Near-death study: Brains explode with activity as heart stops

[IDemo]

Source: sfgate

“Near-death experiences” or the sudden rush of a feeling of peace, seeing dead relatives/angels, a light at the end of a tunnel … These experiences – if the explosion of activity in brains of rats as they die is any indication – might just be physical noise.

In a new study released this week – “Surge of neurophysiological coherence and connectivity in the dying brain” – researchers found that just as a rat’s heart stops for the last time, its brain lights up like a Christmas tree in a power surge.

“In this study,” the researchers write, “we performed continuous electroencephalography in rats undergoing experimental cardiac arrest and analyzed changes in power density, coherence, directed connectivity, and cross-frequency coupling. We identified a transient surge of synchronous gamma oscillations that occurred within the first 30 s after cardiac arrest and preceded isoelectric electroencephalogram.”

In other words, they killed the rats and just as their hearts beat for the last time their brains looked like hyperactive consciousness, or all the signs of conscious brain activity at a high intensity.

Read more: http://blog.sfgate.com/hottopics/2013/08/13/near-death-study-brains-explode-with-activity-as-heart-stops/

[mtasselin]

1. so

So you are saying that this might happen with the gop, just asking.

[freshwest]

22. Impossible. No heart or brains. All guts and asses. Likely foam at the mouth at the end. Just sayin'

No, not gonna be nice.

[Evasporque]

57. GOP Brains explode from near thought experiences....nt

[freshwest]

61. 'near thought experiences' LOL!!

[Kablooie]

82. Ha ha ha! The GOP has brains. Ha ha ha! You crack me up!

[TwilightGardener]

2. I thought this had been pretty well assumed already.

Sorry, rats.

[closeupready]

3. Bad reporting, IMHO. "Physical noise" - is that even a clinical term?

Never heard it before. Also, it doesn't appear the researchers used that term.

No, IMO, the reporter simply is reading into the study what he/she wants to confirm.

[ashling]

12. If a rat dies in the forest

and there are no other rats around, does it have a near death experience ...?

[progressoid]

21. Tyical media dumbing down of science.

Here's the study:

Abstract

The brain is assumed to be hypoactive during cardiac arrest. However, the neurophysiological state of the brain immediately following cardiac arrest has not been systematically investigated. In this study, we performed continuous electroencephalography in rats undergoing experimental cardiac arrest and analyzed changes in power density, coherence, directed connectivity, and cross-frequency coupling. We identified a transient surge of synchronous gamma oscillations that occurred within the first 30 s after cardiac arrest and preceded isoelectric electroencephalogram. Gamma oscillations during cardiac arrest were global and highly coherent; moreover, this frequency band exhibited a striking increase in anterior–posterior-directed connectivity and tight phase-coupling to both theta and alpha waves. High-frequency neurophysiological activity in the near-death state exceeded levels found during the conscious waking state. These data demonstrate that the mammalian brain can, albeit paradoxically, generate neural correlates of heightened conscious processing at near-death.


http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/08/08/1308285110

[RKP5637]

24. +++ !,000 +++ n/t

[olddad56]

29. or dumbing down spirituality. Maybe this is just what happens in the body as the soul leaves it.

[boguspotus]

34. My first thought about this.

Thanks!

[Hekate]

43. Some in the media like to play science against spirituality, as though it must be one or the other

Especially in their headlines and intro paragraphs. And a lot of readers fall for it. It's like there just has to be a boogyman in here somewhere: science has to be anti-religion/spirituality and religion/spirituality has to be anti-science. No they don't.

In my long experience, it's a false dichotomy. I believe in the spiritual realm just as I believe in science, even though they are two very different lenses for viewing the world and interacting with the world.

As to why our brains would light up like a Christmas tree on our way out, and as to why survivors would return with such similar stories, I believe that IS a true spiritual experience and that because we are embodied we experience it with our brains. Same reason we experience the world with our bodies and our sense organs. It's how we are made. What else would we experience it with, as long as we remain embodied?

Hekate

[didact]

65. Bravo!

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”

[AverageJoe90]

77. I've noticed the same thing, and agree!

TBH, I may be a rationalist(perhaps to a fault with some subjects, i.e. climate change for example), but I'm also open-minded towards more esoteric stuff as well, such as NDEs, and other stuff of a similar vein. Indeed, I've heard recounts of stories on TV & other places, which, if true(and I suspect many of them are), would absolutely defy our current mainstream understanding of conciousness....and that's just with NDEs, at that!

There are still so many things that mainstream science is still piecing together; I honestly believe that quantum theories, could begin, and may already have begun, maybe, to build a few bridges towards what we consider the hard scientific and the esoteric/spiritual.

[EOTE]

94. Thank you for summing up my feelings so eloquently.

The either-or type thinking we typically hear is so unnecessary. As if explaining that something happens in the brain proves that a soul isn't involved in some way. Over the past few years, I've taken to thinking of the brain as a very powerful computer/receiver. Any computer or receiver is pretty much worthless without some kind of input device.

[snooper2]

48. LOL

"The SOUL leaves it"



Lets start with the basics, is the "soul" made up of matter?

[hedgehog]

54. What is the soul? Is there such a thing as a personal identity that exists after the physical body

is gone? By definition, would any scientific experiment be able to prove or disprove the existence of a soul? How are the brain, the mind and the self different or the same? How would a spiritual experience become known to the physical body sans brain activity?

[snooper2]

56. When there are no more energy to make your brain work

You die..

Your thoughts are gone, memories, everything...

I know it sucks but that is what it is- Be happy you are here at all, thanks to Supernova many billions of years ago-

[KatyMan]

60. ^^^^This!^^^ n/t

n/t

[didact]

66. Glad to see you got it all figured out.

Keep us posted!

