Israeli court rejects Israeli nationality status

[dipsydoodle]

Source: Associated Press

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israel's population registry lists a slew of "nationalities" and ethnicities, among them Jew, Arab, Druse and more. But one word is conspicuously absent from the list: Israeli.

Residents cannot identify themselves as Israelis in the national registry because the move could have far-reaching consequences for the country's Jewish character, the Israeli Supreme Court wrote in documents obtained Thursday.

The ruling was a response to a demand by 21 Israelis, most of whom are officially registered as Jews, that the court decide whether they can be listed as Israeli in the registry. The group had argued that without a secular Israeli identity, Israeli policies will favor Jews and discriminate against minorities.

In its 26-page ruling, the court explained that doing so would have "weighty implications" on the state of Israel and could pose a danger to Israel's founding principle: to be a Jewish state for the Jewish people.

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_ISRAELI_NATION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-10-04-02-25-43

[Loudly]

1. It's a sanctuary first and foremost. n/t

[starroute]

5. A sanctuary pretending to be a nation-state

Israel appears to want all the privileges of both and the responsibilities of neither.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

9. Great response.

Yeah, a sanctuary for whom? For those only so privileged?

[JDPriestly]

10. A sanctuary for the Jewish people who were dispersed after the destruction of the temple

in approximately 70 a.d. and subsequently persecuted everywhere they tried to live in peace.

That's what the sanctuary is for.

It amazes me that some who would demand sanctuaries for wolves and lions and gorillas, etc., cannot understand that certain people, people who are threatened constantly or have been threatened constantly by others, need sanctuaries.

It isn't just Jewish people who need a sanctuary. It is also many, many indigenous peoples around the world. No one thinks it is odd to set aside land and declare it a sanctuary for members of a certain indigenous tribe. Everyone recognizes that they are endangered, their culture and their lifestyle at risk.

But over a thousand years after the Roman conquest and takeover of Israel and all the horrible persecution of Jews since that time, people begrudge them a sanctuary. Israel is a tiny country in the vast area of the Middle East.

Get used to it. Let's see people show at least as much compassion for the Jewish people as they do for the gorillas. Could you please?

[Ash_F]

12. That's not what this is about.

This is about discrimination against Arab Israelis.

[JDPriestly]

15. Israel was established as a sanctuary for Jews. And people hate Jews, therefore they hate

Israel. I'm sure there are lots of people who hate other singularly persecuted groups. But those groups need a sanctuary anyway.

Other groups have safe places to live. Why shouldn't Jews have a safe refuge?

The Arabs have a huge, immense area in which they can live in peace.

And Egypt is anything but safe for their Christian minority. I see very few posts on DU protesting the "Arab" (do you mean Muslim?) discrimination against Christians. It seems that the only discrimination that matters is the alleged Israeli discrimination against Arabs and Christians.

Yet there are members of non-Jewish minorities in the Israeli parliament as I understand it. Where are the non-Muslim members of the Egyptian government?

Let's bring some facts to this discussion:

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2010 was estimated at 1,617,000, representing 20.5% of the country's population.[2] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins and Druze tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8][9][10][11]

Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.[12] They have the right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights.[13]

. . . .

Palestinian Arabs sat in the state's first parliamentary assembly; as of 2011, 13 of the 120 members of the Israeli Parliament are Arab citizens, most representing Arab political parties, and one of Israel's Supreme Court judges is a Palestinian Arab.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Show at least as much compassion for Jews as you would for other groups. Israel is not the racist nation that some wish it was.

[Ash_F]

20. If you have read my posts on this forum,

you would see that I am a vocal critic of the right wing military dictatorship in Egypt.

Israel is a racist nation with racist policies. However, there are many good people fighting against racial discrimination over there, who consider themselves Israelis and wish to be regarded as such.

"Show at least as much compassion for Jews as you would for other groups."

This comment is severely out of line. Did you even read the article? This is a court case between Jews.

[JDPriestly]

22. In understand the court case.

If you read my post # 15, you will understand that Israel includes non-Jews in its government.

Non-Jews are a minority in Israel.

