The General Lee, donning the Confederate flag, barred by NASCAR at March race at PIR

[Ptah]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/speed/articles/2012/02/17/20120217general-lee-nascar-bubba-watson-confederate-flag.html

Bubba Watson, a PGA Tour golfer who purchased the famed General Lee car from the 1980's
TV show The Dukes of Hazzard, will not be allowed to drive the vehicle as the pace car prior to
the NASCAR Sprint Cup race at Phoenix International Raceway as previously scheduled because
of NASCAR's concerns with the Confederate flag on the roof of the car.

"NASCAR, International Speedway Corp. and Phoenix International Raceway officials discussed this
and decided it was not in the best interest of our sport,'' NASCAR said in a statement Friday. "The
image of the Confederate flag is not something that should play an official role in our sport as we
continue to reach out to new fans and make NASCAR more inclusive."

-----------------

Sorry, Bubba.

[Ter]

1. Umm, why?

I can understand barring it at every other sporting event, but that flag is pretty much NASCAR's base, isn't it? A huge percentage (not all, I know) are rednecks, and I'm sure many NASCAR fans fly it.

[CherokeeDem]

4. No....

the Confederate flag is not NASCAR's base, that is simply a convenient sterotype of those who have no understanding of the sport. NASCAR's fans are from all states and all walks of life.

[Ter]

6. True, many like the sport who are good people

But it is more popular with rednecks on average, then say baseball or football fans. Same thing with bigfoot 4x4 monster truck rallies. What I'm trying to say is 30% or 40% or more of baseball and football fans aren't rednecks. At least that are NASCAR fans.

[reACTIONary]

8. Apparently they want fans who AREN'T redneaks...

... more power to them.

[rum sod]

26. nope

30-40% redneck? Very scientific, you must be a statistician for the census bureau.

[leveymg]

34. Here's an informal sample group. Overwhelmingly white and conservative. NASCAR = GOP base.

[PavePusher]

56. You can tell political affiliation from a picture?

Wow, someone should hire you.

[leveymg]

62. I've been to NASCAR and lots of other types of motorsports events.

NASCAR is almost uniformly white, conservative and that usually means GOP. Don't try to sh-t us about that.

[PavePusher]

63. Stereotyping, one of DU's favorite sports. Sigh. n/t

[Bucky]

94. How much are tickets? That'll tell you more about who shows up.

I like to watch Nascar racing on TV, but I don't go to the track.

[Honest Turtle]

72. This sounds like something hatched in a think tank

Nothing pisses off rednecks more than the theme that we are too PC to allow the confederate flag to be flown. This is even better than that because it is not allowing the General Lee a car many a kid grew up to love to be shown, because of the simple reason it has a rebel flag on top. At the time of the show the confederate flag was not almost solely flown/displayed by hate groups and rednecks as it is now. The flag was more represented as pride in the south and a symbol of rebellion. (or maybe that was what I saw growing up in a conservative Irish Catholic family in the South)

So out of no where suddenly the General Lee can't be used as a pace car and it is big press. This could have all been determined on the down low and no one would have known. But no it is big publicity. We may feel vindicated by Nascar, but we do not gain any votes. The Repubs however gain all the pissed off rednecks, who feel like the General Lee that they grew up with should be able to be a pace car. They feel like the rebel flag on top is just part of the car.

Just my thoughts... I hope no one is offended by them.

[center rising]

16. Exactly

NASCAR is just not a southern sport anymore. Millions of fans away from the south watch NASCAR, and half the tracks are away from the south. In fact, NASCAR's biggest star Jeff Gordon is from California!!

[jmowreader]

28. NASCAR's biggest star is no longer Jeff Gordon

Right now, it's Jimmie Johnson (the driver who won the championship five years running, which no one else has ever done), who is also from California. The other "biggest star" is Tony Stewart, from Rushville, Indiana. (Weirdness: I once had to make a run between two points in the Midwest. I had the choice of three basically equal roads; one went through Rushville, so I took that one just for the hell of it. There's no "Home of Tony Stewart" sign on the main road through Rushville; IIRC there's basically no mention of him, and at the time he had two championships to his name.)

NASCAR's "fan favorite," although he can't win a race to save his life, is Dale Jr., who IS from North Carolina. But you're exactly right, NASCAR is far from being a "Southern" sport now.

[IamK]

37. just wanted to post a photo of Danica....

[jmowreader]

73. Danica isn't NASCAR's biggest star yet...

and I have no idea in hell how she became the IRL's biggest star because the woman can't win races to save her life...she's only won one in her career. Cute only gets you so far.

