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Catholic School Fires Gay Teacher After Wedding. (Original Post) elleng Aug 2013 OP
Because Marriage Is Immoral Treant Aug 2013 #1
That is sad. I hope they reconsider. hrmjustin Aug 2013 #2
Keep praying for it skepticscott Aug 2013 #25
The Pope et al can't get out of the teachings of Leviticus warrant46 Aug 2013 #37
I hope things move in a more gay friendly way. hrmjustin Aug 2013 #38
Unfortunately, protections of sexuality aren't set yet sakabatou Aug 2013 #3
Catholic schools are by definition private Yo_Mama Aug 2013 #33
What would Jesus say? rdharma Aug 2013 #4
Ditto, elleng Aug 2013 #5
No idea since I cant pretend to know his mind either way cstanleytech Aug 2013 #7
You're not fooling anyone! rdharma Aug 2013 #8
Yup, specifically the 1st. cstanleytech Aug 2013 #10
Huh? rdharma Aug 2013 #11
I am refering to laws like DOMA. cstanleytech Aug 2013 #12
But you're for firing on the basis of religious beliefs? rdharma Aug 2013 #13
No, I am for the first amendment. cstanleytech Aug 2013 #15
The !st calls for firing on religious grounds? rdharma Aug 2013 #16
Its called the Establishment Clause, look it up. cstanleytech Aug 2013 #20
Uh, it's called discrimination....... not religion. rdharma Aug 2013 #27
If its a private school being run by a religion and it involves the teachings of that religion then cstanleytech Aug 2013 #30
You're right..... but it was based on the 1964 Civil Rights Act...... rdharma Aug 2013 #31
Then they shouldn't be tax exempt dbackjon Aug 2013 #39
*shrug* I disagree with most of the tax exceptions given to churches however cstanleytech Aug 2013 #40
SC probably doesn't agree with you Yo_Mama Aug 2013 #34
But the Establishment clause is offset by the free exercise clause happyslug Aug 2013 #28
They don't find it repugnant to be tax exempt, I suspect, and that needs to change. jtuck004 Aug 2013 #17
Mmmm bet they would scream if that happened. nt cstanleytech Aug 2013 #21
I agree with you, think they should have all the free speech they can handle. But it ain't free, jtuck004 Aug 2013 #22
I dunno, who paid him to teach? jberryhill Aug 2013 #26
for that matter what did the Pope recently say? olddad56 Aug 2013 #35
If you don't want to be arbitrarily fired from your job in a religious extremist school... SylviaD Aug 2013 #6
"If every good teacher abandoned the religious extremist school systems, ....... rdharma Aug 2013 #9
Judge not lest ye be judged. Fearless Aug 2013 #14
Gee I wonder how many priest have they fired for being gay? nt bonniebgood Aug 2013 #18
Jesus lived an alternative lifestyle with 12 other guys Snake Plissken Aug 2013 #19
This from the Cult that hides child molesters. SoapBox Aug 2013 #23
Didn't those assholes listen to Francis's speech in Brazil? nt MADem Aug 2013 #24
You see, JimboBillyBubbaBob Aug 2013 #29
The Roberts' Supreme Court says it's legal for religious organizations to discriminate against gays. rdharma Aug 2013 #32
That was a decision about disability laws, but yes it probably applies in this case Yo_Mama Aug 2013 #36

Treant

(1,968 posts)
1. Because Marriage Is Immoral
Thu Aug 1, 2013, 11:03 PM
Aug 2013

Well, I mean, if you have a marriage that's immoral by their standards. Like a post-menopausal one. One post-divorce. That kind of...

...what do you mean those two are OK?

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
33. Catholic schools are by definition private
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 07:01 PM
Aug 2013

and religious. Even if there is an orientation-based anti-discrimination statute in effect, it doesn't affect religious institutions.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
4. What would Jesus say?
Thu Aug 1, 2013, 11:17 PM
Aug 2013

Seriously? This is SO fuggin' wrong!