Israel was created to be and remains first and foremost, a sanctuary for Jews. If you read my post # 10, you will understand that I believe that endangered peoples, groups deserve at least the same right to sanctuary as endangered animals. We can grant that at the very least.

Israel is a tiny drop of a country compared to its neighbors like Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Iran or even Jordan.

Why begrudge this people their tiny bit of peace and self-determination.

I feel the same way about many other people on this earth. Let Israel be.

Concentrate on criticizing other countries who treat their minorities far more cruelly than does Israel.

People pick on Israel because of their ingrained anti-Jewish feelings.

Does Palestine allow Jews to live and practice their religion and lifestyle within their territory? I honestly don't know. Do you?

[Ash_F]

25. Palestine is not currently a country

It is a giant ghetto regulated by and subject to Israel.

I am aware that there are non-Jews in the Israeli government. That doesn't mean that institutional racism does not exist. It is astonishing if you are implying otherwise.

"Let Israel be"

Once again, this story is about a domestic dispute between Israelis; between moderates and right wingers. No outside interference is going on here.

[JDPriestly]

26. Let's hope current plans to negotiate peace between Palestiinians and Israel are productive

Last edited Fri Oct 4, 2013, 04:45 PM - Edit history (1)

and ends with the definition of the borders of two brother countries.

[Ash_F]

27. It's hard to disagree with that.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

14. Um, I'm Jewish ...

So, please save your righteous indignation.

What about the other indigenous people of Israel? Do they get a sanctuary, too? Or are you just selective?

[JDPriestly]

16. See my post at 15.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

18. That still didn't address my point, but okay. nt

[closeupready]

24. Lots of insensitive people on this 'liberal' board.

I've always been mildly aware of this, but it's becoming increasingly hard to ignore that fact. Kind of a downer.

[Ash_F]

28. In a dispute between moderate and right wing Jews

Supporting the moderates earns you some quotes around your liberal tag.

[closeupready]

29. Sorry, it was more of a general remark, I probably

should have just kept that observation to myself, since it wasn't strictly topical.

Peace.

[Loudly]

32. Sure, just put the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in charge of Israel.

He seems like a fair-minded man.

[cosmicone]

2. Imagine if the US constitution said

only white anglo-saxons can be called American.

[karynnj]

4. Not a good analogy - just note our President - elected in a landslide - is not in the dominant group

as you define it.

In addition, here we all would sat we are American. No one in Israel can OFFICIALLY be called an Israeli - the equivalent of American in your analogy. (I personally have met many Israelis who called themselves Israeli - though obviously that is not what they are in the registry. It is difficult to come up with a good American counterpart - because religion does not create the same breaks between advantaged and disadvantaged here. Color comes closer, but I assume that the Columbia/Harvard educated Obama likely had at least as many whites in his inner circle of friends as blacks from the time he left college.

You would likely be more able to create an analogy for a country with a real ethnic/religious divide, (This is not to minimize that the US does have some problems with minorities.)

I know this was true in Sri Lanka - where the Tamils do not even accept the name "Sri Lanka". My daughter did a semester study abroad there in spring 2008. When Obama won the US presidency, she sent me a link to the comments in an English language paper there. It inspired many - but they were quick to note that a Tamil Hindu or Moslem or a Christian could never be elected to lead in Sri Lanka. Many noted it was unlikely to happen in their life time. There, your ethnic/religious status is who you are.

I admire the Israeli Jews who pushed this issue. I would guess that they support a one state solution with equal rights for all. This is a solution that would likely result in a secular country with a large Jewish minority - rather than majority in the near future. This is also why many wanting both a democracy and a Jewish state know that the 2 state solution is the only thing - other than an apartheid like state - that can have both.

[happyslug]

6. That was Tandy's Ruling in Dred Scott

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott

Now, the Dred Scott decision is one of the most divisive decisions ever issued,

More on US Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger B. Taney:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_B._Taney

Dred Scott case including lower court rulings:
http://digital.wustl.edu/d/dre/browse.html

Six concurring opinions, Two Dissenting opinions, in addition to Tandy's decsion (Join by only two other Justices out of the then 10 Justices).

