Report: legendary Vietnamese general dies

[jsr]

Source: CNN

(CNN) -- Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, a man credited with major victories against the French and the American military, has died, according to local media reports. Giap was 102.

Giap is credited with the Tet offensive and the siege of Dien Bien Phu.

Born into a family of rice farmers, Giap got involved in politics at an early age. At 18 his politics got him thrown in jail, under suspicion of revolutionary agitation.

He earned a doctorate and students remember him as unusually passionate about military strategy. Theory became reality for Giap in the early 1940s when he joined Ho Chi Minh and battled French colonial forces.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/04/world/asia/vietnam-general-death/

[Aristus]

1. Anyone thinking that North Vietnam was a "nation of peasants",

for lack of a better term, would be astonished at the level of education, sophistication, and cosmopolitanism among the North Vietnamese leadership.

The 'rice-farmer' image did a disservice to what has been in the past a highly sophisticated culture with a long, complex history.

Giap was a tremendous leader.

As a nation, we would do better to keep in mind that 'making the world America' is an outlook that demeans and insults nearly everybody...

[MisterP]

5. and before that it was "make the world France"!

incl. Indochina and Algeria (no niqabs then, either), of course: tensions rise and their resolution was forcibly thwarted
Britain's mode of rule was "play 'em off against each other" and the US's "switch 'em around": none of them work well either

[Comrade Grumpy]

2. Drove out the French and the Americans. Pretty impressive.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. The fact is that the Vietnamese were the last people to stand up against US military forces

and not get crushed into submission. Giap worked under incredibly difficult circumstances, outgunned at all times, and managed to fight the greatest military force on the planet to a draw. A bloody awful draw, at a terrible cost to the Vietnamese people and to our own sons and daughters.

[Downtown Hound]

4. The Iraqi insurgency survived us for

nearly a decade, with no superpowers propping them up (the Vietnamese had the Soviet Union and China). While they may not have done the damage to our military that the Vietnamese did, I would hardly say that they got crushed into submission.

Also, bear in mind that medical technology has improved greatly since the Vietnam War. Vietnam had a dead to wounded ratio of 1 to 3 for the Americans. In Iraq it was 1 to 8. If we had gone into Iraq with 1906's medical technology, our death toll would have been much higher.

[The Wizard]

6. Brilliant stratagest and tactician

The war would have gone on longer without the Tet Offensive. Any government imposed at gunpoint is anything but democracy.

[Hayabusa]

12. Agreed.

On both counts. I need to reread my Osprey book on the Tet campaign tonight.

[24601]

16. Tet had two opposite outcomes, one military and one political. After Tet, the Viet Cong were no

longer militarily viable - it was then up to the NVA.

The political outcome was different. Americans for the most part though that everything was going well up to that point. That the VC were able to mount an offensive, albeit a military defeat, surprised and shocked the country and the view of the war changed significantly.

By the time Nixon took over the next year, he faced more opposition on Viet Nam than he could ever overcome.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

18. Sometimes I think Tet was an NVA plot ...

... to get rid of the VC. To clear the post-war political playing field.

Arm the VC, get them to assault the US forces head-on (a style of attack they were not accustomed to). Result: no more VC.

[Bigmack]

20. I agree... nt

[Octafish]

7. CNN menions NOTHING about Giap and Ho's fight against Japan in WW-2.

Last edited Fri Oct 4, 2013, 02:56 PM - Edit history (1)

Remarkable display of how a small omission creates a big difference in impression -- during World War 2, Vietnam fought with the Allies against the Empire of Japan. After the war, the French returned to resume control of their colony. The Vietnamese said, "No thanks. We prefer to be free." Guess which side the Dulles Brothers took?

-------------------------------

The general knew that size of the dog in the fight didn't matter as much as the size of the fight in the dog.

As a youngster of 14, I heard a radio interview with a soldier in which she described how, when moving a piece of artillery up steep and muddy hills, a soldier would throw him or her self under a wheel to prevent the cannon from rolling backward. I did not understand, then, that there were things for which a person would give up life. The wars in Vietnam were for Independence and Freedom. And now I understand the sacrifice.

PS: Many in my family were called to fight Gen. Giap and his armies and the Viet Cong and their organization, many were drafted. At the time, service to the United States was what their duty. Those still alive now still feel that way, but today have a better understanding of what the true picture was and is about the war in Vietnam:

The U.S. in Vietnam was our nation's attempt to show the commies who's boss, even if it is their country. It's a lesson that has been lost on too many in the current leadership.

