At least eight people shot in protests in Valencia, north Venezuela

[Bacchus4.0]

Source: El Universal

A demonstration in the city of Valencia, north Venezuela, on Tuesday resulted in eight people shot.

The demonstration was reportedly ambushed by a group of individuals in motorcycles who shot and threw bottles at demonstrators.

One of the victims was Génesis Carmona, the tourism beauty queen 2013 of Carabobo state, who was shot in the head.

Demonstrations in Valencia intensified after the shooting.




Read more: http://english.eluniversal.com/nacional-y-politica/140219/at-least-eight-people-shot-in-protests-in-valencia-north-venezuela

[Tarheel_Dem]

1. How long before Obama's blamed for this?

[brooklynite]

2. No, no, no

..the injured protesters were CIA agents sent BY Obama to overthrow the Maduro Government.

You need to keep up with the discussions...

[dlwickham]

11. as were the shooters

it's all one big conspiracy

bet the beauty queen was actually a CIA agent in drag and the real one is drugged and in the basement of the White House

[Bacchus4.0]

4. already has happened

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/17/venezuelas-president-blames-u-s-for-weeks-of-anti-government-protest/

[Tarheel_Dem]

8. Well, I'm shocked! SHOCKED, I say!

[freshwest]

57. Where have you been? He's already been blamed repeatedly. He's a lightning rod:

Venezuela's Maduro blasts 'devil' Obama

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110815969

Venezuela's Maduro urges Obama to halt "plot" against rival

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014427833

The Venezuelan right wing opposition has got to be the world's most shameless

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024517397

Does Obama know of the plan to destabilize Venezuela?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022693599

MUAHAHA! If Obama was any more omnipotent and evil, he'd be twins!

[Tarheel_Dem]

86. Obama's everywhere. He's busy destabilizing the Ukraine according to Pooty Poot, all the while....

he's plotting the overthrow of Assad and Maduro. He's Super Obama!

[freshwest]

107. Just saw this again. Damn, I love that picture! n/t

[treestar]

66. 3, 2, 1

Yep and when he condemned it, he was blamed for an alleged failure to condemn the violence against occupy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=732944

[Tarheel_Dem]

85. I knew it! Like clockwork!

[flightplan]

3. Whats going on in Venezuela?

Oops, never mind.

[zeemike]

5. And of course it had to be Maduro that did it.

Who else could benefit by stirring up the shit and inflaming the situation?

[zeemike]

6. Just so we know the source...

Not exactly unbiased...

El Universal is a major Venezuelan newspaper, headquartered in Caracas with an average daily circulation of about 150,000.[dubious – discuss][1] The online version carries news, politics, sports, economy and more.

El Universal was founded in April 1909 in Caracas by the Venezuelan poet Andrés Mata and his friend Andrés Vigas.[1] Its main rival is El Nacional.

It is considered to be conservative and business-oriented,[1] though it has at times both supported and criticized the policies of former President Hugo Chávez. On the morning of 13 April 2002, when the removal of Hugo Chavez in what later came to be referred to as the 2002 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt appeared a success, the paper headlined ¡Un Paso Adelante! (One Step Forward!).[2][3]

[Zorra]

7. Good post. El Universal is the Faux News of Venezuela. nt

[zeemike]

9. And if you post a story by "the government run" news

It will be dismissed...just like the right wing in this country can dismiss the "liberal" press,

[flightplan]

12. Didn't you just do the same thing?

Are we to trust what the government says?
I know I sure as hell don't trust what my government tells us.

[zeemike]

14. Yes I did and that is my point.

If you can dismiss one you can dismiss all...a what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

But do tell us how Maduro would benefit in any way by inflaming the situration...I don't see it...the only one who would benefit is the opposition...that has always been a principle in crime investigation to see who would benefit from it.

[flightplan]

15. I don't know, maybe to give the government an excuse to crackdown the opposition?

[Zorra]

21. That is exactly what the RW wants. This is typical of RW tactics in South America.

RW governments in Latin America have historically ordered their soldiers to rape and murder innocent people, take their stuff, and burn their houses, and then use the media to blame it all on the rebels during periods of revolution.

If Maduro responds with a crackdown, he'll be playing right into the hands of Lopez and the RW.