Tandy's decision:
http://digital.wustl.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=dre;cc=dre;view=text;idno=dre1857.0105.108;rgn=div1;node=dre1857.0105.108%3A1

In the opinion of the court, the legislation and histories of the times, and the language used in the Declaration of Independence, show, that neither the class of persons who had been imported as slaves, nor their descendants, whether they had become free or not, were then acknowledged as a part of the people, nor intended to be included in the general words used in that memorable instrument.

It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in relation to that unfortunate race, which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted. But the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken.

They had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations; and so far inferior, that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect; and that the negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his benefit. He was bought and sold, and treated as an ordinary article of merchandise and traffic, whenever a profit could be made by it. This opinion was at that time fixed and universal in the civilized portion of the white race. It was regarded as an axiom in morals as well as in politics, which no one thought of disputing, or supposed to be open to dispute; and men in every grade and position in society daily and habitually acted upon it in their private pursuits, as well as in matters of public concern, without doubting for a moment the correctness of this opinion.

[JDPriestly]

19. Please read my post Number 15.

Palestinians sit in the Knesset, the Israeli parliament. There is a non-Jewish Palestinian on the Israeli supreme court.

How many Egyptian Christians are there in the Egyptian government?

And in Saudi Arabia, what rights do Christians have?

What rights do Jews have in Egypt or Saudi Arabia or most other Middle Eastern countries for that matter?

Information can be useful.

[Snake Plissken]

8. Prior to 1924 the only real Americans were not considered Americans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Citizenship_Act_of_1924

[JDPriestly]

11. White, anglo-saxons don't need a sanctuary.

See my posts numbers 10 and 15.

[cosmicone]

13. Oh yeah?

Been to a tea party rally lately? hahahahahahaha

[24601]

3. Akward....! I doubt we'll start referring to the Israeli Ambassador as the Jewish Ambassador. What

seems missing is how this registry links to citizenship.

[JDPriestly]

17. See my post at 15.

Minorities sit in the Knesset. One Palestinian sits on the Israeli supreme court.

There is a lot of ignorance on DU.

Maybe they track the ethnicity of their citizens in order to answer people like the DUers who are utterly ignorant about Israel that they do NOT discriminate and persecute their citizens based on ethnicity or religion. They are a majority Jewish country.

But Israel does not persecute non-Jews in the way that Egypt or Saudi Arabia persecute or silence Christians.

Israel is Israel because of the abominable treatment of the Jews, especially in Europe over many, many centuries.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

7. Can we stop calling Israel a secular state now?

??

[JDPriestly]

21. Read my post Number 15, please.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

23. I did.

It reeks of anti-Arab racism. It's like a Klan member saying "I don't hate the blacks, I just think we should live separately".

As for the rest of it, I have been pretty outspoken against discrimination of ethnic and religious minorities in Islamic countries.

[Igel]

30. They're upholding traditional practice.

The Ottoman's didn't have ethnicities as such. They had religious/ethnic distinctions. If you were Arab, swell; but what mattered was Druse, Jewish, Christian, etc.

Even in pre-nation-state Europe the idea of ethnicity dominated nationality. Only when nations assimilated minorities so there was a kind of national culture that trumped local ethnicity or religion did the current idea catch on.

It's been handily rejected in the US for a lot of people who insist on not just being "Americans" in a melting-pot/nation-state sort of way but insist that they're as much X in X-American as they are American. It's funny talking to somebody who's really adamantly like that, because my response is that I'm just "American". Some express bewilderment; some indignation; some condescension.

A lot of countries missed that wave of assimiliation to a national identity. In some cases the borders were drawn to mirror the local identity (so Egypt is special among Arab nations).

[booley]

31. maybe there should be far reaching consequences

I recall someone once saying that Israel wants to be a jewish state, a democracy and a free country. But that it cant' be all three. It has to eventually choose two.

There is discrimination against non jews in israel and it will only get worse as those not of the right religion have thier second class citizens status reinforced.