I'm a straight atheist...... but I find the new testament teachings of the Jesus Christ to be admirable.

If he were real, he would be very disappointed with decision to fire this teacher. In fact, I think he would be tossing a few tables over at St. Lucy's!

cstanleytech

(26,273 posts)
7. No idea since I cant pretend to know his mind either way
Thu Aug 1, 2013, 11:50 PM
Aug 2013

nor anyone else's.
What I do know is that if its a private school and one especially being run by or for a religion that they have the ability under the constitution to do this if its their belief that homosexuals are "immoral" though I personally find their reason for firing the guy to be repugnant.

cstanleytech

(26,273 posts)
10. Yup, specifically the 1st.
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 12:04 AM
Aug 2013

I just wish people would also keep religion out of politics as well because passing laws for religious reasons is as repugnant imo.

cstanleytech

(26,273 posts)
12. I am refering to laws like DOMA.
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 12:12 AM
Aug 2013

That was largely proposed and passed based due to the religious beliefs of those in office and it should never have been passed let alone allowed to stand for so many years by the courts.

cstanleytech

(26,273 posts)
20. Its called the Establishment Clause, look it up.
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:32 AM
Aug 2013

Now explain to us all how do you think government can get around that to force a school being run by a religion to not fire someone for religious reasons?

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
27. Uh, it's called discrimination....... not religion.
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 09:51 AM
Aug 2013

And no....... that's not covered in the establishment clause.

cstanleytech

(26,273 posts)
30. If its a private school being run by a religion and it involves the teachings of that religion then
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 05:53 PM
Aug 2013

the government does in fact run afoul of that clause or atleast somewhat.
Its similar to how the boy scouts were allowed to exclude gay scouts and gay scout masters.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
31. You're right..... but it was based on the 1964 Civil Rights Act......
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 06:34 PM
Aug 2013

..... the religious exemption.

This exemption was challenged all the way up to the SCOTUS

"The interest of society in the enforcement of employment discrimination statutes is undoubtedly important,” Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. wrote in a decision that was surprising in both its sweep and its unanimity. “But so, too, is the interest of religious groups in choosing who will preach their beliefs, teach their faith and carry out their mission.”

The Roberts Supreme Court......... figures.

cstanleytech

(26,273 posts)
40. *shrug* I disagree with most of the tax exceptions given to churches however
Sat Aug 3, 2013, 11:34 AM
Aug 2013

its a decent carrot and stick to keep them out of politics if its enforced which the IRS has imo been lax on enforcing.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
34. SC probably doesn't agree with you
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 07:08 PM
Aug 2013
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/12/us/12scotus-text.html?_r=0

Hosanna-Tabor was decided unanimously against the EEOC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosanna-Tabor_Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_and_School_v._Equal_Employment_Opportunity_Commission

The ruling seemed to amount to a decision that a teaching position with religious duties in a private religious school fell under the ministerial exemption. I'm sure there will be more cases about where such lines are drawn, but the First Amendment includes the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise clause, both of which preclude religion in public schools, but protect private religious education.
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
28. But the Establishment clause is offset by the free exercise clause
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 10:33 AM
Aug 2013
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof



Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

These two clauses are interrelated and off set each other to a degree. The establishment clause says they will be no FEDERAL Religion (Till the 14th amendment was adopted after the Civil War, the Federal Bill of Rights only applied to the Federal Government not the States) AND the Free Exercise clause forbade the Federal Government from imposing any restrictions on any religion.

Now the Supreme Court has had problems with these two clauses, but only since the 14th amendment was passed (and mostly since the decision to incorporate the First Amendment into the 14th starting in the 1920s). If a State passes a law that bans something, that a religion also ban, is that a violation of the Establishment clause? The Court has generally said no, for that would mean Murder, which is banned by most religions, could not be made a crime for that would be establishment of religion.