[spanza]

78. El Universal like faux?! Why? It's more like the NYT, liberal center-right.

Parque Central is the Empire State building of Caracas
Oscar D'Leon is the Bruce Springsteen of Venezuela
Arepa is the hamburger of los llanos
Frescolita is the kool aid of the criollos... and maybe you drank a tad too much of that causing the whole world to become just a bigger scale representation of your own town

Seriously I'd say El Universal is more like the NYT, liberal center-right.

[Tarheel_Dem]

10. If that's the case, why doesn't Maduro just yank their license? His government's good at that.

Once-defiant Venezuelan TV goes quiet amid opposition protests

By Brian Ellsworth
CARACAS Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:38am EST

When security forces arrested opposition leader Leopoldo Lopez on Tuesday, bringing tens of thousands of supporters into the streets to block the path of the vehicle carrying him, networks that for years covered every twist and turn of Venezuelan politics offered almost no live coverage.

President Nicolas Maduro, who was elected last year after Chavez's death from cancer, scoffs at allegations that his government has restricted free speech, insisting he is simply seeking to prevent the media from causing panic. But he drew criticism from press freedom groups including Reporters Without Borders by ordering a Colombia-based news channel NTN24 to be removed from cable signal after it broadcast live coverage of violence that started last Wednesday.

"We are deeply concerned about the attempts at creating an information blackout by threatening local media and censoring international media that provide information about events that affect the country's citizens," Venezuela's main reporters' trade union said, also criticizing NTN24's removal from cable.

The political turnaround in Venezuela's broadcast media has happened steadily over the last seven years, beginning with Chavez's 2007 move to take the fiercely critical RCTV station off the air by denying a renewal of its broadcast license.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/19/venezuela-protests-media-idUSL2N0LJ0VF20140219

[zeemike]

13. So what do you think of this report?

[Igel]

64. I heard generalities.

They could have been discussing a wide range of things. Nothing said "violent" in what they said--unless you accepted the set up and only interpreted given what the reader said about it, reinforced by what the reader said afterwards.

It's easy to pay attention to what's there and make it fit a story that we're fed. It's harder to hear what's *not* there, what's provided by the news reader.

[zeemike]

67. Well did you expect them to discuss details?

But the reference to a "movement" and "Not on the front line" and like "April 11" and "you can gess who" should give you a clue.
But a mobster never says to a hit man "I want you to kill that guy"...that is never nessesary...he will say "take care of that for me" and that could mean anything to any one who hears it and he has plausible deni-ability.
But if you don't want to hear of it you won't.

[El_Johns]

74. RCTV: owned by the Phelps family of Boston.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024530984

[Bacchus4.0]

17. she has died according to this non-El Universal source, hope you feel better

http://www.notitarde.com/Valencia/Estado-de-la-joven-Genesis-Carmona-es-muy-delicado/2014/02/19/306552

[zeemike]

19. Don't insult me with that shit.

Saying I am happy that she died...that is over the top.
I am tired of that emotional pornography.

[Bacchus4.0]

20. you didn't believe the source, I posted that because its in English for the benefit

of non-spanish speakers. There are plenty of Spanish language sources you can find. I posted in the Latin America forum yesterday. She was with the opposition protesters and shot by government paramilitaries on motorcycles. Don't bother looking at info in your state run media.

You can't blame Leopaldo Lopez either, he was already in jail. Screw you.

[zeemike]

22. And the source has proof that they are "government paramilitary"?

Show the proof of that please, from any source you like...not just baseless speculation.

And in the video I posted is that not evidence that they piloted it to be another April 13th event?
And with the warning not to be in the front line but off to the side?

[Bacchus4.0]

23. here you go, no your video is propaganda from Telesur. Government established and funded

just more bullshit from asshole chavistas.


----------------------

Ocho personas resultaron heridas por armas de fuego en la avenida Cedeño de la ciudad de Valencia, luego de que un grupo de motorizados atacara a manifestantes opositores que se encontraban en el lugar, según reporta el El Carabobeño.

