Tennessee father and son dead after AR-15 goes off and ammunition-filled room explodes

[Garion_55]

Source: Rawstory

Officials in Tennessee say that a father and his 12-year-old son died over the weekend died after an AR-15 assault-style rifle accidentally discharged, causing a fire and then a series of explosions in a room full of ammunition.

WBBJ-TV reported on Monday that Tennessee State Bomb and Arson Investigators, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and Henderson County Sheriff’s Department were all looking into the Sunday deaths 48-year-old Terry York and his son, Luke.

According to family members, York’s AR-15 rifle accidentally discharged while he was in a back room of their home showing it off to some friends. The discharge ignited a small fire, which “did not seem too threatening at first,” they told WBBJ-TV. The blaze apparently grew out of control after Luke entered the room to help his father put out fire.

That’s when witnesses started hearing explosions.

Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/20/tennessee-father-and-son-dead-after-ar-15-goes-off-and-ammunition-filled-room-explodes/

[onehandle]

1. Just another day in gun nuttery. nt

[rocktivity]

3. He showed it off to some friends without making sure it wasn't loaded?

Last edited Mon May 9, 2016, 07:52 PM - Edit history (1)

THESE are the people that the gun industry needs to worry about, not "the liberals" and "the pacifists"!


rocktivity

P.S. Here's the Rush Limbaugh Femnazi Signature model:

[hlthe2b]

4. And another innocent child killed at the hands of his gun-obsessed Father.

I'm only heartened that he didn't take out the entire neighborhoodl

[dembotoz]

5. sounds like something out of a roadrunner coyote cartoon

acme ammunition

[shenmue]

6. Awful

On the list of Not Good Ideas...

[dbackjon]

7. Feel bad for the kid

[Demeter]

26. I feel bad for his mother

and as for the sperm donor--too stupid to live.

[Evasporque]

8. COmmunities should put limits on the amount of ammo you can store

In a residential area.

[happyslug]

52. This does NOT sound like an ammunition problem

Regular ammunition, unless inside a Chamber of a weapon (or similar containment device) if it catches on fire, explodes or even propels bullets more then inches from the case of ammunition (and most of that distance is the bullet dropping to the ground from brass case).

Black powder or smokeless powder, if piled together, can explode, but it requires a lot of loose powder (i.e NOT in a round of ammunition), fire and often water. Smokeless powder is a Nitrate based compound, that prefers to burn not explode. In a brass cartridge inside a chamber of a weapon, the powder burns but has no place to go when it expands as its burns, it thus quickly reaches a point that it explodes and propels the bullet out of the weapon.

Smokeless powder in the loose from will just burn UNLESS it is contained by something. This can be the residue of other burned powder, but that requires a LOT of powder, we are talking several pounds and most people do NOT buy that much powder at a time.

Another way to the powder to be "Contained" is by dumping water on it. The Water acts to block expansion and thus the powder reaches a point that it explodes. The 1947 Texas City Disaster is the classic case of this. In that case it was Nitrate fertilizer that had caught fire on a freighter. The local fire department was called in, tried to put the fire out with water. Ended up "Containing" the fire so that it exploded and wiped out much of Texas City.

More on the Texas City disaster:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster

The above is a simplification of the HOW smokeless powder acts, but I mention it for it is almost impossible to have an explosion with ready made ammunition. Even if such ammunition is caught in a fire, and the fire sets off the ammunition, it rarely is compact enough for the bullets to exit the cardboard box most come in, let alone anything heavier.

I hate to say this, this sounds like loose powder, kept by a reloader, who was careless in how it was stored (i.e. NEVER keep such powder anywhere where it can be exposed to fire). Worse, I suspect the victims tried to used water to put out the fire, and ended up with a mini-Texas city.

Another error the father did was even touch a gun (or anything) until the powder was in some safe storage container (such as the container it came in) AND that container be sealed.

Most powder comes in one pound containers. The biggest containers of powder, were eight pound containers (that was after a quick search):

http://www.lohmanarms.com/reloading_powder_s/2091.htm?searching=Y&sort=2&cat=2091&show=30&page=1

I suspect people can buy it is larger containers, but the larger the container, the more dangerous it is.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Winchester/products/356/

I did find black powder sold in a 25 pound container:

http://www.blackpowderva.com/

Other sites I went to, say if you have more then five pounds of smokeless gunpowder, you have to have a safe to keep it in (the reason is the protect the powder from FIRE not thrift) AND that is the minimal requirement to get the license needed for more then five pounds of loose gun powder.