Thus the Court has taken a policy to look at the law being challenged and if any reason could show it is NOT religious in nature, it would be upheld as NOT being a violation of the Establishment clause (Thus the various restrictions on abortion have been held to be constitutional even if based in Religion beliefs).

Please note the Right to Abortion is independent of the First, it has been upheld as a right under Constitution that existed at the time of passage of the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights is NOT an exclusive list and thus Rights exist that are NOT listed in the Bill of Rights. The Right to Abortion existed at the time the Bill of Rights was adopted and as such is one of those rights preserved even through it was not listed under the Bill of Rights. Please note like most of the Rights under the Bill of Rights the right to an abortion is a right subject to reasonable restrictions (in fact Roe vs Wade restrictions on when a state can impose restrictions, followed the English Common Law Restrictions that existed at the time of the Bill of Rights. Those Restrictions were ancient, but appears to follow the restrictions mentioned by St Augustine in the 400s. St Augustine drew his restrictions from the practice of ancient Israel, Greece and Rome. St Augustine restrictions were the Catholic Rule on Abortions, till pressure from the Medical Community, who wanted to take aver births and abortions from mid-wives where it had been for over 2000 years, lead to the change to the modern Catholic Doctrine in 1869).

The Free Exercise Clause has also come under attack by the Supreme Court, the Peyote case is the classic case. In the Peyote certain Native America Tribes said the federal ban on Peyote interfered with their religion. The Supreme Court actually accepted that argument but then rule that if a ban in general in nature, not aimed at a particular religion, it is still effective even on practitioners of that religion. Thus the Federal Ban on Peyote was constitutional even if it interfered with the religion of Native Americans.

On top of this is the Religious discrimination ban added to the 1964 Civil Rights act in the 1990s. Since the 1990s one's religion is a protected class of people (Which include atheism as a religion, the Supreme Court has long ruled Religion is more then a belief or non belief in God, it is a world view, thus under the first Atheism is a religion). As a protected class, it can be argued that a law protecting Gays from discrimination is off set by the Civil Rights Act protection of one's religious beliefs. Furthermore, as a general rule, most State Civil Rights Acts provides exemptions based on religion (The Federal Civil Rights Acts do NOT make being gay a protected class so it is not a factor in this case).

Thus, this couple first has to get around any restrictions imposed by the California Civil Rights Acts as to religion, then get around the Free Exercise Clause of the US Constitution. Not impossible, but I doubt he will prevail.
 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
17. They don't find it repugnant to be tax exempt, I suspect, and that needs to change.
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:12 AM
Aug 2013

Then they can go about their bigoted business as they wish.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
22. I agree with you, think they should have all the free speech they can handle. But it ain't free,
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:51 AM
Aug 2013

and if they want to be exempt from paying for it they should follow the same rules as everyone else.

Else...buh-bye.

SylviaD

(721 posts)
6. If you don't want to be arbitrarily fired from your job in a religious extremist school...
Thu Aug 1, 2013, 11:43 PM
Aug 2013

either don't be gay or don't work for a religious extremist school.

Get a job in a California public school, one of the most open and diverse school systems in the USA. If every good teacher abandoned the religious extremist school systems, they would have to shut down.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
9. "If every good teacher abandoned the religious extremist school systems, .......
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 12:02 AM
Aug 2013

........they would have to shut down."

RIIIIIIIGHT!

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
32. The Roberts' Supreme Court says it's legal for religious organizations to discriminate against gays.
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 06:40 PM
Aug 2013

“The interest of society in the enforcement of employment discrimination statutes is undoubtedly important,” Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. wrote in a decision that was surprising in both its sweep and its unanimity. “But so, too, is the interest of religious groups in choosing who will preach their beliefs, teach their faith and carry out their mission.”

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
36. That was a decision about disability laws, but yes it probably applies in this case
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 07:11 PM
Aug 2013

It's very different from public schools. The firing certainly upset the student body, though.

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