De acuerdo a la nota, un contingente de la Guardia Nacional Bolivariana se había apostado para resguardar la marcha, pero después se retiró, y ocurrió el ataque.



http://www.laverdad.com/politica/46749-fallecio-miss-que-resulto-herida-en-protesta-en-valencia.html

[zeemike]

24. Well that video contained fact in the form of an audio recording.

That is physical evidence not speculation.
Your link and your cut and past contained no evidence at all and no proof that it was Maduro that sent them to do it.

And you have not answered the most basic question of all...how did Maduro benefit in any way by doing this?...but the benefits to the opposition are clear and plentiful.

[Bacchus4.0]

25. ummm, they were right then. The government is committing violence

your video isn't evidence of shit. Its the government and their agents who are shooting at the protesters.
You never asked me any question. the protesters aren't there to benefit Maduro. The protesters, ironically, began their protests against violence and insecurity in the country due to the extraordinary and unacceptable murder rate in the country set off by the murder of the former Miss Ven and her husband a few weeks off. Maduro doesn't give a shit about the murder rate in Venezuela. If he did, they would actually try and do something about it. Most murders occur in the barrios or committed by those who live there which are bastions of chavista supporters. Add to that the paramilitary chavista supporters who control the barrios and who ride around on motos just like the ones who have been shooting supporters lately.

I imagine you were a fan of Gadafi, Assad, Dim One Il, and any other repressive government too.


here's some physical evidence bobo:

[PoliticalPothead]

28. You have failed to prove how this is the responsibility of the Venezuelan government.

"Maduro doesn't give a shit about the murder rate in Venezuela. If he did, they would actually try and do something about it."

He has done something about it.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/17/venezuela-under-attack-again/

Venezuela has high crime rate, unfortunately, just like most countries in Latin America. The recent death of a young high profile media couple spurred the opposition to exaggerate insecurity. Maduro responded by a widespread Plan for Peace with intense community policing, involving communities and communal councils, dividing the cities in sectors with hotlines and special patrols, the creation of 25 citizens committees for Police Control in total 250 people, new services for victim of crime, involvement of media to curb violent programs. This was highly popular.

"Most murders occur in the barrios or committed by those who live there which are bastions of chavista supporters."

Absolutely untrue. Yes there are some barrios that have high crime rates, but there are others that don't. Just as there are some areas which are bastions of opposition supporters that are more violent than some of the barrios. I don't see how this is relevant unless you're trying to demonize Venezuela's low income population, something RWers are known for.

"Add to that the paramilitary chavista supporters who control the barrios and who ride around on motos just like the ones who have been shooting supporters lately."

There is absolutely no evidence that the guys who shot demonstrators were ordered to do so by the Maduro government. They could have just as easily been paid off by the opposition.

[Bacchus4.0]

29. he hasn't done mierda, the murder rate has risen every year since Chavez came to power

Making announcements doesn't translate into results.

right, the barrios without the colectivos have less crime. Its very relavent, the ones shooting the students are from the colectivos which support the government.

The people shooting at the protesters are the police, the national guard, and the colectivos who ride around with the national guard with impunity. Why don't you get on youtube and you can check out all the brutality commited by security forces and their paramilitary friends. Its quite easy.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10357 (this site is chavista) Venezuelan Intelligence Official Arrested in Connection with 12 February Violence in Caracas

[PoliticalPothead]

30. Again, no evidence that Maduro's gov was responsible.

The "collectivos" could have easily been paid off by the opposition.

Also, I don't trust YouTube vids as far as I can throw them. They (like the MSM) often edit the videos to take out the provocation by RW demonstrators and only show the evil oppressive police attacking "innocent people."

[Bacchus4.0]

31. Maduro is the head of government so the responsibilties are with him, but

they did in fact charge Lopez with murder, terrorism, and arson. http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/19/world/americas/venezuela-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

So they are charging him the deaths caused by the security forces and their colectivo paramilitary friends.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/19/world/americas/venezuela-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[PoliticalPothead]

32. Good, Lopez is a RW shit stirrer who's been inciting violence.

I wouldn't be surprised if he did have something to do with it.

[Bacchus4.0]

33. do you have any evidence that Lopez ordered the opposition to shoot themselves?

I didn't think so. Maduro's police and paramilitary assassins are the ones doing the shooting.

[PoliticalPothead]

34. Do you have any evidence that Maduro ordered anyone to shoot demonstrators?

I didn't think so. Also, people from both sides were killed, not just the opposition.

