Asiana Airlines flight attendants told pilots plane was on fire

[alp227]

Source: San Jose Mercury News

The flight attendants of Asiana Flight 214 reluctantly took center stage Wednesday, appearing in public for the first time, while the head of the NTSB at a separate event detailed the vital role many of them played in the critical moments following Saturday's crash at San Francisco International Airport.

After the pilot ordered passengers to stay in their seats, one attendant spotted flames outside a window and sent word to the cockpit, triggering a mass evacuation 90 seconds after the plane came to a stop. Some attendants helped passengers flee while others grabbed fire extinguishers to fight flames that broke out inside the cabin after most of the passengers had escaped.

Later, they learned that three of their fellow flight attendants in the back of the Boeing 777 had been ejected -- along with their seats -- when the tail of the plane snapped off on impact. Those three attendants and three others were hospitalized after the crash.

The six flight attendants who have been interviewed by investigators so far "all shared a similar experience of an initial impact followed by a secondary impact" that triggered two emergency slides to inflate inside the cabin, pinning two flight attendants, said Deborah Hersman, chairwoman of the National Transportation Safety Board.

Read more: http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23637529/flight-attendants-told-pilots-plane-was-fire

[avaistheone1]

1. The local SF news reported it took 30 minutes for the first ambulance to get the victims.

Seems like even locally agencies have their priorities mixed up.

[davidpdx]

5. Plus there was a delay in evacuation as the pilot told them not to right after the crash

How long of a delay that was who knows. I have heard SFO was not very quick in getting rescue vehicles out there. I don't think they knew it was an emergency until just minutes before landing. Thirty minutes for help seems excessive.

[RobertEarl]

2. Can you imagine?

Being in that tail section and watching the plane break up right in front of you? What a ride, eh?

[SoapBox]

4. I remember seeing...

a Delta L1011 that crashed on landing in DFW.

About the only portion of the aircraft that was left was the tail section...you could see the Flight Attendant seats on each
side of the remainder of the plane. That left a pit in my stomach, even to this day.

[MADem]

8. Was that in the late eighties?

If it was, I thought a friend of mine was on that plane, but fortunately was not. Sadly a friend of my friend was on that plane.

[SoapBox]

3. Bravo to these Heros!

...and how about that FA that was the Lead? All that with a broken off tailbone?

wow. I should be so amazing to be that calm and brave.

[davidpdx]

6. I haven't exactly followed what the Korean TV media has been saying

But expect harsh criticism of Americans in the investigation, they may even try to blame crash on SFO.

TSB chief skewed Asiana crash probe'

By Kim Jae-won

7/10/13

U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Chairwoman Deborah Hersman is facing questions about her handling of the investigation into the cause of the crash of Asiana Airlines Flight 214 at San Francisco International Airport, Saturday (local time).

Experts are especially taking issue with the second-term NTSB chairwoman for releasing selected parts of recorded cockpit conversations between the pilots and the control tower, and flight records leading up to the crash, giving the media the impression that pilot error caused the accident.

Hersman, whose term expires this year, is also dictating the terms of the U.S.-Korean joint investigation, ordering Asiana President Yoon Young-doo to call off a press conference upon his arrival in San Francisco.

The NTSB warned Yoon over his defense of the Asiana pilots who flew the ill-fated aircraft, according to reports. It claimed Yoon‘s remarks could interfere with their investigation. The Asiana president’s position was repeated by the Korean government.

The government expressed its dissatisfaction over Hersman’s briefings, which it said through a spokesman could lead to premature conclusions.

The Air Line Pilots’ Association (ALPA), a Washington-based international pilots’ organization, said the NTSB needed to wait more time until full information on the crash was available, rather than rushing to announce incomplete data.

“The amount of data released publicly during the field portion of the accident investigation is unprecedented. It is imperative that safety investigators refrain from prematurely releasing the information from on-board recording devices,” it said. “This could then lead to misguided assessments of the crew’s intentions and actions.”

An investigation manual of the Aviation and Railway Accident Investigation Board, the Korean counterpart of the NTSB, indicates that releasing information to the media is the last thing a safety agency is supposed to do.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013/07/119_138967.html


Two local sources:

http://english.chosun.com (this one is the better of the two)
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr

[davidpdx]

7. Here is yet another problem in situations like this

The Confucianism hierarchical system requires junior members not to question the decision of their seniors. We'll have to wait and see if there is any connection.

Korea's Hierarchical Culture a Factor in Crash?