ETA: Parts about WWII and Japan above the dotted line.

PS: Sorry about the dupe, Pinto and DU...Searched under ''Giap.''

[rwsanders]

10. Well I would add to this, (I wish I had references)...

that they were trying to rid themselves of a corrupt monarchy (were they puppets of the French?) and only turned to the communist countries when the west refused to assist or acknowledge them.
I wonder if they turned to them knowing the history of the U.S. "assistance" in the Philippines?

I do have one article that said that after WW2 a U.S. plane flew over and the people cheered, believing they would soon be honored for their resistance to the Japanese, not knowing what was to come after.
http://zinnedproject.org/2013/06/camouflaging-the-vietnam-war-how-textbooks-continue-to-keep-the-pentagon-papers-a-secret/

[Octafish]

19. The French elite are something.

From an excellent timeline at History Website:

September 26, 1945 - The first American death in Vietnam occurs, during the unrest in Saigon, as OSS officer Lt. Col. A. Peter Dewey is killed by Viet Minh guerrillas who mistook him for a French officer. Before his death, Dewey had filed a report on the deepening crisis in Vietnam, stating his opinion that the U.S. "ought to clear out of Southeast Asia."

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html

Regarding the Pentagon Papers and academia: It is a shame on many of the United States institutions and educators of higher learning to hide the truth from students -- who represent the future. The reason is to allow treason to prosper, the War Party.

There was a time when peace trumped money - a war hero who lost a brother in combat was President.

Capitalism's Invisible Army must've thought otherwise. From DU2:

'Arrogant' CIA Disobeys Orders in Viet Nam



A bit of history from the last weeks of President Kennedy's life,
courtesy of The Education Forum by DUer John Simkin :

'SPOOKS' MAKE LIFE MISERABLE FOR AMBASSADOR LODGE

'Arrogant' CIA Disobeys Orders in Viet Nam

Richard Starnes
The Washington Daily News, Wednesday, October 2, 1963, p.3

SAIGON, Oct.2 - The story of the Central Intelligence Agency's role in South Viet Nam is a dismal chronicle of bureaucratic arrogance, obstinate disregard of orders, and unrestrained thirst for power.

Twice the CIA flatly refused to carry out instructions from Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge, according to a high United States source here.

In one of these instances the CIA frustrated a plan of action Mr. Lodge brought with him from Washington because the agency disagreed with it.

This led to a dramatic confrontation between Mr. Lodge and John Richardson, chief of the huge CIA apparatus here. Mr. Lodge failed to move Mr. Richardson, and the dispute was bucked back to Washington. Secretary of State Dean Rusk and CIA Chief John A. McCone were unable to resolve the conflict, and the matter is now reported to be awaiting settlement by President Kennedy.

It is one of the developments expected to be covered in Defense Secretary Robert McNamara's report to Mr. Kennedy.

Others Critical, Too

Other American agencies here are incredibly bitter about the CIA.

"If the United States ever experiences a 'Seven Days in May' it will come from the CIA, and not from the Pentagon," one U.S. official commented caustically.

("Seven Days in May" is a fictional account of an attempted military coup to take over the U.S. Government.)

CIA "spooks" (a universal term for secret agents here) have penetrated every branch of the American community in Saigon, until non-spook Americans here almost seem to be suffering a CIA psychosis.

An American field officer with a distinguished combat career speaks angrily about "that man at headquarters in Saigon wearing a colonel's uniform." He means the man is a CIA agent, and he can't understand what he is doing at U.S. military headquarters here, unless it is spying on other Americans.

Another American officer, talking about the CIA, acidly commented: "You'd think they'd have learned something from Cuba but apparently they didn't."

Few Know CIA Strength

Few people other than Mr. Richardson and his close aides know the actual CIA strength here, but a widely used figure is 600. Many are clandestine agents known only to a few of their fellow spooks.

Even Mr. Richardson is a man about whom it is difficult to learn much in Saigon. He is said to be a former OSS officer, and to have served with distinction in the CIA in the Philippines.

A surprising number of the spooks are known to be involved in their ghostly trade and some make no secret of it.

"There are a number of spooks in the U.S. Information Service, in the U.S. Operations mission, in every aspect of American official and commercial life here, " one official - presumably a non-spook - said.

