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alp227

(32,006 posts)
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 01:32 AM Aug 2013

US 'deeply concerned' over freeing of Mexico drug lord Rafael Caro Quintero

Source: The Guardian

The White House has waded into a row over the release of a notorious Mexican drug lord who was convicted of murdering a US Drug Enforcement Administration agent.

In a statement Sunday, the Obama administration said it was "deeply concerned" over the case of Rafael Caro Quintero, who walked out of a Mexican prison on Friday, after serving 28 years of a 40-year sentence.

A Mexican federal court ordered his release on administrative grounds, saying he had been improperly tried in a federal court for state crimes.

Caro Quintero, 60, was released from a prison in the western state of Jalisco following the ruling. A founding member of one of Mexico's earliest and biggest drug cartels, Caro Quintero was convicted of the 1985 kidnapping, torture and killing of DEA agent Enrique "Kiki" Camarena.

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/11/mexico-frees-drugs-rafael-caro-quintero

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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MarkLaw

(204 posts)
1. This man was responsible for the death of so many people.
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 02:14 AM
Aug 2013

It's really sad. A history of criminalization made what should have been a personal issue into a huge criminal empire.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
2. If he was only smuggling
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 02:56 AM
Aug 2013

pot I would believe the agent was an unfortunate side effect of bad policy. If he was smuggling coke or heroin or meth/ephedrine ..I have to believe we must enforce a prohibition and fight the spread..offer free drug treatment/mental health services to anyone who wants or needs them. The higher the cartel member who is put away the more imbalance occurs..of coarse that is a short term benefit.

All that said, I find it hard to believe this wouldn't or couldn't so easily fall under federal jurisdiction considering the historical and prevalent creative interpretation of law in Mexico..if the will or pressure didn't exist..

 

MarkLaw

(204 posts)
7. Making something illegal has very little effect on usuage.
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 03:44 AM
Aug 2013

If people want something they will get it. Governing bodies should only become involved when one citizen violates the basic rights of another citizen/s. How one man chooses to deal with Life is his own religion, not mine or yours to ponder over.

Want people to use less narcotics? Make the world a more enjoyable place to be!

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
8. Do you have children? Do you feel that your children should be able to choose to use
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 04:05 AM
Aug 2013

addictive substances when they are, say, 17. I say 17 because that is for many children an age when they begin to explore what it is like to be an adult. We say that 17-year-olds tend to be rebellious. In fact, it isn't just 17-year-olds. Kids are very susceptible to peer pressure. They want to be accepted by the "in" crowd.

Addiction is a terrible illness. I do not support the idea that anyone has the right to freely use whatever drug they wish to use. That is especially true of people who use drugs and then drive or use heavy machinery or drugs or go out on the street. They endanger the lives of others and themselves.

No. Addiction is too great a threat to simply write off all drug enforcement.

Go to an inner-city hospital or court and watch how many patients or defendants in criminal cases and parties in the family law courts have drug problems or alcohol problems that have completely destroyed their lives.

Living not all that far from the Mexican border, I am disheartened at this news of the release of this heartless criminal.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
9. They already CAN choose addictive substances
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 04:46 AM
Aug 2013

Give me 20 dollars and 20 minutes and I can procure virtually any illegal drug you want.

Places that have decriminalized don't see particularly higher usage rates, because people who want to smoke meth are going to do it anyway. What they don't see is people and families and communities twice victimized by drugs -- once by the addiction, and a second time by the war on addiction.

If I were king for a day, I'd legalize them, tax the hell out of them, and use the revenue to fund treatment centers.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
10. Yes. Next question?
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 04:50 AM
Aug 2013

See, here's the thing. You say "I say 17 because that is for many children an age when they begin to explore what it is like to be an adult" so I'm guessing you realize that this is the age range where a lot of children experiment with drugs, correct?

