Pope stresses 'service' role for women in Catholic Church

[onehandle]

Source: AFP



Vatican City (AFP) - The role of women in the Roman Catholic Church should be one of "service" and not "servitude", the pope said at a Vatican conference on Saturday.

Pope Francis said he "suffered" when he saw "in the Church, or in certain Church organisations... that the woman's service role slips into one of servitude," the agency I-Media quoted him as saying.

He also singled out two dangers facing Catholic women, beginning with "motherhood being reduced to a social role".

On the other hand, he said that the "sort of emancipation" that allows women to enter traditionally male domains may rob them of "the very femininity that characterises them".


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/pope-stresses-role-women-catholic-church-160723541.html

[skepticscott]

1. In other words

Congratulate us for only making women second class citizens, because we could make them servants.

Yeah, this pope is really a 21st century guy.

[rug]

3. Can you rebut his actual words?

[DURHAM D]

6. Do you support the last sentence in the OP?

[rug]

7. I tend not to support or oppose reportage.

Produce the actual statement if you want to discuss it.

[DURHAM D]

11. Bless you rug, may all of your women remain feminine.

[rug]

14. Do you consider that a slur?

What do you call feminists?

[DURHAM D]

15. Feminists

[rug]

18. Do you consider them feminine?

[DURHAM D]

20. Not for me to say or assign.

But apparently you, like the Pope, think it is okay for men to do just that.

[rug]

21. Are there any other words in the language you may not pronounce?

It's curious because you certainly used it as an apparent epithet.

[Arugula Latte]

64. It's interesting you spend so much of your time defending sexist bullshit from this church.

[rug]

66. It's interesting you spend so much of your time typing posts like this.

65. May your disgusting church crumble into the dust of history, you creep.

[yardwork]

41. LOL! You can't make this up.

Seriously. You think it's just fine to tell women that they shouldn't get jobs because it will undermine their "feminine" identity? Seriously? You seriously believe this?

That's what the pope said.

[warrant46]

50. He is a Nasty man in an ancient costume to match his ancient and evil culture of hate

[seabeyond]

51. if a mere job can allow us to lose this however defined femininity? then ya....

i would consider there be a problem

fem·i·nin·i·ty (fm-nn-t)
n. pl. fem·i·nin·i·ties
1. The quality or condition of being feminine.
2. A characteristic or trait traditionally held to be female.
3. Women considered as a group.
4. Effeminacy.

fem·i·nine (fm-nn)
adj.
1. Of or relating to women or girls. See Synonyms at female.
2. Characterized by or possessing qualities generally attributed to a woman.
3. Effeminate; womanish.
4. Grammar Designating or belonging to the gender of words or grammatical forms that refer chiefly to females or to things classified as female.
n. Grammar
1. The feminine gender.
2. A word or form belonging to the feminine gender.


all femininity seems to state is being in a state of womanhood. characterized as woman. how can a job make me lose my "womanhood"?

[Moonwalk]

13. I can rebut his actual words...

actual words (more or less given how it was reported): "sort of emancipation" that allows women to enter traditionally male domains may rob them of "the very femininity that characterises them".

And yet the three Marys who went to J.C.'s tomb, who followed him as his male followers did, and the women afterwards who were part of the early Church and spread the word of J.C. as male followers did, including all those women saints who spread the word of J.C. as male saints did, and all those women missionaries, including Mother Teresa, who did missionary work as male missionaries of the church did NEVER lost their femininity while being in roles that were considered male domains.

Of course, this rebut also asks: What exactly does he mean by femininity? Does he means that women priests wouldn't be mothers? Nuns have been around for thousands of years not being mothers and I don't seem him arguing that they lost their femininity for this.

So what does he mean by femininity? How would it be lost by entering into male domains? And why should it be preserved at the cost of women not being able to serve the church at higher levels?