[woodsprite]

105. Just because you unplug a toaster and it can't "toast" bread anymore

doesn't mean that the electricity which powered it has ceased to exist. It's ceased to exist within that unit, and that unit ceases to function, but not the energy that powered it. That's what I have always equated to the 'soul', and I believe that energy still exists after the body becomes "unplugged". I've always thought that, even before I realized how much religion/science manipulate people.

[KittyWampus]

108. Dear Woodsprite- I like the analogy of a car. When we exit a car we don't cease to exist.

Our bodies are our vehicles.

This helps when contemplating the term "Atman" and here is a glyph to illustrate this.
Especially note the use of black&white-polarity-electromagnetism:

[gtar100]

139. I was a drop of water that fell from the sky and I was just that drop until my fall ended

and all that I was splashed into the sea and became indistinguishable from the vast ocean. No more I, though for a brief fall I was.

[Kablooie]

83. I don't believe that we become the bottom of someone's foot after we die.

[KittyWampus]

109. Perhaps when we die we discover we are the eyes of the world.

[KittyWampus]

106. the term of art we use is "mind stuff". But ALL matter is essentially sunlight.Ponder that

and consider all its implications and you might expand your understanding of the universe and your self.

[okieinpain]

63. exactly. i agree 1000%. lol. everything can't be explained by science and

the bible can't fix your car.

[EOTE]

95. I think you mean "not everything can be explained by science".

And I'd certainly agree with that. But there are SOMEthings that science can explain. And I have used a bible as a jack stand once, so I guess it kind of helped to fix my car :p

[samsingh]

131. there are certainly things that science can't explain yet

[okieinpain]

140. I'll go along with everything you say except for using the bible

as a jack stand. I'm not trying to get struck by lighting. lol.

[EOTE]

92. I'm interested in hearing what others who have experienced NDEs have to say about this.

Because as someone who has experienced one, "noise" is the absolute last word I'd use to describe the experience. My first cogent words after the experience were "How can I go back to being an agnostic after this?" I still have a total dislike for church and organized religion in general, but I now have an extremely strong belief that something utterly incredible awaits us after this life. Spending just a few minutes there was the most remarkable experience I've ever had.

[kentauros]

112. I've only had OBEs, no NDEs, and they don't compare from what I've read,

including your account. And so, you might be interested in this site. It wasn't updated for a couple of years until recently, so I may have to visit it again and read some more of the entries. You might even be able to send them an account of your experience

Also, the feeling of wanting to go back is common, and understandable, given what it's like.

ETA: Okay, I see by a post later on that you're already familiar with this site. That's good

[EOTE]

149. Thanks for the link.

Yes, I am familiar, but I'm always happy to give it another plug. I've gotten lost reading the experiences there. I do very much want to go back, but if I don't, the mere taste I got will last me.

[kentauros]

150. You've probably delved deeper in it than I have.

I get burnt out reading stories that are too similar all the time

I did read Anita Moorjani's book earlier this year. I recommend it, though she doesn't get into her journey until about halfway through the book. Still, she does write a good background for herself, and what led to the NDE.

The closest I've come to any of this besides the OBEs was a dream that somehow connected me to that overwhelming Love that NDE-people experience. I don't know how to reconnect to it other than maybe through some kind of binaural-beat meditation. Something developed by the Monroe Institute might do it

[closeupready]

36. Agreed. Thanks.

[Mojorabbit]

39. I participated in many codes back in the day I worked critical care

and there were several where the patient had flatlined and we coded them and brought them back. These particular people said they were hovering over the scene watching everything and were able to identify people,snippets of conversation, and events while they were supposedly clinically dead. I keep an open mind one way or another.

[Duer 157099]

44. I have read numerous accounts like this

where there was absolutely no neural activity whatsoever--in other words, clinically dead--and yet as you describe, the patients were aware of what was happening in the room.

Contrary to what the study concludes, this means that awareness is not correlated with neural activity.

Not that it isn't an interesting phenomenon, this activity upon death. But their conclusion is incorrect, imho.

See Sam Parnia's book "Erasing Death" for more details.

[CanSocDem]

47. The big question,...

...as you point out in this observation "...awareness is not correlated with neural activity."

...is, What if consciousness exists independent of the body?

Think of the implications in regard to how we, as a culture, treat death. It's all we live for; we shape our lives around how to avoid it or we confront the delicate balance of good and evil without fear.


.

[KittyWampus]

110. Reality has already been scientifically proven to be non-local. If we posit Consciousness as the

basis of matter things get very interesting.

And if we think of consciousness not only as the basis of matter but essentially electromagnetic energy it gets even more interesting.

[CanSocDem]

114. It may be a little early in the day...

...to be discussing the nature of "reality" when most of us are just happy to have anything sturdy enough to lean on metaphorically speaking.

However.....if you are saying 'Reality has already been scientifically proven to be objective, as in the same for everybody, then I would take issue.

I have, as I'm sure you have, sat face-to-face with someone who steadfastly maintained that black was white. And as far as Science is considered an authority on reality, I would posit that it is the part of some realities used to validify our assumtions and suppositions. In the same way that Religion validates anothers "reality".

Neither really work for me so I view this discovery of accelerated brain activity as just another example of wide-spread misinformation feeding the scientific narrative.

I personally think we should be studying the brainwaves of healthy people instead of those who are dying. And even though I hate to link to my own thread it is pertinent:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1226272

.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

71. has anyone tested this explosive brain activity in humans?

[Duer 157099]

72. From the abstract:

"However, the neurophysiological state of the brain immediately following cardiac arrest has not been systematically investigated."