Okay. well, here's the thing... they're illegal, and that hasn't stopped anyone from using them. I think that's pretty obvious, correct? So what does illegality do? Well, because your kid stuck a groady chemical into his vein, he's now looking at hard time in prison. Now just a question, which do you think will cause more damage to your child, trying out heroin, or spending fifteen years behind bars?

Now that's not to say addiction is a walk in the park, I've known addicts, for a variety of drugs. It's horrifying. But htey're addicts despite the drugs being illegal. The illegality did nothing to stop their access or their addiction. All it does is throw them into a cage if the law finds out about it. I can even make the argument that illegality makes addiction worse - an addict is, by definition also a criminal. Seeking treatment for addiction is seen as analogous to turning yourself in to the police. There's also the element of addiction being considered a character weakness, a personal failing that can be psyched out, rather than a chronic debilitating disease. To seek treatment in this culture is like telling the world, "I am a failure as a human being."

To to put it bluntly, knowing that if my kids are going to find a way to try drugs out if they decide they want to do so, I would rather they not instantly become criminals in the eyes of the law, deviants in the face of the culture, and condemned either to a back-and-forth between prison and parole while nursing an addiction they aren't likely to seek treatment for.

I've known too many people to believe that prohibition is the solution to the problem. It hasn't stopped the problem yet, and it's not going to. It's the wrong solution, and that applies for all drugs. Someone is going to get them, someone is going to use them, it's just going to happen. the intelligent response of, rather than militarizing hte police and building new prisons, funnel that money towards educations and treatment.

Also? About that "inner city" shit you've got? Guess what, I have been to those places. Have you? I've been to their analogues in suburbia and even the wild fucking hinterlands of Alaska. Know what I've discovered? Drug addiction is rife among all locales, all classes, all races, everyone takes an equal hit. You're not fooling anyone with your "inner city" code-words, JD - I wonder that you ever have.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
11. I live in the inner city -- about 5 miles from downtown L.A.
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 05:07 AM
Aug 2013

Actually, Riverside and San Bernardino counties vied with L.A. County for having the worst meth problem. It was terrible (at least a few years ago). A minor using drugs gets Juvenile Hall and the conviction is not made so public.

If the drugs were not as available as you describe, the kids would not get the drugs.

And treatment does not prevent kids from getting addicted. We need to keep drugs off the street.

Perhaps users who do not sell should be given alternative sentences. I have seen that in a drug court in LA County -- an alternative treatment sentence. It is, I think fairly common here, or was a few years ago. But dealers should fact stiff sentences and arrest in my opinion.

And since you cannot commit adults against their will without a court order, the only way that you can get serious users and addicts to go into rehab very often is with a court order -- usually from a criminal court.

Legalizing drugs and treating addicts rather than jailing them sounds great except that very often it is only the threat of a conviction that gets an addict to cooperate with rehab. That is the reality.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
13. Oh, I'm sure
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 06:46 AM
Aug 2013

Glendale's a tough town, man. Real tough. Sometimes the bars there don't have PBR in a can, so you have to settle for dos equis instead while convincing yourself this doesn't make you any less 'real.' I feel for you.

I kid. Point is, reflexive finger-pointing at "the inner city" is a little... obvious.

Anyway.

If the drugs were not available? Okay, so while we're on this track, let's figure out how to accomplish that, first. Perhaps have Gandalf ride by on Shadowfax, king of all horses, and snatch all the drugs away to dump them into the fires of Mount Doom! Hey, it's fantasy, so why not? If this is your starting point, it's no wonder the rest of what you come up with is flawed - foundations of sand, and all.

You really think that if we just make the laws harsher, the penalties stiffer, someday we'll reach the tipping point and drug use will cease? 'Cause short of public executions in the street, I don't think we can get much harsher. And drug use has been on a steady increase since we started this "war on drugs" in the mid-eighties. I have no idea if harsher laws are driving up the drug use rates, but they're certainly not dropping it!