[IamK]

76. Dale Jr is a horrible driver

and he is likely the sports "biggest star"... He has had 1 win th the last 6 years....it's all about hype, not performance. She will likely win a race before Dale Jr wins another....

[Cosmocat]

83. I am absolutely convinced after his father's death that NASCAR rigged

race to let Jr. win.

He won most of his races on the big super tracks, and being a the simple minded twit he is, I thought it seemed his car had a little more go to it than others during that time frame ...

I always felt they let them calibrate his car differently than anyone else was under the rules during that time.

[obietiger]

102. I remember...

when folks used to say the same about Jeff Gordon. They said they overlooked things with his car so they could have a "northern" driver be popular.

[Cosmocat]

104. Gorden

like Stewart, had real "talent" as drivers.

[obietiger]

105. I agree...

and add Jimmy J to that list.

[jmowreader]

93. Dale Jr. is definitely not his daddy...

then again, his daddy wasn't his daddy for the last four or five years of his life, since his daddy would go out to qualify with his race engine in the car and he'd wind up starting the show from row 16.

I have sometimes wondered, if NASCAR's one-engine rule had been in effect when Dale Earnhardt was alive, how many more races he would have won.

[truebrit71]

108. Princess Sparklepony won't last long...her constant whining about 'the car' being terrible...

...and fellow drivers being idiots, rather than admitting that she ran out of talent right after graduating from Toyota Atlantics (where she didn't manage to win EITHER) will wear out her welcome real quick..I have much more respect for women racers like Katherine Legge, who get respect because they can be competitive rather than having to resort to taking their clothes off...

[center rising]

92. Well, if you go by championships, it's Richard Petty and Dale Earnhardt!!

[Lugnut]

40. You're correct. It's not just a southern sport.

In fact there are more drivers from states other than those in the south.

[snooper2]

109. LOL, that's like saying people who watch AMRA or USCA events

come from all walks of life...

Sure you may have the odd case here and there, but for the most part um- no LOL


I think DU needs a lesson on stereotypes again-

All stereotypes are true, except... I: What are stereotypes?

Stereotypes” have a bad name, and everybody hates stereotypes. But what exactly is a stereotype?

What people call “stereotypes” are what scientists call “empirical generalizations,” and they are the foundation of scientific theory. That’s what scientists do; they make generalizations. Many stereotypes are empirical generalizations with a statistical basis and thus on average tend to be true. If they are not true, they wouldn’t be stereotypes. The only problem with stereotypes and empirical generalizations is that they are not always true for all individual cases. They are generalizations, not invariant laws. There are always individual exceptions to stereotypes and empirical generalizations. The danger lies in applying the empirical generalizations to individual cases, which may or may not be exceptions. But these individual exceptions do not invalidate the generalizations.

An observation, if true, becomes an empirical generalization until someone objects to it, and then it becomes a stereotype. For example, the statement “Men are taller than women” is an empirical generalization. It is in general true, but there are individual exceptions. There are many men who are shorter than the average woman, and there are many women who are taller than the average man, but these exceptions do not make the generalization untrue. Men on average are taller than women in every human society (and, by the way, there are evolutionary psychological explanations for this phenomenon, known as the sexual dimorphism in size, but that’s perhaps for a future post). Everybody knows this, but nobody calls it a stereotype because it is not unkind to anybody. Men in general like being taller than women, and women in general like being shorter than men.

However, as soon as one turns this around and makes a slightly different, yet equally true, observation that “Women are fatter than men,” it becomes a stereotype because nobody, least of all women, wants to be considered fat. But it is true nonetheless; women have a higher percentage of body fat than men throughout the life course (and there are evolutionary reasons for this as well). Once again, there are numerous individual exceptions, but the generalization still holds true at the population level.

more-
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200804/all-stereotypes-are-true-except-i-what-are-stereotypes

[Odin2005]

10. That flag is evil and SHOULD be banned. It represents slavery and treason.

It is little different from the Nazi flag.

[onenote]

13. Do you think the Nazi flag is banned? Should the Japanese flag be banned? The Union Jack?

One of the things that is best about this country is that we don't generally go around banning flags.

[Warren Stupidity]

80. I think a race car with a nazi flag on it would be rather offensive.

I suspect NASCAR would not allow that either.

[onenote]

87. And I agree that they shouldn't allow it

NASCAR deciding not to allow Nazi, Confederate or any other flag is NASCAR's decision. Its a far far different thing than the government banning those flags or any other flag.