"They represent a tremendous power and total unaccountability to anyone," he added.

Coupled with the ubiquitous secret police of Ngo Dinh Nhu, a surfeit of spooks has given Saigon an oppressive police state atmosphere.

The Nhu-Richardson relationship is a subject of lively speculation. The CIA continues to pay the special forces which conducted brutal raids on Buddhist temples last Aug. 21, altho in fairness it should be pointed out that the CIA is paying these goons for the war against communist guerillas, not Buddhist bonzes (priests).

Hand Over Millions

Nevertheless, on the first of every month, the CIA dutifully hands over a quarter million American dollars to pay these special forces.

Whatever else it buys, it doesn't buy any solid information on what the special forces are up to. The Aug. 21 raids caught top U.S. officials here and in Washington flat-footed.

Nhu ordered the special forces to crush the Buddhist priests, but the CIA wasn't let in on the secret. (Some CIA button men now say they warned their superiors what was coming up, but in any event the warning of harsh repression was never passed to top officials here or in Washington.)

Consequently, Washington reacted unsurely to the crisis. Top officials here and at home were outraged at the news the CIA was paying the temple raiders, but the CIA continued the payments.

It may not be a direct subsidy for a religious war against the country's Buddhist majority, but it comes close to that.

And for every State Department aide here who will tell you, "Dammit, the CIA is supposed to gather information, not make policy, but policy-making is what they're doing here," there are military officers who scream over the way the spooks dabble in military operations.

A Typical Example

For example, highly trained trail watchers are an important part of the effort to end Viet Cong infiltration from across the Laos and Cambodia borders. But if the trailer watchers spot incoming Viet Congs, they report it to the CIA in Saigon, and in the fullness of time, the spooks may tell the military.

One very high American official here, a man who has spent much of his life in the service of democracy, likened the CIA's growth to a malignancy, and added he was not sure even the White House could control it any longer.

Unquestionably Mr. McNamara and Gen. Maxwell Taylor both got an earful from people who are beginning to fear the CIA is becoming a Third Force co-equal with President Diem's regime and the U.S. Government - and answerable to neither.

There is naturally the highest interest here as to whether Mr. McNamara will persuade Mr. Kennedy something ought to be done about it.

SOURCE:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7534&mode=threaded

ADDENDUM from Education Forum writer:

“The most important consequence of the Cold War remains the least discussed. How and why American democracy died lies beyond the scope of this introductory essay. It is enough to note that the CIA revolt against the presidency of John Fitzgerald Kennedy – the single event which did more than any other to hasten its end – was, quite contrary to over forty years of censorship and deceit, both publicly anticipated and publicly opposed.

No American journalist worked more bravely to thwart the anticipated revolt than Scripps-Howard’s Richard Starnes. His ‘reward’ was effectively to become a non-person, not just in the work of mainstream fellow-journalists and historians, but also that of nominally oppositional Kennedy assassination writers. It could have been worse: John J. McCone, Director of Central Intelligence, sought his instant dismissal; while others within the agency doubtless had more drastic punishment in mind, almost certainly of the kind meted out to CBS’ George Polk fifteen years earlier.

This time, shrewder agency minds prevailed. Senator Dodd was given a speech to read by the CIA denouncing Starnes in everything but name. William F. Buckley, Jr., suddenly occupied an adjacent column. In short, Starnes was allowed to live, even as his Scripps-Howard career was put under overt and intense CIA scrutiny - and quietly, systematically, withered on the Mockingbird vine.”

From “Light on a Dry Shadow,” the preface to ‘Arrogant’ CIA: The Selected Scripps-Howard Journalism of Richard T. Starnes, 1960-1965 (provisionally scheduled for self-publication in November 2006).

As far as I am aware, the remarkable example (above) of what Claud Cockburn called “preventative journalism” has never appeared in its entirety anywhere on the internet. Instead, readers have had to make do with the next-day riposte of the NYT’s Arthur Krock. The latter, it should be noted, was a veteran CIA-mouthpiece and messenger boy.

Dick Starnes was 85 on July 4, 2006. He remains, in bucolic retirement, a wonderfully fluent and witty writer; and as good a friend as any Englishman could wish for.

I dedicate the despatch’s web debut to Judy Mann, in affectionate remembrance.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7534

The Education Forum is an outstanding resource for those interested in President Kennedy, his administration, and his assassination.