I'm sorry, but he's blowing the same smoke out his ass as every male dominated religion does when women ask for equal rights and they don't want to give it to them. "You're a very special little girl who gets to do a very special job that god intended you to do. That's why you can't do a man's job, because then you wouldn't be able to do your special job. See? It's all because you're special, not because we're sexist...of course we men will tell you exactly what that job is, because you're not so special that you get to define it..."

What bullshit!

[rug]

17. Apparently not.

This whole conversation, what I can piece of it, is about humility, contrasting service with servitude. I will assume you know that one of his chief titles is "Servant of the servants of God" (Servus servorum Dei), which denotes that one of the purposes of the Church is service. His comment in fact acknowledges that historically the hierarchy has placed women in the role of servitude rather than as equals in service. It's far more promising than the caterwauling suggests.

[Moonwalk]

53. *Sigh* No, it's not. It's like telling workers who have been slaving for free that they're...

...going to be paid (yay!)...but they still won't be given the chance to earn more than minimum wage because their work is valued only at that level. You wouldn't totally approve of such a message, would you? So why approve, with no reservations, of this one?

He started out fine. Treat women with respect and all Good on him and here's his pat on the back for not being a totally asshole like his predecessor. But he blew it with by adding "but let's not allow women to serve as men do in positions of real power..." If you want to see this glass as half-full because of that first half, fine by me. Not being a Catholic, I really don't give a shit if he wants to keep women from being priests and, thus, climbing up the ladder into positions where they can create policy rather than just follow it. But I really wish he and others wouldn't try to offer reasons "Why" it has to be this way. It's a religion and he's head of that religion. So all he has to do is say, "God doesn't want it that way."

Trying to give a reason just transforms that little positive he offered into a consolation prize; it makes it clear that it's a token gesture (however genuinely felt) rather than the real thing.

[DURHAM D]

19. Excellent.

[LadyHawkAZ]

23. Femininity = mommyhood!

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/10/12/pope_francis:_women_called_to_service,_not_servitude/en1-736720

“What does this ‘special entrusting’…of the human being to woman signify? It seems evident to me that my predecessor is referring to maternity,” said Pope Francis.

“Many things can change and have changed in our cultural and social evolution, but the fact remains that it is the woman who conceives, carries in her womb and gives birth to the children of men,” the Pope continued. “And this is not simply a biological matter, but carries a wealth of implications for the woman herself, for her way of being, for her relationships, for the way in which we lend respect to human life and to life in general. Calling a woman to maternity, God entrusted the human being to her in an altogether special manner.”

The Pope warned that there are two dangers always present when speaking about this topic, calling them “two extreme opposites that destroy woman and her vocation.”

“The first is to reduce maternity to a social role, to a task, albeit noble, but which in fact sets the woman aside with her potential and does not value her fully in the building of community. This is both in the civil sphere and in the ecclesial sphere,” explained the Holy Father. “And, in reaction to this, there is the other danger in the opposite direction, that of promoting a type of emancipation which, in order to occupy spaces taken away from the masculine, abandons the feminine with the precious traits that characterize it.”

It could have been taken straight from last week's Mormon Conference.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56962132-78/lds-conference-church-women.html.csp?page=2

Apostle D. Todd Christofferson praised women for having "innate moral authority" that is particularly powerful in the home and rearing the rising generation.

"A mother," he said, "can exert an influence unequaled by any other person or in any other relationship."

He warned his Mormon listeners about three "trends and forces at work" that would "weaken and even eliminate" that influence.

Some feminist thinkers, Christofferson said, "view homemaking with outright contempt."

Second, attitudes about human sexuality, including "abortion for personal or social convenience," and promiscuity, Christofferson said, "strik[e] at the heart of a woman’s most sacred powers and destroys her moral authority."

Third, Christofferson critiqued those who, "in the name of equality, want to erase all differences between the masculine and the feminine."

"Often this takes the form of pushing women to adopt more masculine traits — be more aggressive, tough and confrontational," he said. "In blurring feminine and masculine differences, we lose the distinct, complementary gifts of men and women that together produce a greater whole."