Prohibition is just a failed policy. Whether it's alcohol, drugs or - if you're Saudi - bibles, it fails. There is always going to be someone running that blockade, there's always going to be a market. All prohibition does is as I said - fill prisons with bodies. it also ends up affecting those of us who don't partake, because the 'war on drugs' has led to police militarization and a public acceptance of the use of extreme force in all situations from law enforcement.

As for dealers... I'm sorry, but what the fuck do you think they are? Are they skulking monsters in your head, monstrous figures lurking in dark alleyways, forcing their black magic poison upon unsuspecting passersby? No, they're people who know that a prohibited item will fetch a higher price. Hmmm, flip maybe-meat at a wendys for eight-twenty-five an hour, or sell some powder for a three hundred dollar cut in a ten-minute transaction? Obviously the prohibitive law doesn't do much to stop that end of the market, either does it? One might argue that it actually strengthens it.

And yeah, when you threaten someone with years behind bars, getting savaged by inmates and guards alike, or rehab, they'll choose rehab. Does that mean that years behind bars being savaged by the other people there is a legitimate option? Absolutely not. You're effectively saying people have to be threatened and intimidated with grievous bodily and emotional harm at the hands of the state that has arbitrarily decided that their self-abuse is among the most terrible of crimes is a legitimate practice. In so doing, you frame treatment as a form of punishment, an alternative to beatings and trauma sure, but still punishment - and people avoid punishment by reflex.

If an addict does not want to be treated... then they don't get treated. Same as if someone wants to labor through some other disease. Do we bring the cops to drag cancer sufferers to the hospital, and hold them at gunpoint until they take treatment? Do we threaten our elders if they decide they don't want to choke down the liver pills this morning? Do we condemn HIV-positive people to a choice of either forced treatment or abuse at the hands of the state? Of course not, so why treat addicts like that? That comes from the framing of these peopel as bestial, as subhuman, as some sort of criminal underclass that needs punishment, rather than sick human beings who should be afforded the same dignity that we would afford any other person suffering a condition beyond their control... even if they decide they don't want to seek treatment for it.

You call yourself a "realist," but the reality is that the war on drugs is not reducing drug use, is making our own police forces a danger to our communities, is sapping our treasuries to build and fund prisons, and warps our cultural perceptions of our fellow human beings. As a "realist" you are buried in the fantasy that we can solve the problem just by beating people up, basically.

Yes, if there were a perfect world where there were just no drugs, no addiction, nothing like that, that's where I'd want my kids to be. Hell, I'd settle just world a world without alcoholism, that alone could be a fucking paradise. But that's not the world we have, and it's really never going to be. With that as the working reality, I stand by what I said.

 

MarkLaw

(204 posts)
12. Making the drug illegal isn't going to prevent a 17yo from needing or wanting it.
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 06:17 AM
Aug 2013

Last edited Mon Aug 12, 2013, 07:58 AM - Edit history (2)

Most drug use is casual, not due to an underlying addiction. Alcohol, caffeine, cocaine, marijuana even heroin all can be used quite safely and without detriment. Currently our children are more prone to overdosing on caffeine from energy drinks than they are likely to become addicted to heroin or cocaine(both of which are ridiculously cost prohibitive). Alcoholism is and most likely always will be more of a burden than drug addiction ever will be.

Drug use is up to the individual. It is their body, not yours. The argument that maybe drugs should remain prohibited for those under 18, well maybe, but i doubt that is the best approach. Providing children with honest information usually works best.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
3. There're a lot of people responsible for enormously more than this, that we know about and go free.
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 03:03 AM
Aug 2013

Dick Cheney would merrily march lead. Extremely gratified, perhaps more gratified than any Dem on the planet, by how he got a get-out-of-jail free card in exchange for being a neocon right to the wall. The .1% rewards the .1%.

Response to alp227 (Original post)

 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
6. US 'deeply concerned'
Mon Aug 12, 2013, 03:40 AM
Aug 2013

.
.
.

well - the USA knows what to do with countries they are 'deeply concerned' with.

BOMB THE SHIT OUT OF THEM!

Seems to be SOP.

CC

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