[Bacchus4.0]

35. I didn't think so. thats just because fortunately they are poor shots and missed the opposition

your buddy Maduro could order the police and national guard to refrain from firing on the protesters at any time. He is president isn't he? or is Cuba calling the shots (pun intended).

Maduro does have his supporters though, I admit that. so you are in good company.

http://www.laverdad.com/politica/46751-regimen-sirio-se-solidariza-con-maduro.html

[PoliticalPothead]

36. Or maybe the opposition are poor shots and missed the pro-gov protestors.

You still have not given me one piece of evidence that Maduro or the Venezuelan gov were responsible for the killings. Nothing but assumption and conjecture.

[Bacchus4.0]

37. I just posted in #29 that a government security agent was arrested for the murders of 2

Maduro is the president, he could order the government not to shoot the protesters anymore, and call off the paramilitaries.

[PoliticalPothead]

38. How do you know he didn't?

How do you know these paramilitaries were not paid by the opposition to shoot demonstrators? If they were paid off by the opposition then Maduro's orders wouldn't really do much, now would they?

[Bacchus4.0]

40. sounds like conjecture to me. n/t

s

[PoliticalPothead]

44. It is.

The difference is I'm not afraid to admit it.

Notice how this entire thread I've been using the term "could have", as in "the opposition COULD HAVE paid off the paramilitaries."

Whereas you've been using the term "are" as in "Maduro's police and paramilitaries ARE the ones doing the shooting."

I'm just wondering what makes you so certain.

[Bacchus4.0]

46. I am not afraid of you tube and other sources of information that show the events

going on. It seems pretty clear and a government security official was already arrested for killing two (even though for some odd reason Lopez is being charged with their murders as well). There is alot of evidence out there if you care to look. I am not forcing you to look though. You are free to support Maduro and where he and chavismo have taken Venezuela.

Spiderman and telenovelas COULD be the cause of the violence in the country as Maduro said. It doesn't seem very probable though IMO.

[PoliticalPothead]

48. I am not afraid of YouTube either.

I am also not afraid to call out YouTube or any other source that shows deceptively edited videos.

Also, just because a government security official was arrested doesn't mean Maduro or the Venezuelan government as a whole was responsible. That's like saying the entire US gov is responsible whenever someone gets killed by the police.

EDIT: actually, since you're trying to pin the blame of the killings on Maduro, it's more like saying President Obama is responsible whenever someone gets killed by the police.

[Bacchus4.0]

50. No, the police in Ven are national so the president does in fact have ultimate responsibility

for their deployment and actions. So it would analagous to the US military or FBI. And the police and national guard are certainly in the streets confronting the protesters under Maduro's command. Maduro, as president, certainly can order deployment and tactics of his security forces. I do assume he has, although direction from others may be a possibility.

Thats fine you are not comfortable with you tube videos and such. I am not confortable with assessments of the situation from an article by a sworn chavista that you posted.

[PoliticalPothead]

51. Well then I guess we both have our own trusted sources.

I guess we'll just have to wait to see whose is more trustworthy.

[Bacchus4.0]

52. sounds good, and we both like your avatar too n/t

[PoliticalPothead]

54. Now that's something we can definitely agree on.

Thanks for the lively discussion. Good day and good vibes to you, Bacchus4.0

[Bacchus4.0]

42. all you did is cite an article from a chavista supporter, and you didn't refute any of my comments

most murder are committed by poor barrio dwellers and gangs who live in government strongholds and the motos riders who according to the government is responsible for 80% of crime in the country. Maduro wanted to limit their circulation but backed off when they protested. http://www.caraotadigital.net/articledetail.asp?art=1265930


Recently he has blamed soap operas for the violence and even Spiderman.

[spanza]

79. The "demonstrators shot themselves" theory? Seriously?

[PoliticalPothead]

87. Nope. It's more like the "radical opposition is attacking the moderate opposition in order to

provoke international intervention and justify a coup" theory.

It's certainly much more believable than the "Maduro is responsible for everything" theory.