[Moonwalk]

56. So, if the church values mommyhood so much, why priests and nuns who can't have sex?

Look. You can't have it both ways. Either refraining from sex and kids is "holy" or having sex and kids it's sacred (within marriage, fine) and everyone should be allowed to FATHER as well as mother a child.

IF the holiest people (like the Pope) don't have sex, then why promote motherhood and all that? And if motherhood is holy, then why should the holiest of church leaders be kept from producing children? Why should the church allow women to be nuns if it's so important that they be mothers?

I appreciate his effort to give moms and women respect and not treat them like shit, but this should be a GIVEN in the religion. Not a way to deflect discussions of equal rights for women, meaning positions of real power with a real say in how things are run--AND the chance to follow that calling (Priesthood) if they are called. Such women go on to be nuns and forgo motherhood anyway, so it's not like allowing them to be priests would result in less moms.

[SharonAnn]

33. If we don't share leadership and power, then it's a non-starter. I'll give my service elsewhere.

[longship]

2. My name is Pope. At your cervix.*

This guy is going to have to do a lot better than this.

Enough said?

(*Apologies to Rocky Rococo and Firesign Theater.)

[complain jane]

36. +1000

[LiberalElite]

4. Holy Hair-Splitting! n/t

[DURHAM D]

5. Oh brother

He can Dance a Little Sidestep with the best of them.

[skepticscott]

8. Yes, but there will always be those

who leap reflexively to his defense, no matter what bigoted, sexist crap spews out of his mouth, and who think that there is something wrong with pointing out his bigoted, sexist crap.

[rug]

9. As there will be those who reflexively leap to attack whatever he says, even if it's about pasta.

[xfundy]

24. Did Jiffy-Pope say anything in the pasta debate?

I must have missed it.

It does make me wonder, though, about those who obsess about others' sex lives, when they aren't even invited or involved.

Or do they demand entrance into everyone's bedroom? Seems they do.

They should have stopped diddling/destroying children, but both are still a serious problem.

[rug]

25. I must have missed it too.

The debate, that is.

[xfundy]

26. But you brought up "pasta."

Barilla is suffering from the backlash. Catholics are losing sheep, as are many denominations.

In fact, Christianity itself is suffering from the fact that repigs attached themselves to it like a giant leech, claiming it and them are the same, and believers are declining in the USA.

I don't adhere to it, but there are arguably some good parts to it (at least there were when I was a child), and many traditions have at least some good parts. The anti-christs (repugs, who do the opposite of jesus' teachings) have completely infiltrated the most public parts of the churches, and any resistance never gets coverage.

And still, the actual christians have never stood up and spoken back enough to counter it.

I don't necessarily wish for its death, but I don't see it as a bad thing.

[rug]

27. You brought up Jiffy-Pope.

At least what I brought up is a real thing.

But to seriously discuss the OP, it is a step in the right direction. But it will take more than Francis, who probably will not have a long reign, to actually move it there.

[xfundy]

28. Wow. Could you not see that was a joke, based in fact?

When the Nazi youth pope lost favor, he was quickly replaced by someone more PR friendly.

Noticed you didn't address the thousands of cases of priests molesting children, though. The stories are coming out daily.

And it was always a given (at least for 50 years) among kids to stay away from priests as they were child molesters.

[rug]

29. What does this thread have to do with molesting children?

You're becoming a caricature.

[Adsos Letter]

30. Why do you think Francis might not have a long reign?

Just curious as to what you base that on.

[rug]

32. Just his age. He'll be 77 in two months.

I was being actuarial not conspiratorial.

[Adsos Letter]

38. Ah. He looks pretty robust, so I didn't stop to consider his age.

Besides, the older I get the younger everyone else appears.

Actuarial analysis always strikes me as more likely than the usual conspiracy stuff.