One site says people can have up to 50 pounds of black powder and no limits on the amount of smokeless powder (Through this is only Federal Law on the subject, the states may have stricter laws).

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/04/24/1900821/how-even-a-terrorist-can-buy-explosive-powders-without-a-background-check/

Sorry, this does NOT sound like ammunition going off, it sounds like loose gun powder going off. I know it is a technical difference, but a difference even the US Army acknowledges. When I was in the Army, Ammunition for Rifles and Machine guns were given the least concern, for they rarely went off. On the other hand explosives for artillery were treated with a higher degree of danger (and the most concern for dangers were the Fuses for the artillery shells, for they were known to be touchy)

In this case, it sounds like the AR-15 hit something that started a fire near some sort of Gunpowder (I Suspect Smokeless powder) and the victims tried to put it out with water. Wrong type of fire extinguisher on the wrong type of fire.

My point is Ammunition is NOT the problem, it is rarely the problem in such disasters. The problem is loose powder that people are careless with. Most states have regulations that exceed the Federal Regulations on these items and I suspect the father was NOT following those state rules (and may not have even been following the minimal Federal Rules).

Alternative theory

The bullet hit a natural gas pipeline, or propane line and started a fire, and it was NOT the ammunition going off, but Natural Gas or propane (or even gasoline). In simple terms, the ammunition was in the room, but it was something else that went "boom". The only fact we do know is a Bullet was fire, started a "Fire" and then it got out of hand and the father and son were killed. I just do NOT think it was the ammunition or the powder, gasoline is a bigger suspect in my mind. Gasoline can was hit a small fire incurred, but followed the leak to the almost empty gasoline can. Once in the can, the gasoline burned, and thus expanded and "exploded" killing the father and his son. Actually that seems to better fit to the facts then even the above theory of water and gunpowder. It is still bad powder handling, i.e. NEVER have something like gasoline in the same room as gunpowder.

[primavera]

64. What it sounds like...

... is another paranoid gun nut believing that guns and ammo make him safer and being proven wrong.

[Helen Borg]

9. Tragic...

The adult, though, should have known that playing with fire is dangerous, especially if you have a lot of ammo and explosive around the house.

[cosmicone]

10. Why is it that more Darwin award contenders are "responsible" gun owners? n/t

[frylock]

20. you can't win a darwin award if you've already procreated..

I suppose he can win it by a technicality if he only managed to pass his genes to the kid he killed through his negligence.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

27. You can be "awarded" if the gene line ends by both father and son dieing.

Depends whether he has other progeny or not.

[frylock]

32. precisely

[Doctor_J]

62. Why not? This will keep him from pro-creating AGAIN

Still helps the gene pool

[sinkingfeeling]

11. Live by the gun, die by the gun. Odd that 150 years later, the saying holds true.

[ileus]

12. meathook off the bang switch...

[eilen]

13. Shouldn't it strike someone

that the idea of having a home armory is a bad one? I would think this should be a question on a permit application. Also, what is the zoning in this neighborhood or is this another hidden rural militant organization.

[Snake Plissken]

14. This one might end up in the Darwin Awards Hall Of Fame.

Terry York died in peace knowing he didn't let Obama take his guns

[Judi Lynn]

50. He's a lucky gun humper. Bless his heart. n/t

[ManiacJoe]

15. Never underestimate smoke inhalation.

[Historic NY]

16. Ammo hoarders,

who the hell stores that much ammo in a house. It belongs in a bunker.

[ManiacJoe]

17. How much is "that much"?

[Historic NY]

47. Enough that they have to call in the bomb squad.

[ManiacJoe]

49. How often does that happen?

How often would the bomb squad roll their eyes at that call?

[SCVDem]

18. Who needs a gun safe anyway?

Idiots!

[ManiacJoe]

19. Are you suggesting the gun owner did not have one?

[SCVDem]

31. Yes!

If the ammo were in a gun safe this would not have happened.

[ManiacJoe]

33. In that case, true.

The way I read your post #18, it suggested a gun safe for the guns would have helped prevent this.

[quakerboy]

38. No

Im sure they exist, but i've yet to see a fireproof gun safe. So the safe wouldn't keep the fire out.

You can shoot a hole through steel fairly easily, and many gun safes are just fairly thin steel, so if the ammo was what started the fire, having it in a safe would still not necessarily have prevented this from happening.

Not shooting inside your own home would have prevented this from happening. A much higher degree of training might have prevented this from happening. Not playing with guns at a kids birthday party would probably have prevented this from happening.

[bluedigger]

21. Reloader?

[olddad56]

22. see, guns don't kill people, ammo does.