[dflprincess]

88. Displays of the Nazi flag are banned in Germany n/t

[onenote]

89. Doesn't make it something we should aspire to here.

Certain types of satire also are actionable under German law -- the satirical ad that Hustler ran about Jerry Falwell's "first time" would probably have been actionable in Germany but, thankfully, it was deemed protected by the First Amendment in this country.

[Major Hogwash]

91. Yup, they sure are.

That flag isn't even allowed to be put on display.
And for a damn good reason.

[RZM]

100. And do you know that reason?

It's because the Allies wanted to make sure the Nazi party had zero chance of ever coming back. That meant not only banning the party, but its symbols as well. It wasn't so much about the legacies of Nazi crimes against humanity (although that played a role), but more about the political future of Germany. And it was the right call. You don't want to have to deal with the same enemy twice.

We did the same thing in Iraq too, BTW. The Ba'ath Party is banned by name in the Iraqi Constitution. In fact, it's banned under any other name too. There's a clause that effectively says nothing resembling the Ba'ath Party can be legal under Iraqi law. Same logic there. It's not because Saddam was a bad guy, it's to prevent his crew from coming back to power.

But that's not how we get down here. We won the civil war and ended the threat to the Union without having to permanently abrogate freedom of speech.

[Kelvin Mace]

14. No flag should be banned

and any flag should be burned if folks feel like it. As long as they own the flag, that is...

[Kurmudgeon]

38. Burning flags tends to create hostility, not a good idea. Just sayin....

[Scootaloo]

32. It certainly should not be banned

It makes for a VERY useful method of picking dumbfucks out of a crowd. it works like this.

Is there someone in a crowd sporting a confederate flag?
If so, that person is a dumbfuck.

See? Simple! Easy! And it doesn't even cost you $19.95! That's right, our dumbfuck identification system is yours, absolutely free!

[Bucky]

95. We should create an "acceptable ideas police" who regulate all flags.

I mean, it's like that snake is daring me to tread on it. It's secretly pro-oppression. We should ban that too.

[leftynyc]

98. HUGE difference between

NASCAR banning a confederate or nazi flag and the government doing it. I don't see anyone here advocating the government banning a flag (even one that represents treason).

[RZM]

101. Take another look at the thread

There are people here arguing it should be banned. Not many, but they are there.

[NYC Liberal]

12. Yes, but the point is they say they are trying to expand beyond that.

And allowing this wouldn't help.

[MADem]

18. There are a shitload of NASCAR fans in NH and ME, and they aren't fans of the stars-n-bars. nt

[sofa king]

36. I can give one good reason why.

While it's certainly true that Robert E. Lee was likely responsible for more American deaths than just about anyone, at the end of the war he gave his word that he would fight no more, would encourage others to do the same, would not permit soldiers under his command to slip off to the Blue Ridge to fight a long and costly guerrilla war, and then devoted the rest of his life to education, rebuilding, and reconciliation.

Thereafter, he never displayed that flag, nor allowed it to be displayed on his campus; never again wore badges of rank and insignia (even though he had only three coats, and one of them was his old general's jacket); never permitted his students to form ranks or perform maneuvers even in joint student-cadet events on the next-door VMI parade ground (and even though most of the students were veterans of the war), and otherwise totally devoted his life to peace and the betterment of the youths whose job it would be to rebuild. Lee's commitment to peace effectively spiked the machinations of a dozen of his subordinate generals in Virginia alone, including a nephew and two sons.

So tacking that person's name to that beautiful, hideous muscle-car and that flag does all of us a disservice, because it deliberately forgets the most important thing Robert E. Lee ever did, which was to surrender that flag, and to use his influence to stop the killing.

The problem is that absolutely nobody remembers or cares about that subtle point. Once again, Americans worship the flag-flying Robert E. Lee, the one whose brilliance led directly to the deaths of some 200,000 Americans on Virginia soil alone.

Keep that up and see where it gets us.

[R. P. McMurphy]

42. Shame on me . . .

and my ignorance on this subject. I did not know this about Robert E. Lee. Thank you for this informative post.

[Art_from_Ark]

103. R.E. Lee became president of what was to become

Washington and Lee University:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_and_Lee_University

[Roy Rolling]

44. good points

Very informative. But the issue on how to handle things like this remains. Making the flag into a hate symbol perpetuates the conflict, ignoring it makes it lose its power.

Morons who want to fly the flag to resurrect the conflict are the problem, and that is where the opposition should be directed without hampering the educational value of free speech.

For example, if my neightbor wants to hang a Nazi flag it is his right. But if he wants to recruit others to resurrect what the flag represents then action is appropriate. Society must know how to separate free speech from incitement to violence.