Edit: punctuation...still most likely wrong.

[DURHAM D]

12. I think people see the hat and the dress and they get confused.

[skepticscott]

22. Some far more confused

than others.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

39. Skepticscott takes offense if I call him a bigot

But he has no problem calling the Pope a bigot. Do I possibly detect a bit of hypocrisy here?

[skepticscott]

42. Not if the pope really is a bigot

and the leader of a bigoted, sexist, homophobic organization. If you'd care to defend the pope and the Catholic Church as not being fundamentally sexist, have at it. You have the perfect forum, and I'm sure, a VERY sympathetic audience.

As far as I'm concerned, your only case for calling me one is to make up false quotes to try to paint other people as bigots, then try to smear me as one by association. That's about all you can muster when you're trying to defend the RCC.

[theHandpuppet]

43. +100

It never ceases to amaze me that on a supposedly progressive forum, the pronouncements from the leader of one of the world's largest sexist and homophobic organizations are posted here as news -- and benign or even good news at that. This is so bizarre and outright offensive I can't even begin to fashion a rationale for why this is allowed.

[skepticscott]

45. Religion, and especially

though not exclusively, Catholicism is regarded by many here on DU as entitled to a free pass from criticism for taking positions that, were they espoused by Republicans, would be savaged, insulted and just plain shouted down. Critical thinking and a progressive mindset go out the window in such cases, and all they have left are (bogus) accusations of anti-Catholic/religious bigotry.

[theHandpuppet]

46. Yep, and its absolutely maddening

There really is no excuse.

[skepticscott]

57. And yet DU allows posters

who defend sexism, homophobia and the coverup and abetting of child rape by the RCC to remain and flourish. The motives of any DUer that doesn't roundly condemn those things for what they are can be very difficult to reconcile.

[Arugula Latte]

68. Exactly. Homophobic, misogynist GOP = Bad. Homophobic, misogynist Church? ...

Well, you'd better watch your step when you say anything about it here!

You might even get a congratulatory thread from the site admin when the new leader of your oppressive, backwards institution is picked.

But, hey. It's "faith," so it automatically gets bubble-wrapped. Well, isn't that special?

[skepticscott]

71. Yes, and if you're defending any of that

as a religious apologist here, you get to call people hypocritical bigots whenever you want, and get patted on the back by juries for doing it.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

52. No, I call you a bigot for one and only one reason

You are a bigot. It's as simple as that.

My point is that you get all hot and bothered when you make a bigoted remark and I say, "Your remark shows bigotry", but here you call not just the Pope, but then entire Catholic Church bigoted. Simply put, you are not just a bigot, you are a hypocritical bigot.

[skepticscott]

54. Your misbegotten opinion is neither evidence

nor a rational argument. That's why it is dismissed every time you express it, without the least scrap of real support. Flinging insults in place of facts is the sure sign of intellectual bankruptcy.

[skepticscott]

60. Your so-called "point"

remains unsupported by any facts, evidence or argument, so there's nothing to address or to challenge, only to laugh at. And the irony of "ad hominems are not a meaningful response" will have escaped no one reading this (other than you, of course).

[LadyHawkAZ]

10. Of course he does!

bless his heart!

[Rebellious Republican]

16. Its a new term for an old meaning...

We want our women to be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen!
Hey they are catching up to the times they have almost made it out of the 18th century!

[uriel1972]

31. They made it to the 18th century...

Must have happened while I was asleep.

[Warpy]

34. When he orders the males in Opus Dei

to stop using women in Opus Dei as their maids once a week and clean up after themselves, maybe he'll have something.

But we all know he'd never ask men to clean up after themselves.

[gopiscrap]

35. The Pope might want to stress spelling

just ask Lesus.

[penndragon69]

37. Their new roles...

Mop the floors, wash the dishes and shine the Emperors shoe.