[Hekate]

59. That's "out of body" -- my mom experienced that; my dad had the full NDE

Mom was bleeding to death from a miscarriage in her mid-20s; she floated away, watched and listened to the doctors and nurses, and thought about just breathing out one last time and leaving all her troubles behind. She thought about Dad raising us by himself, and knew he would not do it well. She literally decided to take the next breath in, and return to raise her toddlers, which would be me and my brother. She never forgot it was a choice.

Dad had a heart valve replaced in his early 50s; it had been damaged by scarlet fever in his early childhood. The surgery took 12 hours instead of 4 because the heart was so "leaky" they wouldn't have tried at all had they known how bad it was. At some point he went down the well-known tunnel of light and saw people dancing in a field of flowers. He would have stayed, but was sent back.

His memory of the incident faded later, but some people retain it vividly forever. I once interviewed a woman in her 40s who had been drowned as a teenager -- there was nothing ambiguous about her recollection or the way it made her regard her life forever after.

My parents did not raise us in a religious point of view; actually quite the opposite. Mom, in particular, was a determined rationalist. She did, however, keep an open mind about what she and those close to her had experienced personally, possibly knowing that there was more in heaven and earth than was dreamed of in her philosophy.

[Mojorabbit]

64. I am so glad she came back for you.

[Hekate]

67. Me too.

Thanks for that.

[840high]

81. I worked ICU back

in younger days. Same reports from people. Open mind is good.

[EOTE]

96. Carl Jung's NDE is a particularly interesting read.

He attempted to save his Dr.'s life without any luck. An NDE is an absolutely mind-blowing experience, and there are plenty of aspects of the NDE that have yet to be explained. Larry Hagman also recounts his very interesting, drug-induced NDE on that site as well.

http://www.near-death.com/jung.html

[Neoma]

147. Depends on if you view your brain as part of your body I guess.

[Socal31]

4. It's better to burn out, than to fade away.

My my, hey hey.

[WheelWalker]

8. Out of the blue and into the black.

[madrchsod]

5. interesting...i had a cardiac arrest in febuary

i told my wife i was having a heart attack and i did`t want to die...it was a cardiac arrest. my wife kept the blood flowing to my brain till the paramedics arrived. went to the hospital had a sent put in then i did`t wake up. flew me up to the regional heart hospital where the doctors told my wife i would`t wake up. 4 days later i woke up and 4 weeks later i was on the road to recovery.

during any of that time i didn't experience anything at all.

[Half-Century Man]

6. Sounds like you experienced competent life support

Oh yeah....welcome back, we're sorry we didn't pick up the living room.

[eggplant]

28. So it sounds like your arrest was overturned on appeal. ;-)

Congrats on your return, and best of luck with your recovery. I highly recommend cardiac rehab -- the positive effect on outcome is significant. I had my MI seven years ago, but no arrest thankfully.

[Hekate]

7. How else could we experience the spiritual except through the senses of our bodies & minds?

We are embodied beings, after all.

Poor rats.

[dixiegrrrrl]

30. Very sensible question.

Of course, we humans also have no soul, cause science has not proven it exists.

But others argue that animals have no soul, because they are not human.

Therefore rats cannot have a near death experience.

ta daaaaaaaaaa.

It's all in the presentation.

[MFM008]

31. killing animals just to speculate

We dont know what this means at all. Are all brains hardwired the same and to see the same things as you leave the building? We dont know .............yet.

[The Stranger]

45. It seems somehow wrong, doesn't it?

Killing an animal only to see if it suffers or is aware of its own demise in some way.

It is self-evident. Life (and Death) should be respected -- even of the "lowliest" of creatures.

[BlueJazz]

37. Don't feel bad. I like Ratties and had some as Pets....they go here >>

[GoneOffShore]

9. Anybody have some popcorn?

This is going to be fun!

[valerief]

10. Sounds like Jesus isn't magic. Someone should tell Sarah Silverman. nt

[TeeYiYi]

18. Sarah doesn't believe Jesus is magic...

She's one of the chosen people. It's daddy that believes that...

"Mommy is one of the chosen people and daddy believes Jesus is magic!"

TYY

[valerief]

19. You must be the life of the party.

Ha! I don't care what she believes.

[TeeYiYi]

20. Well, you must be basic reading comprehension challenged...

...and a real laff riot.

TYY

[Manifestor_of_Light]

35. Where I live, Jesus is magic.

Because everyone goes to church and knows it because somebody told them. And they believe it. And will be glad to tell you ALL about it.

[awoke_in_2003]

11. Before someone says this proves...

there is an after life- same thing happens during certain types of seizures. Electricity sometimes goes haywire.

[nebenaube]

14. gee...

blood flow stops and thing things depolarize en mass, it's only textbook neurophysiology; idiots! not->

[mopinko]

15. also experienced at high g force

astronauts in training were spun until they blacked out. the light was especially common.

[awoke_in_2003]

23. I used to suffer from seizures...

and experienced what people describe in near death experiences

[FiveGoodMen]

62. If it did prove such a thing, it would prove that RATS have an afterlife.

[loyalsister]

80. speaking from experience, it indeed does

During and after seizures, I experience what feels like reorganizing and labeling my scattered memory from during and\soon after the event. Sometimes it also feels like dreams.
Epilepsy was also once considered a "sacred disease." A person being attacked by demons. Or one having visions that were sent by gods.

[EOTE]

98. It indeed does what?

My wife also has seizures and I've had a number of conversations with her with regard to what she goes through prior to and during the seizures. We've both had NDEs and I find it very interesting comparing and contrasting what happens during her seizures and what happened during our NDEs and similar experiences.