[spanza]

102. Maduro has no control over the situation.

The "Maduro is responsible for everything" theory is simplistic

[Judi Lynn]

39. Using Spanish to taunt, insult a DU'er here without being called on it

is a slippery, underhanded, dirty, and petty thing to do.

You know it, we know it.

Dodn't break your arm patting yourself for getting by with it, "bobo."

[Bacchus4.0]

41. it just means fool boba. It can be feminine too n./t

[zeemike]

45. Again with the emotional pornography

And the suggestion that I am for it all...that is the kind of thing you expect to see at right wing sites.
But the murder rate in Hindus is twice what it is in Vensueala...and higher in El Salvador...why are you not upset about that?...could it be because they already have a military dictatorship the same thing you want of Venzeuela?...after all Honduras had the coup you want for them and has killed more reporters and repressed more that Chavez did.

And you have yet to explain how Maduro would benefit in any way from this....but how the opposition benefits is right before your face...you are showing the pictures to turn us against the democratically elected government and tword a takeover of it.

[hack89]

47. Except the murder rate in VZ was not always so high

only recently has it skyrocketed - as Venezuelan society slow but surely unraveled.

[zeemike]

53. And it has not always had right wing Columbia to deal with.

But it has never been as high as Hindus or El Salvador has it.

The opposition's war of words: Chavez causes crime

Until now this ‘revolution' has been an electoral revolution, that is, with power struggles, and changes (of the law) mostly, funnelled through elections rather than battled out in open war. And whilst the opposition initially boycotted these elections it has learnt and is now participating and making some concrete gains through this participation, defeating the referendum in 2007, winning regional positions in the elections of 2008, and gaining votes in the amendment vote in February. Hence, one of the main fighting tools of the opposition, rather than bombs, chemicals, and guns, is now the media.

Being pro-capitalist, representative of the rich, and conservative, the organised opposition have no proposals about how to bring Venezuela forward and are more defined by their opposition to things (no to nationalisation, no to supposedly removing university independence and so on) and by empty slogans of ‘freedom'. Hence their ideological campaign against the government does not involve offering any alternatives but simply portraying the government as incapable, of causing chaos and the big one: insecurity.
http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4338

And that is what I see you doing...portraying the government as incapable, of causing chaos and the big one: insecurity.

[hack89]

56. How the hell is Colombia responsible for domestic VZ crime rates?

VZ can't control their borders? Not enough police?

[zeemike]

59. Well I learn as I go...

And the internet is a great reserch tool...

Rural Deaths in Venezuela Politically Motivated, Linked to Paramilitaries, Rights Group Says
The alleged murder of a rural worker in Lara state is the latest in a series of killings allegedly linked to paramilitaries in the far north of the Andes, according to a local human rights group.

Former Colombian Senator Accuses Henrique Capriles of Paramilitary Ties
Colombian ex-senator and peace activist Piedad Cordoba accused Venezuelan presidential candidate Henrique Capriles of receiving paramilitary support.

Venezuelan People’s Militia Occupies Estate Once Used by Colombian Paramilitaries
An Aporrea TVi exclusive this month interviewed members of the Bolivarian militia who have occupied and begun community projects on the Daktari estate, El Hatillo, which was once used to train Colombian paramilitaries as part of a plan to assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

Venezuela Opens Investigation of Assassination Plot Following Key Testimonies
The Venezuelan Attorney General's Office formally opened an investigation into an alleged assassination plot against President Hugo Chavez, following recently publicized declarations by a former paramilitary hitman and a former Colombian intelligence official.

Al Jazeera Interview: Hitman Says was Offered $25 Million to Kill Chavez
By Al Jazeera, Eva Golinger, Sep 26th 2009
In interview footage obtained by Al Jazeera a Colombian paramilitary confirmed that a "wealthy Venezuelan politician" named Manuel Rosales, offered him $25 million to assassinate President Chávez by any means.
http://venezuelanalysis.com/tag/paramilitaries

[hack89]

60. The issue is murder and kidnapping in the cities

Including the capital city. Not narco violence on the borders.

[zeemike]

61. So they don't count the murders in the countryside in the data?

And there are not right wingers in the cities?

Like I say, I am lerning...and what I have learned so far is that the right wing down there is not much different than the right wing here...they always blame it on the government when the government is democratically elected....and always praise them when it is not, and always support the rich and powerful over the poor.