[theHandpuppet]

40. And this qualifies for LBN how?

I guess sometimes it's hard to find sound bytes that will skirt the rules about what really qualifies as LBN. Gotta keep the Popeness PR campaign going, though!

[davidthegnome]

44. Hmm

You know, I can never quite make up my mind about this new pope. Some times he says things I think are kind of awesome, and surprise the heck out of me coming from the leader of the Vatican. At other times, he's very... "traditional" in the sense that he carries on with traditions of the church which he knows (and pretty much everyone knows) are wrong. John Paul II was similar in this regard.

The fact of the matter is that if the church wants to become relevant in this age, if they want to take back some of the popularity and respect they had in the past, then they need to change their methods - and alter their ideology to something that is at least honest. When one reviews modern statistics, it is clear that women are just as good at (better at, in many circumstances) traditionally "male" roles, as the males!

Frankly, the church NEEDS female priests for a number of reasons. For one (and this is perhaps, the most significant to the Vatican) the church is running out of priests. When I was a young boy, every town up here had a priest for it's local church. Now, one priest typically services three or four churches on a weekly basis. The idea that women can't be priests, that God would somehow frown on it or that men are better at it, is completely ridiculous - a way of thinking that is inspiring young men and women to change their religion, or simply stop paying any attention to the Catholic church.

The very idea that marriage is somehow wrong, that intimacy between a man and woman should be denied a priest in pursuit of some holy ideal, is also ridiculous.

I was raised Catholic - and as a boy there were priests that I loved and admired, there were also some who were so moronic or ignorant that I could only roll my eyes and yawn through their sermons. Now, as a young man going on thirty, and as an agnostic, I abandoned the church several years ago. It's time for honesty, for the leaders of the church to practice what they preach - what Jesus preached. Love, forgiveness, charity, tolerance, acceptance. Does anyone at all honestly think that the Christ of the bible would be proud of the way the church is managed today?

Gandhi once said, "I like your Christ, but I'm not so sure about your Christians." I agree, very much. Regardless of my views on God or a higher power, I do know the difference between right and wrong - and so does this Pope. Equality. It is long past time. Join the modern world, or continue to lose followers, relevance and respect.

I love the idea of Christ, who he was in the bible that I read as a boy. He was awesome - were he alive today, I believe he would be kicking over temples and explaining, in slow, pointed words to the Vatican, that he is very disappointed. He was perhaps, the very first of the true liberals.

I don't like the church. Unless and until they are willing to do what we all know is right, they deserve criticism and contempt.

[nomorenomore08]

61. +1

Agree with nearly everything you said. As a "cultural Catholic" - i.e. raised and educated in the Church, but non-practicing - I'd like to be optimistic about the possibility of change, but what he's said - key word said - so far isn't enough.

[Politicub]

47. Feminine service training from the Holy See (video)

In this newly released video from the Vatican, Haley Mills and Ann Margaret teach a young woman about the virtues of femininity and how it can be put into service for men and the church.

[PassingFair]

67. Deborah Walley, not Ann Margaret.

Blech!

Happily, I've never seen that movie!

[theHandpuppet]

48. Just who's under that little red riding hood?

http://www.thenation.com/article/176345/pope-francis-sexism-human-face#
Pope Francis: Sexism With a Human Face?
He seems like a lovely, modest man, but there's no sign he will change the church’s stance on issues that matter to women.

(excerpt)

Women really get the short sleeve of the seamless garment, I must say. Realistically, ending war or poverty is way beyond the church’s power, but it has been rather effective around the world at promoting unwanted pregnancy and forced childbirth. I honor the way Catholic activists have fought the death penalty in the United States, but it is a fact that exponentially more women die because of lack of access to birth control and abortion globally than do prisoners in the execution chamber. In numerous countries where the Catholic Church is powerful—Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, the Philippines—the death penalty does not exist, and abortion is banned even to preserve the woman’s life: a serial killer is at less risk of death from the state than a pregnant woman.