[sofa king]

45. I prefer the German approach. (Did I just say that?)

They of course have a similar problem, but they consider the very symbol to be an incitement to violence.

If I had my way, I would treat the battle-flag--and its siblings, all of which have found their way into various state flags and onto bumper stickers--as what it is, a symbol of oppression and an incitement to violence.

And I would remind those who wish to wave it that their own God-on-earth felt the same damned way.

Edit: In spite of what the Dukes of Hazzard would have us believe.

[grantcart]

65. Well written comment

He knew the war was a mistake. He didn't support slavery or seccession which made his decision to lead the army against the constitutional government all the more difficult to understand.

Lee's life is the ultimate Shakesperean tragedy of misplaced loyalty. If he had only given his ultimate loyalty to his true country and not to the state legislators in Virginia that only reluctantly agreed to seccession, many thinking it would lead to a negotiated settlement.

[Ter]

75. You blame Lee for the deaths?

Nothing rests on the guy in the WH who did nothing to prevent the war?

[sofa king]

77. Damned right I do.

Nobody else was offered the general-in-chief position of both armies, Federal and Confederate. So nobody else had the opportunity to choose a side and lend what we can now see was an unequaled talent for command at the top.

When Joseph E. Johnston was wounded at Seven Pines, Federal forces were around ten miles from Richmond and steadily advancing. Robert E. Lee got the job as Johnston's replacement because there was almost nobody else on hand with the seniority, the experience, and the Virginia credentials needed to lead the Confederate forces in Virginia.

After that, Lee commanded in twelve battles that would have filled a football stadium's stands with combatants, and in every one of them more Americans died than at Pearl Harbor. Virtually all of those single battles had more American casualties than our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Gulf War and the Spanish-American war combined.

Five of them killed or wounded twenty thousand Americans in three days or less. This at a time when the population of the United States in 1860 was one-tenth what it is today, so you can add a zero to each of those casualty totals to get an idea of what a comparable disaster would be like today.

By my guess, had Lee lost any one of of the following battles: Second Manassass, Antietam, Chancellorsville, the Wilderness, Spostylvania, Cold Harbor, or the non-battle at Mine Run (well over 100,000 total casualties, by the way), there was a clear and simple way for the United States to go on to win the war in a matter of days or weeks.

Lee's army was the only thing protecting the entire political framework of the Confederacy, about 40% of all the food the Confederacy ate, about 40% of all the salt the Confederacy needed, about 40% of all the black powder made in the Confederacy, virtually all of the heavy weapons manufacturing and most of the rifles, its shipbuilding industry, and a disproportionate percentage of the fledgling nation's railroad mileage. When Lee finally did lose, the war drew to a close within two months.

So hell yeah, I blame Lee. These are just some of the things Lee could have done to save lives and change the course of history:

* He could have sat the war out and not lent his skills to the side that desperately needed him. (The one guy who graduated ahead of Lee at West Point did just that.) Incompetent generals outnumbered good ones in the Confederate army by many times. The chances that a Magruder, Huger, or Whiting would have weaseled his way to the top--and quickly lost the war--were good without Lee in the mix.

* He could have accepted the invitation to prosecute the war against the South, and probably made the war shorter.

* He could have explored the possibility of peace terms upon taking command after Seven Pines.

* He could have been less adept at killing, lost any one of the battles I mentioned above, and concluded the war six months to two and a half years earlier than it did.

* He could have made known his early assessment that the war could not be won--he was kicking it about in his notes in mid-1862, nearly three years before the war ended--and encouraged the Confederates to sue for peace.

So hell yes, that guy has more American blood on his hands than any other figure in history. More than Emperor Hirohito, more than King George III, more than Hitler. His attempt at reconciliation is the most important thing he did.

And what the fuck does it matter now when we've collectively decided to forget that most important part? He's just a killer now.

[sofa king]

84. I made some mistakes up there.

This sentence is incorrect:

Virtually all of those single battles had more American casualties than our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Gulf War and the Spanish-American war combined.

Forgive me, that's just wrong. What I meant to say was deaths, not casualties, which include killed, wounded, and missing. But even then the 5000 or so Americans who died in those other wars outnumber all but the most sanguine Civil War battles. If one takes into account the fact that the five-year survival rate for a wounded Civil War soldier was very poor, while that of a modern American soldier is quite good, then maybe.

This does not otherwise diminish the scope of the tragedy wrought by the Civil War and brought to its highest pitch by Robert E. Lee in particular.

[sofa king]

85. Here is another way of looking at it.

On the outskirts of Richmond in June, 1862, Joseph E. Johnston was in the process of getting beat in exactly the same way he was whipped by Sherman in 1864 (Jeff Davis still had no confidence in Johnston's ability to defend a city in 1864, and replaced him with John B. Hood, who promptly lost Atlanta).

