about Zimmerman being the architect of the Neighborhood Watch that he was a volunteer of? I thought I heard or read that somewhere, that he was the one who went around asking other homeowners if they wanted to join him. Is that correct?

[Gin]

29. Even if he walks on this murder......this is/was a preview of coming attractions in his life...

He has not faced the consequences of his actions in the past and shows no remorse for killing a young man.....he will pay....somehow...someway.... IMO

[ileus]

30. If you carry it's smart to know the law, or you may find

Yourself in court...

[jonthebru]

31. I always pull back to the basics.

Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 07:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Zimmerman was a "neighborhood watch volunteer." He should have simply said hi to Trayvon and went about his way, if that. He broke the rules by being armed in the first place. By his personality he was an inappropriate choice for even that volunteer position, a proper background check would have rejected him. I seem to remember hearing that Trayvon's parents have settled a lawsuit with the housing development for some sort of "wrongful death."

He ruined his own life by murdering that young man. He loves guns and will never again get to own one. He won't get death but an appropriate sentence by that Florida jury and judge may be life with the slim possibility of parole or not. Personally, in this case after seeing that disgusting Faux Snooze interview he should be imprisoned with no possibility of parole in the basement of a dark, damp prison.

[24601]

32. We live about 90 minutes from there. As I walked in, the local news was on and someone was being

interviewed from about today's testimony. The point being made that while the class covered self-defense laws, apparently of other states as well as Florida, they were in the class materials and discussed by their actual names as opposed to the nick-names we usually see in the press.

So you'll now see & hear "stand your ground" all over the press, but not in the title or text of the law. Instead, the class would have addressed:

"Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 (JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE)."

The specific section at issue in this case is:

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person. A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013."


The controversial provision is that upon crossing the threshold where use of deadly force is justified, there is no duty to retreat. Courts determine if that threshold is crossed.

I'm not sure what national news is saying; however, reporters covering the courts for our local stations have been saying that the state has been struggling making its case and that several "prosecution witnesses" have been more helpful to the defense than to the state. And after the investigator testified yesterday that he judged Zimmerman to be consistent and truthful, our news questioned why the prosecutors let the jury go home with that thought and didn't object until today.

[skeewee08]

33. Question did Z

every say why he got out of the car?

[pacalo]

36. He claims "he wanted to get an address".

[LiberalFighter]

41. I'm wondering if he had gps on his phone or in the car?

Don't 911 have capability to lock in on location when called in by cell?

[pacalo]

42. Good point. I believe he wanted a confrontation.

Anyone outside of law enforcement carrying a concealed weapon is prepared for trouble, imo.

[LiberalFighter]

49. I think you meant a different word than prepared.

Like itching
looking
egging

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

38. What keeps going over and over in my mind

is that Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon and yet he persisted to do so, Why?

[vinny9698]

39. The question not asked, When did Z take the safety off?

That was asked by a lawyer on one the pundit panels covering the trial.
That answer will determine when he was going to use the gun.

[Duckwraps]

55. There is no safety on that type of gun. It is a double action, I believe nt

[AngryOldDem]

40. The hoodie was also damning.

Bullet hole at virtually point-blank range.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

58. Probably looking for fine print about killing black people

It's like porn for these assholes.