[quakerboy]

37. I shoulda read up before posting

That was my second reaction.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. One word and one word only: Why?

Why does anyone need a gun like that?

Why does anyone need a huge stockpile of ammunition like that?

I ask "Why", and the only answer that some gun enthusiasts can give is, "Why not?"

[ManiacJoe]

34. Like what? How much?

What is wrong with owning a semi-auto carbine?
How much ammo do you think he had?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

39. I'm just curious as to what reason one would need that particular weapon.

Mind you, it's not necessarily a legal question inasmuch as it is a practical question.

Practically, why would someone need a gun like that?

And the story said the room was filled with ammunition, so I'm just inferring there was a substantial amount in there.

[Recursion]

44. Because he doesn't need something as powerful as a hunting rifle

People who just shoot targets don't need all the power of a hunting rifle, and often prefer the lower-power assault weapon.

The ammo question is a good one; in my experience people do store too much ammo in one place often. I think they forget how much powder you're actually talking about in aggregate.

[MicaelS]

54. The AR-15 is a easy gun to shoot.

It is an lightweight, intermediate power rifle. It more powerful than a rifle firing pistol ammunition, but less powerful than a full size rifle in .30 / 7mm or larger. Thus it has less recoil, and is easier to shoot for a person of small stature. The AR-15 is a popular gun in competition shooting, specifically in NRA High Power Competition and Service Rifle Competition.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

55. Riiiiight. But why does one *need* it?

It's not practical for self-protection....you can't conceal it in a drawer or on your person.

It's not really practical for hunting, either. Less powerful firearms could just as easily do the trick, and arguably better.

And yes, you could use it for competitions sponsored by the NRA or other gun enthusiast organizations. But legitimate mainstream organizations dealing with precision based (and not action shooting) shooting, such as the Olympic skeet shooting, don't bother with such weapons.

So why does anyone need that particular type of weapon?

[Bay Boy]

57. Basing needs on what you (or I ) feel is practical

is rather silly.

It is as practical as any weapon for self protection in the home. Thus it's concealabilty is not an issue.

Many people hunt with it but for those who don't their reason is often that more powerful weapons are more suited to the task.

You are spot on that it isn't used for skeet shooting in the Olympics.

[NickB79]

59. Have you fired an AR-15 before?

It's not practical for self-protection....you can't conceal it in a drawer or on your person.

For home defense, where concealment isn't necessary, it's no worse than a 12-ga. shotgun that is considered the gold standard. In many ways, it's far better than a shotgun, as it has less recoil, is easier to shoot accurately, and will actually penetrate walls LESS than a buckshot or slug load if you use the right ammo.

It's not really practical for hunting, either. Less powerful firearms could just as easily do the trick, and arguably better.

You have that backwards. The AR-15's standard caliber (.223/5.56mm) is already much LESS powerful than most other hunting rifles: 1000 foot-pounds of energy, vs 3000 foot-pounds from a .30-06 deer rifle. My home state (MN) just made it legal to hunt with a .223-cal. rifle in the past few years. However, inside 100 yards it's still effective for deer, and the modular design allows different barrels in different calibers to be easily swapped. Theoretically, you could put a .22LR barrel on for squirrel and rabbits, swap to a .223 or .260 barrel for deer, and go all the way up to a .450-caliber barrel for black bear. I've even seen shotgun barrels for AR-15's now! For a hunter who doesn't want a closet full of guns, an AR-15 makes sense.

And yes, you could use it for competitions sponsored by the NRA or other gun enthusiast organizations. But legitimate mainstream organizations dealing with precision based (and not action shooting) shooting, such as the Olympic skeet shooting, don't bother with such weapons.

And those competitions are largely dying out, because people find them boring to watch. Action shooting events, on the other hand, are the ones that are growing in popularity, so it makes sense that more people are using AR-15's in competition these days.

[Ash_F]

66. I have fired a AR-type and feel it is a ridiculous amount of firepower...

for something pretty much anyone can get. It is powerful because it is semi-automatic, can hold 30 rounds and yes easy to shoot.

Now these guns have become quite popular and prolific so the odds of some brat swiping mommy's gun and shooting up grade school have gone up quite a bit.

Here we are.

[NickB79]

58. The type of firearm isn't very important in this particular case

A single-shot deer rifle could have sparked the fire just as easily as a semi-auto, since it was just one shot that went off in the room.

As to your question of "Why", it's simple economics. It's cheaper to buy ammo in bulk, or when it's on sale, or to buy gunpowder in 8-lb kegs to reload your own. For someone shooting a lot, that's possibly hundreds of dollars a year saved.