McClellan was on the verge of being able to use his superior numbers and firepower to "advance by position," as I believe Lee put it, under the cover of his heavy artillery.

So at that time, going from what we know actually did happen in 1865 when the Union finally did succeed in invading Virginia and taking Richmond, the war was two months away from potentially ending when Johnston was wounded.

Johnston knew his wounding was beneficial to the South: "No sir! The shot that struck me down is the very best that has been fired for the Southern cause yet. For I possess in no degree the confidence of our government, and now they have in my place one who does possess it (R.E. Lee), and who can accomplish what I never could have done--the concentration of our armies for the defence of the capital of the Confederacy." (Freeman, Lee's Lieutenants, v. 1, p. 264)

The political importance of Richmond paled in comparison to the strategic, geographic, and economic importance it carried for the entire Confederacy--that is why the capital was moved there in 1861 (in part to ensure that the legislators would be close enough to the war zone to feel a sense of urgency).

Defending Richmond successfully, as Lee did for three summers running, is what kept the South in the war. No other part of the Confederacy was indispensable, as Johnston and Sherman proved. Only Lee's defense of Virginia allowed that war to continue.

So Lee deserves credit not only for all of the deaths in the bloodiest theater of the war, his own, but he also deserves credit for all of the Civil War deaths which occurred subsequent to his accession to command of the Army of Northern Virginia.

Going from that line of reasoning, about one percent of all Americans alive before the war died because Robert E. Lee was so damned good at what he did.

[CreekDog]

64. you know what? catering to people who fly the confederate flag is not necessary

that shouldn't need to be said, but well, some people leave me thinking that often.

[arely staircase]

71. i come from deep southern scots-irish stock (mexican too, but that isnt relevant)

my great-great grandfather was on the confederate side at vicksburgh. he owned no slaves, but fought for "the cause". whatever happened to him in that dreadfull seige affected him for life. nevertheless, i see that banner at worst as the klan flag and at best the discredited banner of a defeated slaveocracy. no my ancestor owned no slaves - but the poor always do the fighting for the rich. i doubt many american soldiers killed in iraq owned oil wells or stock in halliburton.

[hack89]

81. Lots of NASCAR fans in the Northeast

they hold a big race every year in New Hampshire. My father in law live on Cape Cod his entire life has was a huge fan.

[KamaAina]

90. NASCAR races in such redneck/Confederate flag strongholds as New Hampshire, Michigan and SoCal

they even have a road race here in the Bay Area, for Pete's sake.

[Johnson20]

99. What's a redneckTer? Please define one or two for me. Have you ever been to a NASCAR race?

Personally, I don't like to define people by their color.

[mmonk]

111. I think the ones you are thinking of have traded their's in for yellow

don't tread on me flags.

[flexnor]

2. in 20 years, people will be afraid to speak or make eye contact in public nt

[Major Hogwash]

3. Why is that?

I don't see the connection at all.

[flexnor]

5. because

[caseymoz]

20. I take that as a verbal equivalent of not meeting eye contact.

Gee, you were right. Just off by twenty years.

[rhett o rick]

9. Is this the domino theory coming back? Like, if we cant stop communism in Viet Nam

it will take over the world.

[2ndAmForComputers]

15. I see this news displeases you.

And THAT pleases me.

The news, too.

[provis99]

7. hey neo-Confederates,

[boppers]

21. You can't even wave that flag in a confederate "state" that had civil war battles!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Picacho_Peak

[Brother Buzz]

11. The famed General Lee car?

Although the estimated number of General Lees used varies from different sources, according to Ben Jones ("Cooter" in the show), as well as builders involved with the show, 256 General Lees were used to film the series. Others claim about 321 were used in the series. Approximately seventeen still exist in various states of repair.

[MADem]

19. And you've got to figure a few hundred idiots with the same type vehicle replicated that offensive

paint scheme while that program was popular.

I could probably count on the thumb of one hand the number of times I watched that program from start to finish. I do remember the opening credits well, because back then, I would have to haul my tired ass out of the chair and stumble over to the television set to change the channel, if there was no one around who would respond to my "Turn this shit off" request (we didn't get remotes until the mid eighties...we tend to wear out/use shit up, and our old color tvs lasted forever).

[Brother Buzz]

22. Just Google image it and confirm your suspicions. Caution: BARF alert!!! LOL

[MADem]

25. My EYES.....

A Smart Car in the paint scheme? A lawn mower? A Halloween costume--a wearable vehicle, in essence? And page after page .... gaaaah!