[loyalsister]

99. Electricity indeed goes haywire

For example, electricity from my brain rips my shoulders out of the sockets.

I think that my recollections are the stuff of dreams, false memories, and desperate labeling to make sense out of what happened. As well as to remember anything surrounding the event in order to give doctors an account. Being science oriented, I am inclined to think that NDEs are interpretations of involuntary neurological events. But, to each his\her own.

[EOTE]

100. It certainly does.

May I ask if you've ever experienced an NDE? As I said, I do notice a lot of similarities between seizures and NDEs, but I don't believe that makes the spiritual aspect of NDEs any less significant. I like to consider myself to be science oriented as well, and while I've been very interested in NDEs the great bulk of my life, I was always attempting to find materialistic explanations for them until I actually experienced one. It is an absolutely mind-blowing experience, much of it totally beyond words. And there's also the issue of people seeing/knowing things that they wouldn't have been able to know had they been confined to their physical bodies such as Carl Jung's NDE. I can't claim to know for sure what lies on the other side, although for the few weeks after the experience, I was 100% sure. It's faded over time.

http://www.near-death.com/jung.html

[loyalsister]

104. No

and I am not inclined to believe those reports are much more than false memories, or interpretations of neurological events similar to dreams. That is my personal perspective not one that I want to impose on anyone. I'm a person who does not believe in any God. My understanding of what happens after death is everything just shuts down for good.

I studied psychology and I thought Carl Jung was a philosopher as opposed to a behavioral scientist.

[EOTE]

97. I believe there's some kind of relation between what happens to one's brain during seizures and this

kind of mental activity. And I in no way believe that discounts the spiritual aspect of these experiences. I tend to think of the brain as a computer/receiver. As you say, sometimes electricity goes haywire and allows that computer/receiver to operate in unusual ways.

I have a fair bit of experience with psychedelics. One thing I've noticed with a number of psychedelic tryptamines such as magic mushrooms (psilocyn and psilocybin) and various other forms of DMT is that I get what I call "hyper vision" where my field of vision becomes wider and I see things in incredible detail. Sharpness that makes my typical vision seem pretty pathetic in comparison. After a number of trips with my wife and many discussions, she noted that she gets the very same hyper vision immediately prior to her seizures. She'll immediately pull over if it ever happens while driving. Like Dr. Rick Strassman who performed the only legal scientific tests on DMT, I tend to think of endogenous DMT as somewhat of a reality thermostat. Too little of it and things seem flat and lifeless. Too much of it and things are way too intense and overwhelming. Just the right amount and you're in the Goldilocks zone. I believe the massive doses some of our bodies receive at select points in our lives (such as while in the womb and during NDEs) give us little glimpses of the reality we come to occupy after we die.

[Katashi_itto]

13. Scientific Simulation

[Xipe Totec]

16. It's a cylon download

[Arugula Latte]

17. What the rats saw right before death ...

[freshwest]

25. But that would be BAT, not a RAT. Coming to swoop them away to Fur Baby Heaven.

Squeaking in the Celestial Choir for Eternity. But sadly, neither has left us any books regarding their belief system. Poor little things.

[kelliekat44]

26. You don't know what it is really like unless you really experience it. nt

[freshwest]

32. Oh, I've had my chances. It's all so messy. Just call me Wheeze, Eek or Squeak!

[roguevalley]

40. I agree Kelliekat44. there are those that experience them and those who haven't.

I am intrigued that if this is a natural process for whatever reason, why aren't the experiences experienced like a natural process ie, uniformity of experience? There are only about 41% who have the tunnel and light. Everyone else has their own thing.

Mine was simple. I heard a pop, it all went black, then I was with my mother in a street of my town. I wish I could describe it. Then a pop, black and white, then I was back throwing up my guts.

My niece had one during one of her many hip operations. It was going on and she was standing next to the doctors watching. She didn't want to go back in but she did. She could tell them what they did, what happened, their conversation. Nurses I know tell tales too as did my cousin a mortician.

If death is a process, how come the experiences aren't the same? Flu is a process. so are other things. THey follow steps. this doesn't. It is intriguing and I don't regret anything about my NDE. It took the fear of dying completely away.

[hollysmom]

51. Idied 3 times, and had to be resusitated does that count

Or do you have to die die like beyond coming back?
I remember seeing the heart stop on the monitor and hearing the alarm go off, seeing the crash cart come rushing into the room and hearing people yelling, but then I thought this is interesting, I should watch this, but I am so tired, so very very tired, I think I will take a nap and ask them what happened later. that happened twice, you would have thought I would have fought harder the second time, then it happened once while I was sleeping, i didn't even wake up but the doctor told me about it when I woke up 3 days later.

Good thing that I was pretty healthy besides taking the wrong (prescribed amount) dose of the blood pressure medicine. But I have always felt a bit less bright since then and tend to forget things much much more.

[LongTomH]

38. Or maybe something like this.....

The Death of Rats from Sir Terry Pratchett's Discworld series.

[Hekate]

41. I was just about to find a pic of the Death of Rats to post, but yours is great

Triple-signed, too! Is the print yours?

Hekate

[LongTomH]

46. No, I just did a quick Google image search for "Death of Rats Discworld"

[johnp3907]

27. They did a similar experiment on white mice years ago.

More than just their brains exploded:

[rug]

33. Somehow, this makes me sad. It reminds me of this.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on that sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

[Squinch]

101. Thanks for this.

[KinMd]

42. Or This

Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country from whose bourn
No traveler returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of?

William Shakespeare
Hamlet 3.1.56

[leftyladyfrommo]

49. Why is it so important for some people to prove that religion is a big scam?

I really don't understand why it is such a big deal.

