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Bozita

(26,955 posts)
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 12:40 PM Feb 2012

Court: Rights don't have to be read to prisoners

FEBRUARY 21, 2012 AT 10:57 AM
Court: Rights don't have to be read to prisoners
BY ASSOCIATED PRESS 0 COMMENTS


Washington— The Supreme Court says the police don't have to read Miranda rights to prison inmates every time they interrogate them about crimes unrelated to their current incarceration.

This came as the high court Tuesday overturned a federal appeals court decision in a Michigan case that throws out Randall Lee Fields' conviction.

Fields was in prison on disorderly conduct charges when a jail guard and sheriff's deputies from Lenawee County started interrogating him about allegations that he had sexually assaulted a minor. Fields confessed and was convicted of criminal sexual assault.

Fields appealed the use of his confession, saying that he was never given his Miranda rights on the sexual assault charges.

more...
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120221/POLITICS03/202210397/1361/Court--Rights-don’t-have-to-be-read-to-prisoners


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The Detroit News headline is somewhat misleading.

28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Court: Rights don't have to be read to prisoners (Original Post) Bozita Feb 2012 OP
Our rights are continuing to be dismantled. n/t geardaddy Feb 2012 #1
He was already Mirandized? CAPHAVOC Feb 2012 #2
The Very Charges Call Into Question DallasNE Feb 2012 #8
If you are drunk or under the influence of drugs YOU TOOK YOURSELF, the law is clear... happyslug Feb 2012 #21
I'm Not Talking About DallasNE Feb 2012 #24
And the law is quite clear, the defendant is out of luck, his rights were read and he waived them happyslug Feb 2012 #27
Law enforcement nykym Feb 2012 #3
Police only has to give you the Miranda rights if you are a suspect.... happyslug Feb 2012 #22
The United States Supreme Cowards has become a total political tool and is no longer Lint Head Feb 2012 #4
This Supreme Court just keeps chipping away at our constitutional rights. Comrade Grumpy Feb 2012 #5
This Supreme Court just keeps chipping away at our constitutional rights. gmpierce Feb 2012 #14
Of course President Obama's appointees were split on this on. The overall vote was 6-3. n/t 24601 Feb 2012 #19
Once you're a prisoner Doc Holliday Feb 2012 #6
Because the right against self incrimination is constitutional primavera Feb 2012 #15
The SCOTUS doesnt agree with that conclusion though. cstanleytech Feb 2012 #25
Yeah, but with THIS Court... primavera Feb 2012 #26
I agree with you they have been wrong more often than they have been right for the past few years. cstanleytech Feb 2012 #28
In one sense, I don't have a problem with this. MarianJack Feb 2012 #7
You may be missing the point. OVERPAID01 Feb 2012 #11
This is true,... MarianJack Feb 2012 #18
Not quite primavera Feb 2012 #16
True,... MarianJack Feb 2012 #17
It is confusing. ArtiChoke Feb 2012 #9
I don't have a problem with this. eggplant Feb 2012 #10
See post #11 greiner3 Feb 2012 #13
I still don't have a problem with it. eggplant Feb 2012 #20
This message was self-deleted by its author old man 76 Feb 2012 #12
Here is the actual Court Opinion happyslug Feb 2012 #23

DallasNE

(7,403 posts)
8. The Very Charges Call Into Question
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 02:53 PM
Feb 2012

His state of mind when his Miranda rights were given. In other words, was he too drunk or drugged out to remember. From his later reaction one would have to wonder.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
21. If you are drunk or under the influence of drugs YOU TOOK YOURSELF, the law is clear...
Wed Feb 22, 2012, 10:10 AM
Feb 2012

If you are drunk or under the influence of drugs YOU TOOK YOURSELF, the law is clear, you are still viewed as being sober. The exception is if you are under the influence of drugs or alcohol against your will, then and only then can you use the affect of the drugs or alcohol as a defense. Thus the fact he was drunk is held his fault since he took the drugs or used the alcohol himself, thus he can NOT use the drugs and.or alcohol as a defense.