[GReedDiamond]

23. Re: tvs lasting forever - I had Zenith teevees from the early 60s through the mid 70s...

...which I got from my stepfather, who was the lead electronics engineer for Zenith from the mid-50s into the mid-70s.

When I was growing up, we had state of the art Zenith tvs in all bedrooms and the living room.

As an eight year old in 1963, I had the Zenith "Space Command" remote control tv set in my room.

None of the Zenith tvs I had, from black & white to color, ever failed.

Wherever they are now, excepting if in the landfill, they probably still work.

"The Quality Goes In Before The Name Goes On"

Oh yeah, regarding the OP, the 1 percenter with one of the too-many-to-document "General Lee" cars should just offer the NASCAR folks an extra million or two, and he'd be able to complete his fantasy.

[MADem]

24. We had a Zenith "portable" that was made of metal in the late 50s through the 60s

It weighed a ton, but it worked like a champ for over a decade--black and white of course, no remote. We had an RCA "console" color TV with a slightly rounded screen; that damn thing didn't die until the mid-eighties! I probably could have fixed it, but I wanted a remote. None of our TVs came with one!

[GReedDiamond]

27. The kids today don't know what they're missing...

...the idea of really great, compelling black & white teevee shows is crazy, I tell ya!

So sorry you did not have the "Space Command"

[MADem]

30. I'll be honest, I was envious of that kind of "high tech" stuff!

There were a lot of us, though and that kind of luxury was out of our familial financial reach. Owing to the fact that we were international nomads for a while, we spent chunks of time without television at all (or having to rely on the TV of friends while in Europe) and as a consequence, we always glommed onto it when we had the opportunity!

[TheCruces]

33. I have a Sony that was (according to the back) built in Japan in 1990

The thing still works great. It's a 32"...it is heavy as hell. I actually got it because I moved into a third floor apartment and the previous tenant said she wasn't going to attempt moving it downstairs. It was definitely a nightmare getting it out when I moved.

It almost got left behind, but with a bit of redneck ingenuity, a big Coleman cooler on wheels, a jump rope and some bungee cord, we got it down.

[Beacool]

50. Sad to say, but we now don't make any TVs in this country.

[GReedDiamond]

74. Yeah, I know, tvs - and a lot of everything else, too...nt

[mahatmakanejeeves]

106. Someone else brings this up farther down....

In the kitchen, I still watch a 10" GE color set from the late 70s or early 80s. It was built in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia. It needs a convergence. Your stepfather would have known what that meant; it's an adjustment of the circuit driving the picture tube. No problem, as there's a copy of the TV's schematic included with the set, in a little box on the inside.

I have a digital converter box attached to it, so it brings in everything I need to see. One knob is for UHF and another for VHF, but it's set for keeps on channel 4 now.

My first TV was a 19" black and white tube-type Zenith, which I bought in the fall of 1969.

Best wishes.

[Beartracks]

17. Just two gold ol' boys, never meanin' no harm. n/t

[Ikonoklast]

35. They were supposed to be Jewish?

Wow, learn sumpin' new every day!


I can just hear their mother now, "When are you two going to stop jumping that facacta car around, finish medical school, meet some nice girls and make me a grandmother?"

"And your cousin always was such a tramp, just like her mother."

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

29. pfft...it was no match for the Batmobile, anyway

I think even the Beverly Hillbillies' truck could outrun it.

[MADem]

31. Either vehicle in your post would be a better choice! nt

[Kurmudgeon]

39. Good luck keeping Granny strapped to her seat while jumping a canyon though....

[HopeHoops]

41. I don't agree with displaying the Confederate flag, but that car is an icon.

It wouldn't be the General Lee without the flag. How is it different from the two cars from The Munsters or the Back to the Future DeLorean? I actually agree with their concern, but that was one kick ass car, flag or not, and to have the original is pretty awesome - especially if it still runs. And how the hell are you going to make NASCAR more inclusive when the majority of the fans boycott "The Dixie Chicks"???

[vitoponzini]

43. The Flag ? The Flag !!

This battle to display the Confederate flag here or there that brings battle cries from both sides just keeps throwing gasoline on the fire which should as years go by where both sides should draw a line in the sand , duke it out and may the best man win.

Those that have the position to ban the Confederate flag should do a little more investigation of the flags "TRUE" history and also investigate and bring forth to the general public there are other symbols from fraternal groups that have a impact on race relations.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

46. Are you saying the pit crews should NOT wear KKK robes and masks?

The "true" history of the flag is no longer relevant. it is now linked to ideas of white supremacy, at least in enough minds that NASCAR wants to avoid it.