Some U.S. media are focusing on Korea's hierarchical culture as a factor in the crash of Asiana flight 214 in San Francisco, saying this makes communication among pilots difficult in an emergency.

Foreign Policy magazine in an article titled, "Why Flight Safety in [Korea] Lagged Behind Its Economic Boom" on Monday, the magazine quotes bestselling pop psychologist Malcolm Gladwell as saying a hierarchical culture can threaten safety.

"One would expect a country's aviation safety record to improve as it develops economically, since richer countries should be more committed to and capable of enforcing health and safety regulations. But according to a 2010 study, in newly rich countries like [Korea], safety in the skies does not always improve in step with GDP," it said.

It is unclear why that is so, but authors including Gladwell point to cultural differences, saying a hierarchical and authoritarian culture in the cockpit makes it difficult for juniors to raise objections when a decision is made by seniors.

Foreign Policy said in the case of Asiana flight 214, the first officer asked the captain to reconsider his decision to go ahead with landing, but this happened just 1.5 seconds before the crash. But the magazine added, "It's worth noting that Korean aviation safety has improved significantly from the bad old days; until this weekend's crash in San Francisco, [Korea's] Asiana Airlines had a top-ranked, seven-star rating for safety on the website airlineratings.com."

The online edition of CNBC made a similar point in a piece titled, "Korean Culture May Offer Clues in Asiana Crash." The article cited Thomas Kochan, a professor at MIT, as saying, "The Korean culture has two features -- respect for seniority and age, and quite an authoritarian style. You put those two together, and you may get more one-way communication -- and not a lot of it upward."

CNBC also mentioned the language used to address seniors as a problem. "As a general point of reference about the Korean language, you speak to superiors and elders in an honorific form that requires more words and can be more oblique... This may sound trivial. But put this in the context of a cockpit, where seconds and decision-making are crucial and you get an idea of how communication and culture matter."

"Investigators combing through the debris and data recordings from the Asiana Airlines jet that crashed in San Francisco Saturday may learn more about what happened inside the cockpit of the Boeing777 aircraft by studying… Korean culture," the broadcaster claimed.

But experts believe the claims to hold little water. In fact, it was reported that 41-year-old first officer Bong Dong-won advised his seniors -- captain Lee Kang-kuk (46) and copilot Lee Jung-min (49) -- several times that the descending speed was too fast.

One aviation industry insider said, "If the cockpit had an authoritarian culture, it would have been impossible for Bong to raise his opinions with his seniors." And one captain said, "It's true that captains acted in an authoritarian way in the cockpit in the past, but that's almost non-existent now. It's unimaginable for a captain to ignore the first officer in an emergency."

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/07/11/2013071101666.html

[Igel]

10. It's nice deductive reasoning.

But in practice, comraderie without spectators makes a lot of the hierarchy break down. A hierarchy of 2 in isolation isn't much of a hierarchy.

Formality also matters. In an informal context you'll going to get honorifics fading, esp. if there's some sense in which you're in the same group (perhaps "pilots&quot . In a highly formal context, you're going to get more honorifics used (not that you can't say unpleasant things dripping with honorifics. "Yes, sir, you're a dick, sir. Permissiont to add, sir, and with all due respect, sir, you're a fucking asshole. Sir!&quot .

In context you get people using low frequency of honorifics, but if one person enters the room the conversation becomes more laden with honorifics. How difficult the honorifics are to implement also seems to matter. If you can just add a consonant or vowel, it's no problem, you might continue; if it's a phrase or you have to search for the verb form, then it's in the way and you drop it.

We Americans and Westerners use honorifics, it's just that we don't have as elaborate a formal system or as grammaticalized a system.

[davidpdx]

11. No, it isn't as formal as in Western culture

When I learned Korean (what little I know), I learned the most polite form because the book I bought used that. I had people tell me you don't have to say this, you can say this instead because it is shorter. Even for Koreans it is hard at times to distinguish when to use the more formal and informal. My wife uses the word "older sister" when she addresses her older sibling (I'd tell you what that is, but I can't remember it off hand).

There have been quite a few incidences in the past where accidents have happened because a junior did not question the senior's order for fear of "losing face" (the terms is weird and I've had some interesting arguments with my professors about using the term in research).

[quadrature]

9. the pilot had a decision to make

after his plane pinwheeled down the runway.

make a bet, A or B.

A) order evacuation, which guarantees
20 broken ankles

B) hope for the best, and risk torching
more passengers than otherwise

pilot chose the latter