If you don't believe it, fine. Don't believe it.

Humans have always had religion - going back to practically the beginning of time. Maybe we just need it. Maybe our social structure depends on the morality that we get from our religions. Buddhism doesn't have a creator god. I don't find any need to make fun of other people's religions. This life can be incredibly hard. If having a belief in something helps then I have no problem with that.

I practice Zen. It is helpful to me. If you don't like it then fine. Leave me alone. I don't step all over your toes. Don't try and step all over mine.

[Octafish]

50. + Infinity

Peace to You and Yours, leftyladyfrommo.

[djean111]

52. I have always wondered why it is so important for people to try and prove NDE's

don't exist.
I know that even though I do not believe there is a god, that does not mean there isn't one - my disbelief has no effect.
And so I laugh at those who spend so much time and energy making studies in order to disprove NDEs - why do they care? Their disbelief is irrelevant.
What is really funny is people who believe in angels and heaven and all that sort of thing saying oh, I need scientific proof on NDE's, as if people who have had them should be taking cell-certs or whatever.

I don't care about religion at all, unless someone is trying to convert me or is affecting my life with their religion, making laws which force their religious beliefs on me, or wants to kill me because I do not believe as they do.
Hmmm....my NDE just makes me smile. I don't need validation.

[Duer 157099]

53. Why is it important to expose any big scam?

Because scams hurt people, that's why.

[leftyladyfrommo]

55. You don't know that it is a scam.

That's just your own belief. Granted some of the religous groups that have developed have been scams. But that doesn't mean they all are.

Societies going clear back to the dawn of time have had religion. All societies have them. There has to be an important reason for that. They have to play a very important role in the development of culture.

It might be that people just need to feel they have some kind of control in this totally unpredictable world. This world is a really scary place.

It could be that in order to have any kind of society you need to have a strong moral code. Religion provides the moral code that makes society work.

It could be that the mystics were just right. There is more to this world than can be seen or felt with human eyes and ears. I am in that camp.

You can argue religion until the cows come home but there is no way to prove or disprove it.

It certainly doesn't hurt to honor other people's beliefs.

[Duer 157099]

70. How do I know it is a scam?

Because there are multitudes of religions that all claim to be the one and only true one. That is exactly how I know.

And I could not disagree more about needing religion to provide a moral code. Do you need an external moral code? I don't.

[leftyladyfrommo]

73. But you grew up in a culture that came with a moral code.

Every culture has a moral code. So even it you never had anything to do with religion you would still have learned the moral code. C.S. Lewis was talking about that in one of the things of his that I read. We all know the moral code of our society. We do not always choose to act in accordance with that code. If someone asks "is killing another person OK?" we would answer "no." Or is it OK to seduce another man's wife we would say "no." Or is it OK to steal? Same thing. But even though we all know the code we may choose to kill someone and we know it's wrong.

[Duer 157099]

79. You sort of make my point in a way

Moral codes do not have to be derived from religion. There are other sources. Some even intrinsic. Unless you are conflating moral code with religion, such that no matter what it is called, if it is a moral code then de facto it is religion?

Do animals have a moral code?

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Don't ask Aristotle

Animals don't have a soul, or feelings.

Of course modern research tells us this is pretty much bull.

[leftyladyfrommo]

91. I work with animals all day long.

They have souls. They have feelings and fears. They get anxious and worried.

I don't think their consciousness is all that different from ours. They just don't have the same ability to think in language that we have. So their thinking is pretty simple.

When it comes to awareness and living in the moment they are way ahead of us.

[Duer 157099]

128. But do they have a moral compass?

I would say that they do. My experience with animals is like yours.

When certain species are monogamous, where does that come from? Is that a moral issue or a genetic one?

How many animals kill for sport?

Questions to ponder.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Why I said don't ask Aristotle

We have seen a parrot grief the death of his life partner.

[Duer 157099]

130. And guilt too

How does one have guilt without a moral compass? There is no question that dogs experience (and display!) guilt. They know right from wrong.

[leftyladyfrommo]

87. I think that originally moral codes were a cultural necessity.

And religion was one way that a moral code was enforced.

[LTX]

120. Are they no longer a cultural necessity? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. I know I am about to step in it

Religions were part of social evolution. You might even argue that it was adaptive for better tribal survival early on.

These days, see climate change, the kindest thing I can say about religions, multiple, but in particular the Bronze Age monotheistic religions...they are proving quite mal adaptive.

As to morality, the first legal code, Hamurabbi's developed independently of the religion. You don't need a religion for a moral code. Hell, Greek and Roman society had a legal system independent of Olympus.

I told you I was going to step in it.

[leftyladyfrommo]

88. But religion had to have been an important adaptive thing

in early society or it wouldn't have been a part of every society. I can't think of one very early culture that didn't have some kind of religion.

I was thinking about Hamurabbi myself but I couldn't remember enough about it's development.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. The point is that today it is quite mal adaptive

Might even put species survival at risk.

Either it "evolves" and becomes harmonious to human survival...

Also it developed for one simple reason...explaining the world. Well, we have new tools to explain the world. We also know that for example the Old Testament was a tool of late state formation, as in 7th century BCE. Perhaps David was the first historic person, but not a king, a chieftain.

Oh and David went back 300 years...I forgot to add that..but he was the first for whom we have some evidence. Perhaps Noah, the story is Babybolian, and goes back to the 11th century BCE.

I read what you said about Jesus bellow. What he was, assuming he existed...the evidence is thin at best...is that he was not unlike Rabbi Akiva...part of the movement challenging the power establishment of the era...and rabbi means teacher.