DallasNE

(7,403 posts)
24. I'm Not Talking About
Wed Feb 22, 2012, 02:39 PM
Feb 2012

Using alcohol or drugs as a defense. I'm talking about law enforcement giving Miranda rights to somebody under the influence of alcohol or drugs where there is a good chance the person may not understand or remember the spiel.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
27. And the law is quite clear, the defendant is out of luck, his rights were read and he waived them
Wed Feb 22, 2012, 05:43 PM
Feb 2012

That was the point I was making, unless you can show that the use of the alcohol or drug was FORCED into the person's body, a person being on drugs or alcohol and NOT understanding what is being said by the police will be judged as if he was fully sober when those rights were read to him or her.

Now, an exception may exist for medications actually prescribed and used as prescribed but even that will be of only limited use, if the police can show the person could refuse to talk to them even in the condition left by the drugs.

My point was merely being to drunk or to high to understand what the police are saying, is NOT a defense IF the person to high or to drunk drank the alcohol or used the drugs "voluntary" i.e. NOT forced down their throat or otherwise given to them without their knowledge or consent.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
22. Police only has to give you the Miranda rights if you are a suspect....
Wed Feb 22, 2012, 10:13 AM
Feb 2012

If the police are just asking questions, then the police do NOT have to give you the Miranda Rights. The old line is if the Police give you your rights, you should have had your lawyer by your side a long time before. In simple terms, if you are read your rights STOP TALKING AND GET A LAWYER.

Lint Head

(15,064 posts)
4. The United States Supreme Cowards has become a total political tool and is no longer
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 01:15 PM
Feb 2012

an objective arbiter of justice.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
5. This Supreme Court just keeps chipping away at our constitutional rights.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 01:34 PM
Feb 2012

That's one very good argument for electing Democratic presidents.

 

gmpierce

(97 posts)
14. This Supreme Court just keeps chipping away at our constitutional rights.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 07:51 PM
Feb 2012

Yes - if you elect a "Democratic president" you will get a Republican justice - if you vote for the Republican you will get a wing-nut ideologue.

Doc Holliday

(719 posts)
6. Once you're a prisoner
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 02:31 PM
Feb 2012

you've pretty much given up all your rights as a citizen, have you not? You no longer have the right to vote, or carry a firearm, or "peacefully" assemble.

I don't see why Miranda rights should be any different. Just one more right you forfeit when you're a convict.

What are they gonna do....arrest him and put him in jail?

primavera

(5,191 posts)
15. Because the right against self incrimination is constitutional
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 08:05 PM
Feb 2012

Freedom, liberty, property, etc., can be taken away with due process of law, but the right against self incrimination isn't a right that is revoked by courts when they sentence a suspect.

MarianJack

(10,237 posts)
7. In one sense, I don't have a problem with this.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 02:52 PM
Feb 2012

Since the prisoners have already been convicted of something thay got them imprisoned, they're already guilty. The presumption of innocence isn't an issue any longer.

HOWEVER, there's a BIG difference between disturbing the peace and being a child molester. I think that law enforcement would want to read them their rights just to cover THEIR asses from any possible appearance of impropriety.

Just my 2 cents and possibly overpriced at that!

PEACE!

 

OVERPAID01

(71 posts)
11. You may be missing the point.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 03:56 PM
Feb 2012

When an officer is conducting an investigation, he is...my mistake, until now, he was entitled to remind you of "Your right to remain silent". If you are not told that you don't have to talk to them, they can "force" you to talk to them. If you are already incarcerated, this will lead to holding you in an interrogation room indefinately until you cave to whatever they want you to sign.

primavera

(5,191 posts)
16. Not quite
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 08:09 PM
Feb 2012

Being convicted means that a jury found - rightly or, as is often the case, wrongly - the defendant guilty of a very specific crime. The presumption of innocence still applies to any and all other criminal acts of which the defendant may be suspected.