From what we've learned in the last few years is that Lodge also was disregarding orders -- from President Kennedy.

More here:

Vietnam and Iraq Wars Started by Same People

Know your BFEE: Hitler s Bankers Shaped Vietnam War

JFK Would NEVER Have Fallen for Phony INTEL!

Old news to you, Overseas. Thank you for the kind reminder, my Friend.

[Ash_F]

14. Thank you for posting this. /nt

[Octafish]

17. Good source on JFK and Vietnam Withdrawal Plans

Vietnam Withdrawal Plans

The 1990s saw the gaps in the declassified record on Vietnam filled in—with spring 1963 plans for the complete withdrawal of U.S. forces. An initial 1000 man pullout (of the approximately 17,000 stationed in Vietnam at that time) was initiated in October 1963, though it was diluted and rendered meaningless in the aftermath of Kennedy's death. The longer-range plans called for complete withdrawal of U. S. forces and a "Vietnamization" of the war, scheduled to happen largely after the 1964 elections.

The debate over whether withdrawal plans were underway in 1963 is now settled. What remains contentious is the "what if" scenario. What would Kennedy have done if he lived, given the worsening situation in Vietnam after the coup which resulted in the assassination of Vietnamese President Diem?

At the core of the debate is this question: Did President Kennedy really believe the rosy picture of the war effort being conveyed by his military advisors. Or was he onto the game, and instead couching his withdrawal plans in the language of optimism being fed to the White House?

The landmark book JFK and Vietnam asserted the latter, that Kennedy knew he was being deceived and played a deception game of his own, using the military's own rosy analysis as a justification for withdrawal. Newman's analysis, with its dark implications regarding JFK's murder, has been attacked from both mainstream sources and even those on the left. No less than Noam Chomsky devoted an entire book to disputing the thesis.

But declassifications since Newman's 1992 book have only served to buttress the thesis that the Vietnam withdrawal, kept under wraps to avoid a pre-election attack from the right, was Kennedy's plan regardless of the war's success. New releases have also brought into focus the chilling visions of the militarists of that era—four Presidents were advised to use nuclear weapons in Indochina. A recent book by David Kaiser, American Tragedy, shows a military hell bent on war in Asia.

CONTINUED with very important IMFO links:

http://www.history-matters.com/vietnam1963.htm

PS: You are welcome, Ash F. Thank you for caring about the truth and what it means for our future.

[Link Speed]

8. "It was our country."

When asked by McNamara how Vietnam could justify losing a generation of men in the struggle.

[Sunlei]

9. lived to 102! may all our own Vietnam Vets live as long & healthy, happy lives.

[Posteritatis]

11. Not many people can say they left that big a mark on the twentieth century.

His later years were interesting too - he threw himself into ecological work, I believe.

[swilton]

13. Luckily

I was able to have access to some Vietnamese journals recognizing the fiftieth anniversary of the Battle (victory) of Dien Ben Phu. It was amazing to see the archival photographs of the civilians (especially women) with their bicycles laden with bags of rice to provide logistic support.

One of my favorite movies on Vietnam was the 2002 version of the Quiet American.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0258068/

I'm certain many of you have seen it - written by Graham Greene, former intelligence officer, it is about the early US involvement in Vietnam. The 2002 version of the movie is distinguished from the 1958 version which was heavily McCarthyesque politicized.

One of my favorite authors about Vietnam and Dien Ben Phu was Bernard Fall's HELL IN A VERY SMALL PLACE. One of the first academics to formally oppose the Vietnam War, Fall was killed prematurely when he stepped on a landmine while conducting research in Vietnam. Fall had been a French resistance fighter and that experience gave him an appreciation of guerilla warfare. After earning a PhD from Syracuse, he taught at Howard University. His book STREET WITHOUT JOY was required reading for US Army officers going to Vietnam. His papers are on file at the Kennedy Library.


http://bernardfall.com/

In 2004-5 (+/-) I had the opportunity to meet his widow who had just published a book on his biography - she was able to speak at a meeting of Progressive Democrats in Silver Spring, Md.

[tabasco]

15. Giap said he studied the strategy of Gen. George Washington

learning how to defeat an empire.

A brilliant officer and it would do our war colleges well to study his strategies.

[bemildred]

21. A man who was in fact what Kissinger and Zbig wanted so much to be. nt