In that case, though, it IS likely that the type of firearm used played a role, as it's a lot easier to shoot 1000's of rounds of ammo from a semi-auto rifle than it is to shoot that much from a pump or bolt-action rifle.

[AAO]

24. I'd laugh my ass off if it wasn't so sad. Way to fuck your 12 yr old son out of the rest of his life

moron!

[SunSeeker]

25. Sad, but hey, thanks to those guns, at least they'll never be killed by a tyrannical government!!!!!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

28. He probably stocked up on ammo due to fear of government limits on ammo sales ...

... a fear ginned up by the gun and ammo companies for big profit.

[DrDan]

29. bull - "accidentally discharged" - guns don't kill, people kill - read that right here

[ManiacJoe]

35. They meant negligently discharged, and that happens far too often.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

40. +1. Like when they say "the car went out of control"; blame the car not the driver who lost control.

[SummerSnow]

30. no words...smh

[quakerboy]

36. Guns dont kill people

Ammunition does!

[Mr. Evil]

41. Just another sad example...

that this country has no goals or any direction save for maintaining the money flow for the status quo. That's it. No humanity, no compassion, no great challenges or achievements. This country is lost.

[Ferretherder]

60. Lost, and wandering in vast desert of vanished ideals and intellectual pursuits...

...that used to be the hallmarks of our collective vision for 'the great society'.

(sigh)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

42. When will they ever learn? How many more children have to die?

[primavera]

65. Don't hold your breath

People have such an ingrained need to believe that these sots of things only happen to other people. They, of course, are completely different; unlike those crazy types who obviously should never have been allowed to own a gun, they're responsible and law abiding, so they can safely own and handle dangerous objects without fear of anything ever going wrong. It's always somebody else's problem... until something goes wrong and they join the ranks of those they themselves dismissed as crazy types who should never have been allowed a gun in the first place.

[Paladin]

67. "My rights trump your deaths" is their latest slogan.

They consider dead children to be acceptable collateral damage.

[Blandocyte]

43. People who have dangerous hobbies sometimes die because of them

Flying planes, sky diving, racing, or even a job that puts you in the tank with a "trained" killer whale. A friend of mine was into taxidermy and his mom knocked over some of his chemicals and a pilot light ignited the fumes. Horrible burns on Mom's legs. People are allowed to have dangerous hobbies, and accidents happen. It doesn't happen only in hobbies involving guns and ammo.

[derby378]

45. I have taken to locking my ammo when not in use

The case is fire-resistant and secured with a rather stout padlock. The hinges are reinforced in case any would-be thief wants to snap the box open by being cute.

Just because I own firearms doesn't mean that I can't do my own little part for public safety.

[yellowcanine]

46. Stockpiling that ammunition really made them safe.

[Sunlei]

48. poor kid :( !!! gun/ammo hoarders should be required to carry extra insurance to cover their idiots

[brewens]

51. Makes you wonder why anyone would want to be a fireman sometimes? How long

before we have several firemen killed in what seemed to be a routine house fire? Unless it's already happened because of someone's weapons cache.

[happyslug]

53. Actually they have been a lot of fires involving ammunition

Most cases end up with no one being injured for the reasons I stated above, fixed cased ammunition for small arms (Shotguns, Rifles and Pistols) if caught in a fire and the fire sets off the round, it is rare for the powder to penetrate the cardboard box the ammunition is sold in, let alone anything else.

Now, firemen tend to be conservative and stays out of such fire tell the ammunition stops going off, but standard ammunition is very safe even in a fire.

As I said above, I suspect this involved loose powder improperly stored AND someone NOT taking the time to secure the powder before he was distracted by something else (in this case showing off his AR-15).

As to dealers, most follow Federal Regulations on storage of loose powder, rarely keeping more then a few container out side a fire proof safe. The Safe is NOT to prevent theft, but to make sure that the store does NOT have to much powder is exposed to fire, if a fire should break out.

[truthisfreedom]

56. Guns and ammo don't mix

In the same room.

[Doctor_J]

61. Darwin's mills grind slowly...

but eventually Natural Selection does its thing

[Politicub]

63. Another tragedy that could have been avoided

It seems its the people with a minimum number of brain cells are the ones amassing arsenals to presumably protect us from tyranny. Or something like that.

Is it really that easy to discharge an assault rifle? You can't even use something as mundane as a drill without holding down two buttons and standing on one leg.

But an instrument of death like a gun can seemingly fire by the owner merely stroking and kissing his precious.