MarianJack

(10,237 posts)
17. True,...
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 08:14 PM
Feb 2012

...which is why I said that in their place, I'd read the rights to protect everybody, including me.

PEACE!

ArtiChoke

(61 posts)
9. It is confusing.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 03:34 PM
Feb 2012

Let me clear it up. The poor don't have rights. If this guy was rich, would he be in jail for a D&D? Or even for the sexual assault?

eggplant

(3,911 posts)
10. I don't have a problem with this.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 03:46 PM
Feb 2012

They have to read you Miranda when they arrest you. Once you are in custody, they shouldn't have to keep reminding you of those rights. If they let you go, and then pick you up again, then sure. But as long as you are still in their custody? What would be the rule about the length of time required before the earlier Miranda wears off? Can you imagine the outcry if they were 10 minutes past that arbitrary deadline? I shudder to think of the amount of useless appeals based on that.

eggplant

(3,911 posts)
20. I still don't have a problem with it.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 11:07 PM
Feb 2012

Just because they don't have to re-read you your Miranda rights, doesn't mean that you don't still have them.

Response to Bozita (Original post)

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
23. Here is the actual Court Opinion
Wed Feb 22, 2012, 10:14 AM
Feb 2012

Last edited Wed Feb 22, 2012, 11:11 AM - Edit history (2)

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-680.pdf

The Key paragraphs in my opinion are as follows:

In determining whether a person is in custody in this sense, the initial step is to ascertain whether, in light of “the objective circumstances of the interrogation,” Stansbury v. California, 511 U. S. 318, 322–323, 325 (1994) (per curiam), a “reasonable person [would] have felt he or she was not at liberty to terminate the interrogation and leave.” Thompson v. Keohane, 516 U. S. 99, 112 (1995).....

Because he was in prison, respondent was not free to leave the conference room by himself and to make his own way through the facility to his cell. Instead, he was escorted to the conference room and, when he ultimately decided to end the interview, he had to wait about 20 minutes for a corrections officer to arrive and escort him to his cell. But he would have been subject to this same restraint even if he had been taken to the conference room for some reason other than police questioning; under no circumstances could he have reasonably expected to be able to roam free. And while respondent testified that he “was told . . . if I did not want to cooperate, I needed to go back to my cell,” these words did not coerce cooperation by threatening harsher conditions. App. to Pet. for Cert. 71a; see id., at 89a (“I was told, if I didn’t want to cooperate, I could leave”). Returning to his cell would merely have returned him to his usual environment. See Shatzer, supra, at ___ (slip op., at 14) (“Interrogated suspects who have previously been convicted of crime live in prison. When they are released back into the general prison population, they return to their accustomed surroundings and daily routine—they regain the degree of control they had over their lives prior to the interrogation”).

Taking into account all of the circumstances of the questioning—including especially the undisputed fact that respondent was told that he was free to end the questioning and to return to his cell—we hold that respondent was not in custody within the meaning of Miranda.


Thus the majority took the position that given that the defendant was already in Jail, and was told he could end the interrogation at any time, it was NOT a custodian interrogation (one where someone is place under arrest and can NOT leave until the Officer tells the Defendant that the Defendant can leave) for the prisoner could end the interrogation at any time and return to his "Normal" environment of being in Jail.

Three Justices Concurred and Dissented, they concurred that the issue was unclear when it came to Miranda warnings and people already in Jail when it came to talking to prisoners about other crimes, but dissented on the issue if Miranda Warnings should have been given. Ginsburg's dissent to short and to the point so I am adding it below in its total:

JUSTICE GINSBURG, with whom JUSTICE BREYER and JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR join, concurring in part and dissenting in part.

Given this Court’s controlling decisions on what counts as “custody” for Miranda purposes, I agree that the law is not “clearly established” in respondent Fields’s favor. See, e.g., Maryland v. Shatzer, 559 U. S. ___, ___ (2010) (slip op., at 13–16); Thompson v. Keohane, 516 U. S. 99, 112 (1995). But I disagree with the Court’s further determination that Fields was not in custody under Miranda. Were the case here on direct review, I would vote to hold that Miranda precludes the State’s introduction of Fields’s confession as evidence against him.

Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U. S. 436 (1966), reacted to police interrogation tactics that eroded the Fifth Amendment’s ban on compulsory self-incrimination. The opinion did so by requiring interrogators to convey to suspects the now-familiar warnings: The suspect is to be informed, prior to interrogation, that he “has a right to remain silent, that any statement he does make may be used as evidence against him, and that he has a right to the presence of an attorney, either retained or appointed.” Id., at 444.

Under what circumstances are Miranda warnings required? Miranda tells us “in all settings in which [a person’s] freedom of action is curtailed in any significant way.” Id., at 467. Given the reality that police interrogators “trad[e] on the
weakness of individuals,” i.e., their “insecurity about [themselves] or [their] surroundings,” id., at 455, the Court found the preinterrogation warnings set out in the opinion “indispensable,” id., at 469. Those warnings, the Court elaborated, are “an absolute prerequisite in overcoming the inherent pressures of the interrogation atmosphere,” id., at 468; they “insure” that the suspect is timely told of his Fifth Amendment privilege, and his freedom to exercise it, id., at 469.

Fields, serving time for disorderly conduct, was, of course, “i[n] custody,” but not “for purposes of Miranda,” the Court concludes. Ante, at 14. I would not train, as the Court does, on the question whether there can be custody within custody. Instead, I would ask, as Miranda put it, whether Fields was subjected to “incommunicado interrogation . . . in a police-dominated atmosphere,” 384 U. S., at 445, whether he was placed, against his will, in an inherently stressful situation, see id., at 468, and whether his “freedom of action [was] curtailed in any significant way,” id., at 467. Those should be the key questions, and to each I would answer “Yes.”

As the Court acknowledges, Fields did not invite or consent to the interview. Ante, at 14. He was removed from his cell in the evening, taken to a conference room in the sheriff ’s quarters, and questioned by two armed deputies long into the night and early morning. Ibid. He was not told at the outset that he had the right to decline to speak with the deputies. Ibid. Shut in with the armed officers, Fields felt “trapped.” App. to Pet. for Cert. 71a. Although told he could return to his cell if he did not want to cooperate, id., at 71a–72a, Fields believed the deputies “would not have allowed [him] to leave the room,” id., at 72a. And with good reason. More than once, “he told the officers . . . he did not want to speak with them anymore.” 617 F. 3d 813, 815 (CA6 2010). He was given water, App. to Pet. for Cert. 74a, but not his evening medications,
id., at 79a.* Yet the Court concludes that Fields was in “an interrogation environment in which a reasonable person would have felt free to terminate the interview and leave.” Ante, at 15 (quoting Yarborough v. Alvarado, 541 U. S. 652, 665 (2004)).

Critical to the Court’s judgment is “the undisputed fact that [Fields] was told that he was free to end the questioning and to return to his cell.” Ante, at 17. Never mind the facts suggesting that Fields’s submission to the overnight interview was anything but voluntary. Was Fields “held for interrogation”? See Miranda, 384 U. S., at 471. Brought to, and left alone with, the gun-bearing deputies, he surely was in my judgment.

Miranda instructed that such a person “must be clearly informed that he has the right to consult with a lawyer and to have the lawyer with him during interrogation.” Ibid. Those warnings, along with “warnings of the right to remain silent and that anything stated can be used in evidence against [the speaker],” Miranda explained, are necessary “prerequisite[s] to [an] interrogation” compatible with the Fifth Amendment. Ibid. Today, for people already in prison, the Court finds it adequate for the police to say: “You are free to terminate this interrogation and return to your cell.” Such a statement is no substitute for one ensuring that an individual is aware of his rights.

For the reasons stated, I would hold that the “incommunicado interrogation [of Fields] in a police-dominated atmosphere,” id., at 445, without informing him of his rights, dishonored the Fifth Amendment privilege Miranda was designed to safeguard.
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