Pope Francis’s record on women so far is a continuation of his conservative predecessors’. “On the ordination of women,” he has said, “that door is closed.” Church watchers can debate whether he was agreeing with John Paul II’s “definitive” (but not quite infallible) statement on the matter or simply acknowledging a current political reality. Either way, governance of the church will continue to present a Saudi-like front of solid, if not necessarily heterosexual, masculinity, and its all-important sacraments will continue to be dispensed by men alone.

Pope Francis is continuing the investigation, begun last year by Pope Benedict, of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, the progressive nuns’ organization charged with espousing “radical feminist themes” and being insufficiently zealous against abortion and gay rights. It’s hard to imagine winning many hearts and minds among American Catholic women—who use birth control and have abortions and even same-sex weddings like other American women—by putting these immensely learned, dedicated and, of course, devout women under the supervision of male authorities, as though they were children.

Pope Francis has called for a “theology of the woman,” whatever that means—as if over half the people in the world could be gathered under a single umbrella. (Does anyone talk about a “theology of the man”?) In the America interview, when asked about the role of women in the church, Francis first warned against “‘female machismo,’ because a woman has a different make-up than a man.” Then he went on to the Virgin Mary, who is best known for having a different makeup from any other woman who ever lived, and made some vague references to “the woman” as “essential for the church.” Woman as Other, Woman as Mother. That this humane, cultivated and, yes, modest man has so little sense of real women is the best argument yet against priestly celibacy.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. Proving again that every homophobe is also a misogynist.

Is there any 'Late Breaking News' about Pat Robertson today? Posting about Francis is no different than posting about 700 Club's Pope. Same same.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

55. The Christian equation: penis=wisdom.

That's the way it's always been. Not going to change.

This applies especially to the Abrahamic religions, and less so to the East Asian ones.

[alarimer]

59. Go to hell, Pope.

Signed,

A second class citizen (in your view).

THIS is the reason I am a lapsed Catholic. I am NOT a second-class citizen. I have the right, even the obligation, to fulfill my destiny however I see fit. I grew up with a mother who followed your Catholic bullshit and has been largely miserable. She's smart, she could have been anything she chose. I can't help but think of the millions like that around the world who are capable of a lot. Instead they are trapped in servitude to their husbands and children. Not my idea of a fulfilling life, certainly not from an intellectual standpoint, at least.

I don't know why any women are Catholic at this point. Of course most, if not all, religions are deeply sexist and the women trapped in them likely suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. I have know some kick-ass nuns, however, but I have also known some who beat my knuckles with a ruler for being a smart-ass.

[SocratesInSpirit]

69. +1000000

I had a very similar experience - I was raised by a devout Catholic mother, and she continues to be devoted to the church. She says it gives her strength and solace, but from where I sit, it seems to have given her even more guilt and self-loathing. The church's rigid dogma seems to take an especially vicious toll on a woman's psyche.

My mother had two daughters. My sister and I both left the church after becoming adults, and though we retained a sense of spirituality, we both have absolutely no plans of going back to organized religion. This kind of second-class citizen bullshit is exactly why. I have a daughter now, and I'm breaking the cycle. She won't grow up with the same hangups we did.

[nomorenomore08]

62. He's still giving the ultra-conservatives enough wiggle room not to have to change.

That's the problem, in part.

[MADem]

63. Sounds like semantics to me....

You're not a garbageman, you're a sanitation engineer!

You're not a janitor, you're an industrial maintenance professional!

You're not a waitress, you're a server/associate! Of course, even if we call you a server, or an associate, we'll still pay you like you're a waitress....

[Arugula Latte]

65. May your disgusting church crumble into the dust of history, you creep.

[snooper2]

70. Why does he have a little penis on top of his head?

[Arugula Latte]

72. It's to show his superiority to the penis-less wimminfolk

You know, the worthless vessel helpmates.

[cristianmarie533]

73. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

Frankly, I could care less about what the Pope believes. He's irrelevant to me.