[hack89]

62. No - there are lots of common criminals

There have always been lots of common criminals. VZ has always been a violent country.

Why do you think the crime only being done by right wingers.

[Bacchus4.0]

49. I do not frequent right wing sites so I will defer to your knowledge on that

I assume you mean Honduras but its not quite as high as 2x but it is highest homicide rate in the hemisphere with Ven being #2, and I believe El Salvador is actually 3rd. You can check that if you like.

I definitely don't want a military dictatorship in Ven. I think there are much better examples to point to like Peru and Brazil when it comes to fighting poverty while improving the economy without the state control and repression, and violence. Both have leftist presidents and are advancing socioeconomically. Both have good relations with the US, particularly Peru, so there is no incompatibility with aligning with the US and in country progress.

I do not need to explain to you a benefit to Maduro. I do not know why you are asking me that. If you want to continue supporting Maduro despite what is happening in Venezuela over the past several years, its your decision. I am not going to refrain from posting stories and pictures that reflect actualities. Maduro and the chavistas want to retain power plain and simple. The frustration of the people shown through these protests is quite inconvenient for the government I would say. Perhaps the government might change course and make some effort towards good government and management of the economy. That would be a benefit.

[zeemike]

58. Well I did check that...that is why I said it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Hondurs...91.6....El Salvador 69.2 ...Venezuela 45.1

But what do you expect them to get if the democratically elected government is overthrown?...an other Democratic governemnt?...like the last time they tried it in 2002?...and throughout the history of Latin America?
You make the case for the Tea Party...that if they don't like the dually elected president they can just force him out of office and appoint one they do like... that is not democracy at all.

And yes you do have to explain it...no prosecutor would take a case to trial with out having an explanation of how the accused benefited from it...because the jury would not believe how someone benefited by shooting thyself in the foot unless there was an insurance scam or something.

But yes I do have knowledge of how right wingers work...I have been on the innertubs for a very long time and have dealt with them before.

[El_Johns]

75. La Nueva Televisora del Sur, C.A. is a public company which has some Latin American governments as i

sponsors. Its sponsors are the governments of Argentina 20%, Bolivia 5%, Cuba 19%, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Uruguay 10% and Venezuela 51%. The channel's news agenda is dictated by its Board of Directors with the aid of an advisory council, which is formed by many international and regional leftist intellectuals, including Nobel Peace Prize winner Adolfo Pérez Esquivel, poet Ernesto Cardenal, writers Eduardo Galeano, Tariq Ali, Saul Landau, editor-in-chief of Le Monde diplomatique and historian Ignacio Ramonet, Argentine film producer Tristán Bauer, free software pioneer Richard Stallman and US actor and activist Danny Glover. The network carries no commercial advertising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeleSUR

[joshcryer]

68. You appeared overzealous to dismiss the report.

[zeemike]

69. No more overzealous than some here are to convict Mudruo

and get the coup to sucede...just like they were the last time they tried it with Chavez.
But I am outnumbered here in this thread,,,it seems to be a magnet for the overzealous.

But yes I dismiss "reports" in favor of facts.,,you can find hundreds of "reports" at Fox News and other right wing sources right here in the US...are we not to dismiss them too?...And if we do are we being overzealous?

[joshcryer]

70. Maduro won't be resigning.

So I don't know what the problem is. A half dozen deaths a night from student protest is nothing, it'd just tick Venezuela back up to being the most lethal place in the world like it was a few years back. Of course, we won't call it political murder because that'd be taboo since chavismo can do no wrong, etc.

[zeemike]

72. I keep having to correct people on this.

And they just keep repeating the same crap as if I did not present the facts.

Honduras has twice the murders...and that is a country that had a coup to remove the elected presedent...and is now ruled by the same oligarchs that you want to impose on Venzuela....El Salvador has 50% more and was one of the most violent country until Honduras took it away from them.

Facts just don't seem to matter.

[joshcryer]

73. Venezuela is in top 5. It's irrelevant.

It wouldn't take much for it to be the leader again. All the national guard has to do is crack down hard. Venezuela could be the worlds leader again. Venezuela is certainly the leader on the continent.