But the myth...he died and came back after three days, he lived only thirty years, and the rest...has a lot in common with Mithraism, which was a common religion of Rome in the Mediteranean, as well as Horus, and a few other religions.

I think at least a good portion of humanity is now able to give up on gods...because what we are funding about nature through science, see Biiggs Boson for example, or Quantum Mechanics...is far superior to any sacred book.

The US is behind other advanced economies...but with the young it is starting to catch up, and given what we face, I don't need prayers, I need scientists.

Now as to life after death, even science has an explanation...no...not the soul...information is not lost...and given brains look more and more like quantum computers...

[leftyladyfrommo]

123. You have every right to think what you think.

I understand that argument. I think about those things, too.

But I'm a mystic. We are just cut from different cloth. We sit in the silent places. Be still and know that I am God. That basically is our "religon." No books necessary. But I do read the Dharma. But in the end you have to throw all of that out the window and just sit in the stillness. And mystics from all religions can talk to each other. The teachings don't matter at that level.

[yellowcanine]

115. "Religion provides the moral code that makes society work." I am not so sure of that.

I think one would be hard pressed to prove that religion is necessary for morality or that religious people are any more moral than non religious people as a group.

[leftyladyfrommo]

116. Religion isn't necessary any more. Not for morality, anyway.

We have an embedded moral code in our society now.

What I don't know is what would happen to our moral code if everyone just stopped being religious. At least around here where we have lots and lots of Baptists the Ten Commandments are still the bedrock of a lot of people's belief systems.

But at one time I think religion was important. And later when governments began to be included in the culture then the govt. and the religion were all wrapped around each other. The govt was then able to enforce the moral code.

China did away with religion. The govt there seems to have no problem doing some really awful stuff to both citizens and animals. Don't know if that is a good example of what happens to the moral code in society if there is no religion or not. We have religion coming out our ass here and we still do some god awful stuff.

[yellowcanine]

119. Anyone who bases their moral code just on religious belief probably isn't going to keep it.

Sooner or later they find a way to justify going against their moral code using their religion.

I am not afraid of people who lose their religion. I am afraid of the people who use religion to justify what they do.

[leftyladyfrommo]

122. You don't have to have religion to do that.

People are really good at coming up with all kinds of stuff to justify what they do. Religion is just a handy tool.

People here in the Bible belt are experts at justifying some of their horrible beliefs by quoting one liners from the Bible.

But, you know, that doesn't make all religion bad. There are lots of good religious people out there who are really trying to do the right things. It's not fair to paint everyone with the same brush.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. The young in the US are abandoning the churches

(And synagogues) at historic numbers. This has people in very religious strongholds in the US running scared.

We know that even in the Bible Belt there is a down trend in Church attendance.

Oh and china was a bad example...given Chinese history and the place Animals have in rural societies...we do equally horrific things to animals and nature here, based on the dominion God gave us over the Earth.

You want a better example, and it s just better, we are tribal, another thing we need to overcome if we are to survive, are more advanced European societies where religious attendance is at an all time low.

Oh and China, the party walked away...but the people still pretty much believe in their ancestors.

I respect people who pray...if you find peace that way...it's cool...but don't expect pushback when you post things like we need religion because that is the basis of morality. Hell, Judaism had the first food safety code (kosher what is and what is not) It's a desert, shell fish don't last, and cooking pork takes a lot of fuel...it's a desert.

There are people who are moral and ethical...and then there are those who are not...it's independent of how often you pray. In my experience...the people who go to church, synagogue...what have you...are less moral...but my sample is small. They justifie thse amoral acts with religion.

And people in the Bible Bell talk about the Ten Commandments...that's cool...the law is not derived from them, but British common law going way back, some of it to Rome...not Moses. That includes you shall not kill...this happens to be independent from the Ten Commandments. It's like every society reached the conclusion that killing your neighbor was not a good idea.

And the bible justifies kings, Britain started to move away from divine right and all that with Magna Carta, that also gave people the right to face accusers and be brought before a magistrate...no Bible required, just a revolt. We moved fully away from it, and have partially returned with imperial presidencies...but empires do that.

You know where I lost my religion? It was cognitive disonance. Mind you, I had been mulling that as a daughter of a holocaust survivor. I had to declare a five year old, horrific accident. A god that is good and just allowed all those people to die, and now allowed this. Yeah, yeah..free will...well, that day I walked away.

Well, I pretty much walked away and started to look at the true basis of it, and the real history. By the way, the real history is far more fascinating than the Old Testament for example.

[leftyladyfrommo]

133. I'm not arguing with you.

I have no answers.

My concept of God is not some kind of personage that sits on high and moves people around like pieces on a chess board. I don't believe in much of the stuff taught in churches.

I really don't try to justify anything. Awful things happen every day in this world. It is just the way of the world.

And there are a hundred million miracles that happen every day, too.

This is just my own experience and I not demeaning yours. But we have a choice. We can live in the light or we can choose the darkness. And that darkness can be a horrible bottomless pit.

So I sit just like the Zen people have done for thousands of years. Just sit. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad. No difference. It just is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. But you do not need religion to chose the light or the darkness

That is the point. You chose Zen, which is not a monotheistic faith, that's cool...the point I am trying to make. Poorly I guess, is that morality is independent from any and all religions.

It can be used to push it, but so can many other things.

The mystical experience is also separate from morality, as a Jesuit friend put it to me, meditation is a way to god, not morality.

That is the pushback you are getting...equating religion with morality.

[leftyladyfrommo]

141. I don't disagree.

You don't need religion to be moral in this world. What I was saying was that at one time - way back when- religion did play a huge role in establishing morality in a culture.