On the General Lee, it's nothing that a can of orange paint can't fix.

Edit to add: That "line in the sand" thing, that was done about 150 years ago. And welcome to DU III.

[AwareOne]

47. I'm native American

and I insist that the American flag be banned from all events as it is a symbol of geoncide against my people. Anyone who displays that flag is a hate filled racist bigot.

[LanternWaste]

96. I believe symbols are interpreted

I believe symbols are interpreted as such by demographics rather than mere individuals.

"Anyone who displays that flag is a hate filled racist bigot..." And if the time comes in which American demographics dictate that the US flag is indeed racist and bigoted, we may begin that national conversation...

[Beacool]

48. Political correctness overkill.

I understand the objection of many people when it comes to flying the Confederate flag in a state's capitol building, but on the General Lee at a NASCAR event????

Please........





"The General Lee" sung by Johnny Cash

[Gormy Cuss]

78. Political correctness is meaningless in this context. It's a brand marketing issue.

NASCAR is distancing itself from a symbol of the Confederacy probably because its marketing data show that identifying with only that region will inhibit their ability to expand the fan base.

[greyl]

49. Cover the roof with a white sheet.

Problem solved.

[Mopar151]

51. Just as well

The association of the Confederate flag with this movie/TV car is unfortunate at best - The Stars and Bars is not the reason this car is an icon to kids of all ages, but it's a good reason to de-emphasize the association with NASCAR. It's not just "political correctness", either - there are hundreds of historically significant cars around that would be more suitable as pace cars, especially given the NASCAR Hall of Fame starting up. To a true NASCAR fan, this would be far cooler than an oft-copied and cloned TV/movie car

[Blue_Tires]

61. That was my question as well...

There are countless examples of REAL, easy-to-obtain historic stock cars that would have been a better idea...

The General Lee has as much to do with NASCAR as Herbie or Christine or K.I.T.T. or ChittyChittyBangBang

[Mopar151]

66. Ya think the graphics guy at the TV studio may have seen Richie's car?

Predated the "General Lee" by a decade or so. The "NY Snowplow Orange" #61 is more of an icon to a generation of NASCAR fans than the faked-up TV car.
If it's gotta be an orange Dodge Charger driven by a nail-tough redneck and prepared by a canny wizard - I nominate the #71 K&K Dodge driven by Bobby Issac and massaged by Harry Hyde.

[Blue_Tires]

68. Or, if that is too expensive/rare to use:

You can get something pretty close to authentic here dirt cheap, (relatively speaking): http://www.hscrs.com/home.php

Or god forbid GM/Ford/Dodge/Toyota would step up with an offering from their historic collections (or new car showroom)

I also laugh at the reporter calling it "the famed General Lee"...Years ago I read somewhere that on average an episode shoot of Dukes of Hazzard would destroy FOUR Chargers....

The irony is had Watson tried this in Richmond or Martinsville, no one would have batted an eyebrow...Hell, our governor and senate candidates would have asked to ride shotgun...

How have you been, anyway? Been keeping the rubber side down?

[Mopar151]

70. Offical pace car is sponsored by mfr., has lights 'n stuff

Usually driven by an ex-pro, is out for all cautions, etc. "Ceremonial" pace cars make a couple laps, go hide in the trailer again.

Penthouse to outhouse for me, just like usual. Too broke to run my own car, wrenching for my buddies - look in the motorsports group for video.

[raouldukelives]

52. Wasting massive amounts of fossil fuels

Driving in circles. Knowing what we now know. You'd really have to bear a grudge against nature to enjoy an event like that. Either that or be painfully oblivious to the legacy they are leaving to the planet.
Yeah, it's the latter.

[unionworks]

53. I drive a '92 Crown Vic

with a police pursuit v-8, frame on construction, union made. Why? Because these were built as fleet vehicles, they last twice the length of the life of an ordinary car, and cost half as much to repair. The trade off is in fuel economy. With the employment situation here in Pa, I can't afford expensive car repairs or having to replace the automotive version of a disposable lighter every few years.

[Mopar151]

58. Why'nt cha go hate on somebody else - or kick the rearview mirror out of your car in solidarity.

The rearview mirror was developed to save the weight of a riding mechanic, and was instrumental in winning the 1st Indy 500. Look, much as you would like to make racers and fans out to be some sort of orcs, we're really not - think of this as science fair for car geeks.

[raouldukelives]

59. No disrespect intended Mopar

I may be a certified nut. I feel the same way about most sporting events these days. Loading planes full of people to fly around the country and stick balls in holes or spike them in end zones is great entertainment but at a certain point it becomes unsustainable.
For me it all comes down to if I believe in Climate science or I don't. Since I do I also believe we haven't seen the effects of pollution created from 1970 to our present day. I have a bad feeling about it. I hope it's all rainbows but I have a sickening feeling it's not going to be pretty.
Faced with that knowledge and imho, anything that isn't being done to help the children of tomorrow breathe a breath of fresh air or be able to enjoy a place like Yosemite in something other than a book is an act of cruelty against them and nature.
Believe me I'd much rather live in a world where what we do to it doesn't matter. The world my ancestors lived in where industry for the sake of industry was a blessing. Most people in the world still live that way. So, may be a nut but it's what I believe to be the truth and my moral compass has to point me this way.

[Mopar151]

67. Your analysys of elephants vs. circus is correct

It ain't what the elephants eat, its movin' the circus around that costs. Racing is not a lot better or worse than other sports in this regard, whether on the national stage or at the local participant level - golf and fishing would be good examples.

And racing is where engineers go to get their freak on. Our sport gives back, and has since it's inception. Technology may let us share the circus around with less cost and a smaller live crowd, and we should pursue that. But we can't let perfect be the enemy of better, and folks love to come out and see the lions.

[LanternWaste]

97. I imagine that the same may be said of most Americans on an individual level

I imagine that the same may be said of most Americans on an individual level as we have air conditioning, deep freezers, heating, computers, etc...

US energy usage - 389 watts per person
Democratic Republic of Congo energy usage - 10 watts per person

I imagine that a citizen of Congo would describe you in much the same manner you described NASCAR (our citizen from Congo says of you, "are painfully oblivious to the legacy you are leaving to the planet.&quot .

Unless of course we then begin to justify and rationalize the excesses of our own usage, and in doing so, hold others to a higher standard than we hold ourselves.

[raouldukelives]

110. Absolutely. The average American is painfully unaware

of the consequences of their actions. Whether it be cheering on Wall St gains which only equal a further drain on the worlds resources and it's environment through rampant speculation or driving Hummers with "Keep Tahoe Blue" stickers on them in the Sierra and wondering why it isn't snowing like it used to.
I feel for the Congo. As much as a heartless American can at least. I see the diminishing jungle and loss of species and have to sit knowing that it was our excesses of the 20th century that helped make it all possible. As it continues today with strip mining the land for rare minerals for our beloved Foxconn gadgets.
At least our captains of industry of old could claim ignorance of the effects of massive pollution and destruction of nature.
At the end of the day at least we as individuals can say we tried to stand against the tide of selfishness and greed in our own feeble way.

[Brettongarcia]

54. Millions of Americans died, to take down the confederate flag. Let's leave it down, and out.

Millions of good soldiers died to end the confederracy and slavery. The confederacy, and slavery, were a horrible thing. And those who continue to fly the confederate flag, or to display it prominently, are an outrage, and an insult to humanity.

This flag and those who stood for it, were defeated in one of the most costly wars America ever took (proportionately). And for many years, flying this, the enemy flag, was rightly made illegal.

Probably? Prominently displaying it, in any positive light, should still be illegal today as well. It is the flag of an illegal insurgency.

It should be banned. In the same way that flying the Nazi flag is illegal in Germany.

[UTUSN]

55. R#17 & K for, this topic reminds of "Slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch..."

[eyewall]

57. I agree, I don't like seeing that flag anywhere

NASCAR will probably provoke a movement of "The South Shall Rise Again" assholes, and fuel all of the anti-politically correct sentiment, in spite of their good intentions.

They're probably still smarting over the Joe the Camel wars.

edit: I should add, I would never have thought of this, or expected it. I consider that car to be a TV show prop and I know the show was very popular, so the flap seems a bit contrived.

[treestar]

82. Yeah, that flag - we should all let it sink

"The South shall rise again" assholes need to know they are fringe cultists, not think they are getting somewhere.

It's a matter of taste and judgment.

[eyewall]

86. yes, not to mention the "grow up" factor.

it's the 21st century fer chrissakes.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

60. So a klan meet without the hoods? Besides that car

A humorous part or pop culture

[Mopar151]

69. No, not a Klan function

Most of the supremacist faithful are far too paranoid and socially dysfunctional to get near a major sporting event. Posession of a Confederate flag by some drunks in the infield does'nt mean the suits are any less image conscious, or more racist, than any other "sport"

[Warren Stupidity]

79. I'm opposed to the promotion of racism.

[Taverner]

107. Awesome - however be prepared for the teabaggers to turn this into a holy war