Zen is not a religion. It's a meditation technique. I'm not sure just what it leads to. I have been practicing for about 40 years. You can use it along with religious mysticism and that is kind of what I do. It is very helpful.

I kind of lean more toward Tibetan Buddhism but I was raised Christian and that has had a big impact on what I believe and practice. But religion on the mystical leval is a lot different than religion on the street level. There really aren't any rules per se but you have to abide by certain moral rules. And you find the same rules outlined in Buddhism as you do in Christianity or Judism. You can't practice mysticism and act like an asshole. You just can't.

I don't put labels on it or fence myself in with opinions. I just sit.

Have you read Omar Khayam? His works are wonderful and he didn't believe in any kind of a patriarchal god. " Pray, who is the potter and who is the pot?" "Don't look to that inverted bowl we call the sky. It rolls impotently on as you and I." I grew up on that stuff and it had a really power impact on what I came to believe later.

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. Will check them out

[yellowcanine]

144. No but it does seem that the preachers braying the most about this or that sin are hiding the most.

I have no problem with spirituality or organized religion. Faith based organizations do a lot of good. But there are a lot of shysters out there also who are just taking advantage of people.

[leftyladyfrommo]

145. I just don't pay any attention to all that stuff.

Once in a while I like to go to mass just because it's beautiful.

I'm not much on organized religion for myself. But I do love to listen to Gregorian Chant.

I just stay away from the stuff that is silly or manipulative. It's a waste of time.

[leftyladyfrommo]

136. I know a lot of people who just really want to go to heaven.

And they think that if they follow all of the rules that will get them in.

Seriously.

I don't know. Maybe they are right.

[MisterP]

58. same reason the "Jesus can't be real" folks keep citing the same sources Jack Chick uses

or why others pretend that Satoshi Kanazawa and Larry Summers as scientists "'coz evolution," or treating as experts those who have a bad relation to facts and whose attitude is "a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia"

maybe a lot of them are ex-fundies, but haven't dropped quite all of fetishizing whatever they're believing for the moment

[leftyladyfrommo]

69. There's a lot of evidence that Jesus did exist.

Just go back and read all of the Lost Gospels that are out there. There's a ton of stuff that was written very early. I think the Gospel of Thomas has been dated to just after the time of Christ.

And James, brother of Jesus and head of the church in Jerusalem, was well known and respected by many of the writers of the time. He was a strict vegetarian, wore all white clothes that were made of vegetable fibers like linen and cotton.

When you get masses of documents like this there had to be something besides a huge myth. And look at the Buddha. He lived some 500 years before Christ and there are masses of his teachings out there, too. No one doubts he existed. The difference is that he lived for some 80 years and spent 50 years teaching so many of his early teachings are available. Christ only taught for a couple of years and it was a while before any of it was written down.

I don't doubt that he existed. My guess is that he was a teacher a lot like the Buddha (who never claimed to be a god). Whatever he was his existence really packed a wallop in the culture of the time.

[yellowcanine]

76. Because so many scams have been facilitated by appealing to religion?

It is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Seems like a reasonable explanation to me.

[Squinch]

102. Many scams have been facilitated by appealing to greed. That doesn't mean that money doesn't exist.

Some people have faith that there is a life after death (which, by the way, is different from being religious.) I say to them, "have at it."

I have been around many deaths, and my experiences tell me there is something going on. I don't know what, but there is something.

I can't convince you I am right, you can't convince me I am wrong but I don't know why my thinking that should be a threat to anyone.

[yellowcanine]

111. Problem is many people including me were bombarded with scary hell fire stories as children

as a means of getting us to behave and think in a certain way. I call that a scam. It is not a matter of convincing who is right and who is wrong. I can believe in an after life (where did you get the idea I don't?) and still not have a problem with skeptics. Why is that a problem? I have no problem with anyone believing or not believing in an after life as long as they aren't imposing that belief on others as a means of controlling them. Unfortunately, this has happened and still happens. If you don't think this is a threat, you haven't been there. Because I have and I can tell you that it is. Far more people have been hurt by misguided believers in life after death than skeptics. It isn't skeptics who are scaring children with hell fire stories. Given how belief in an after life has been used by organized religion in the past people have a right to be suspicious of life after death stories. Also, in this particular case, I am not sure what the problem is. An increase in brain activity after the heart stops neither proves nor disproves anything about life after death. Death occurs when the brain dies, not when the heart stops. And this is precisely why I give little credence to "near death stories." If you can remember something your brain was not dead. Anything you remember was a dream, not an afterlife experience. That doesn't mean the after life isn't real. It just means that people who have these experiences weren't dead and therefore didn't experience any after life.

[Squinch]

113. But scary hell fire stories told to children are very different from the conversation going on here.

Last edited Thu Aug 15, 2013, 11:02 AM - Edit history (1)

It is true that many people have been hurt by misguided believers. Many people have been hurt by misguided politics, too. And misguided financial philosophies and basically anything misguided.

It is legitimate for you to give little credence to near death stories. It is also legitimate that others give much credence to them.

Your assumption that I have not been exposed to damaging and misguided religious beliefs couldn't be more wrong. I don't share your opinion. That doesn't mean that I don't understand where your opinion comes from, nor does it mean that I am ignorant about things you are informed about. It simply means that I don't share your opinion about something that is not provable.

This is simply something that, by definition, no one knows the answer to. Anyone who insists that their opinion is correct, whether religious or atheist, is ridiculous. Because no one knows.

[yellowcanine]

117. I give credence to near death stories but they prove nothing about life after death.

That is not just my opinion, it is a scientific truth because the scientific definition of death is brain death and it is impossible for a dead brain to remember anything. If one doesn't accept the scientific definition of death, of course one can have a contrary opinion but just recognize that it is not a scientific opinion but a religious one.

People who tell scary hell fire stories start with a belief in an after life. The religious fear mongers use these near death stories as a means of controlling people. That is why it is relevant here. The problem isn't belief in an after life. It is when the belief is based on fear and then one thinks they are justified in using fear to change the thinking of others.

[Squinch]

118. I guess you have the answers then, about who is right and who is wrong in this discussion.

Enjoy your certainty, and have a nice day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. Let me throw this in

And yes...it is science.

We know the brain, not just the human brain, acts like a quantum computer. This is cutting edge.

What is not cutting edge, but well known, is that information is not lost. This is a foundational principle of modern physics. (Why the food fight over black holes)

A few scientists are mulling the possibility, no, not of hell...or heaven, or any such nonesense, that at death the information in your brain dissipates into the network. So, yes...there could be some form of information persistence after the brain dies, the same way you can recover information from a computer drive...and the drive is a very bad example.

On the downside, these are mostly of the school of the great holographic simulation...as one joked in the Through the Wormhole, we might be a great game of Simms. It gives another meaning to games of Civ 5 I admit

[djean111]

127. "The religious fear mongers use these near death stories as a means of controlling people."

Oh, all the religious fear-mongers that I know get all pissy when I explain that my NDE was totally and absolutely NOT religious.
From what I see on the net and in personal life, NDE folks tend to just talk amongst themselves, not evangelize.
Prove nothing about life after death? Like the existence of a god or gods, there is really nothing to prove. As I have said before, it makes me laugh, all the effort put into trying to disprove something that cannot be proven. And does not need to be proven, really.
The people who get agitated or scornful seem like weird Thought Police to me.

[Arugula Latte]

78. Why is it so important for so many religious people to subject others to their religion, "prayers,"

and faith-justified bigotries (like all the anti-women, anti-gay crapola)?

[leftyladyfrommo]

90. Insecurity?

What those people fail to see is that if you are wrong it doesn't matter if everyone in the world agrees with you. You are still wrong.

I don't know. I'm a mystic. We don't force anyone to do anything. We have enough trouble just trying to deal with our own thing.

[Squinch]

103. I think we are talking about two different things here: one is following a prescribed religion and

trying to get others to follow it.

The other is believing that something happens after death.

[Hosnon]

148. They are scientists. They probably aren't out to prove religion is a big scam.

They're out to understand our universe, and this is just a part of it.

If new understanding contradicts a religion and reveals it to be false, i'd say it's a win-win for rationality.

[Sunlei]

68. so the poor rats must have been fully conscious when they ripped out their hearts? :(

I thought the USA didn't have research and science funding $$$? This seems like a waste of research time & dollars to me. Sickening also, the 'experiment' must have a lot of rats in horrible fear & agony.

Experiment is probably the cause of the 'high intensity' brain activity.

[leftyladyfrommo]

74. Yea. That's awful.

I just don't think we humans have any right to experiment on animals of any kind. They are sentient beings for God's sake.

[G_j]

86. and speaking of souls..

how could someone with a soul do this?
ugh..

[leftyladyfrommo]

89. Some of those experiments on animals are just so awful

I really don't know how anyone with any kind of compassion could do those things and not have nightmares for the rest of their lives.

But there are still people out there who don't feel much for animals. My mother was one of those people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. They did not rip anything out

There are many ways to stop the heart. Likely they used drugs. They could have run the code as well, and brought them back.

[yellowcanine]

75. So we can take from this that the rats are probably experiencing rat heaven?

[randome]

93. Mulholland Drive - 2001.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[reflection]

107. This makes me a little uneasy.

I think I would rather be be in a lower-conscious state than a state of heightened awareness when the moment of death is upon me. I'm sure that fear of death plays a part in that desire. In other words, I'd rather not be fully cognizant when it's time.

Then again, I understand that billions of people have gone ahead of me and we have no choice in the matter, so what are you going to do? No sense in obsessing about it.

I read something the other day that went (paraphrased): "If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Why should I be afraid of something which cannot exist when I do?"

Ok, done rambling.

[leftyladyfrommo]

134. I read that Steve Jobs last words were:

Oh, wow!

Strangely that is exactly what an inmate who was executed also said.

[reflection]

138. Well that's definitely encouraging.

Perhaps this life is not nearly as beautiful as what lies beyond.

[leftyladyfrommo]

142. One can only hope.

Sometimes this life is pretty sucky.

[samsingh]

132. this could also imply that the lit brain is more perceptive

and in tune with the universe - able to perceive across dimensions.

I don't know.

[leftyladyfrommo]

135. Our whole existence may just be an illusion.

I kind of think we are here to learn what we need to learn. Every single second of every day is a learning experience.

So every morning when I start out on my morning run to get animals out early I think of myself as being on the Dharma Road. So, what are you going to throw at me today? How am I going to handle it?

And I'm, like, Bring it on!

Keeps me from getting bored while I'm driving.

[Trillo]

146. Le petit mort

otherwise known as the little death.

I guess this was about the big death.

[longship]

151. The brain is what the brain does.

Consciousness is a function of the brain, a biological organ. Any claim that consciousness exists outside our biology has a very steep mountain to climb since all the evidence -- and I do mean all of it -- shows the counter.

NDE are effects of how the brain works. When one dies the brain stops working and so does consciousness.

It really quite simple. It's just that people don't like to acknowledge that reality.

I wish there was immortality. Sadly, there is no evidence to support that hypothesis, no matter what kooks like John Edward and Sylvia Brown and others of their ilk profess (let alone the theists).