But, please, don't worry, Maduro won't be resigning. The streets could be filled with student blood, he won't resign. It's all good, that homophobic anti-semitic bigot is going to do just fine.

[zeemike]

81. No accuracy is not irrelevant.

When you are talking about deposing a democratically elected president.

And please tell us when Venezuela was ever the leader in murder rate. that is simply not true...it is pure and simple propaganda that is not consistent with the facts.

But in your zeal to overturn democracy is South America the truth does not seem to matter or you actually believe the right wing propaganda and help spread it by statements like that.

But sense you are now adding the charges of homophobic and anti-semitic I might suggest that racism plays a part in the hatred of Chavez sense he. like Obama. is of mixed race...part AA...maybe that is the reason.
Pulling those emotional strings may bring DU to your side.

[chrisa]

89. Maduro is a joke and should resign.

Creating perpetual enemies is the mark of a Fascist. The "constantly under attack" bullshit was tried here in the US and, sadly, worked momentarily. How is this any different from the Bush Administration's constant hammering of "threat levels" into our heads?

Maduro blames EVERYTHING on outside influences. He can't take responsibility for anything wrong he does, because he's, of course, the Shepard of a new Utopia! Viva La Revolucion!

Maduro is definitely a fan of the fear card - a card no effective leader ever needs. It's a desperate invocation to keep what he perceives as his sheep in line. Venezuela doesn't need to sell out to foreign powers, but the desperate usage of boogie men here is obvious.

[zeemike]

92. Yep he is a Fascist alright

Chavez introduced a constitution with guaranteed rights for all those unwashed masses...that is what Fascism is all about...human rights for the unwashed masses...we all know that.
And anyone who supports him must also support Bush. (the implication is there)

And Maduro is just parranoid...just because it has happened regularly in their history does not mean it is happening now...and we know it is not happening now because the said so...course they always say so but this time it is true.

It is all so clear to me now that you have explained it.

[chrisa]

94. What Chavez has done is irrelevant - he isn't President anymore. Maduro is no Chavez.

And anyone who supports him must also support Bush. (the implication is there)

Both use similar tactics. They invoke fear as a means of political control.

And Maduro is just parranoid...just because it has happened regularly in their history does not mean it is happening now...and we know it is not happening now because the said so...course they always say so but this time it is true.

And yet he hasn't shown any proof. On the other side of the argument you presented, just because Maduro says something is true does not mean it is true.

Does it worry you that a leader would blame everything bad that happens in his country on a foreign power? That doesn't sound like scapegoating to you?

[zeemike]

95. So what is this "Chavestias" thing all about then?

And you say he has shown no proof...don't you mean that YOU have seen no proof?...and where would you see such proof if you refuse to accept the "government media" and only listen and read the opposition media?...

Well past is prologue for me...we have involved ourself in coups in Latin America for decades and now you want us to believe the state department and the CIA cleaned up it's act and now are squeaky clean?

But no it is not scapegoating it is paranoia...and just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you...and besides paranoia is a tool to manipulate people with, and often deliberately created to fuck with people with dirty tricks. And when you are always looking over your shoulder you are more likely to stumble over the block put in your path.

Say what you want but the oil companies want that damn oil, and you want to help them get it.

[chrisa]

96. I never referred to Maduro supporters as "Chavestias," and who has is irrelevant.

P1 - Reading Venezuela-approved government propaganda doesn't seem like a good source of information. In fact, it seems like the type of material one would avoid to form an opinion, as it is likely regurgitated from a paid mouthpiece.

P2 - No, I never said that. However, Maduro has yet to offer any proof. If you have any instances where Maduro has offered and successfully demonstrated proof of CIA involvement, please do educate me.

P3 - "Let's boost defense spending to combat the US threat" is paranoia. "All of the riots were caused by US provocateurs!" is scapegoating. One urges caution, while the other deflects blame. One proposes a solution to a problem, while the other creates a strawman enemy to blame.

P4 - Corporations by their nature seek to consume everything around them at any cost. It's laws that keep them at bay. As for a conspiracy against Maduro for oil, Maduro has yet to show any evidence. It wouldn't be surprising, given how corrupting oil companies can be towards our government, but without proof, his claims are just rhetoric.

[zeemike]

98. Scapegoating is a misused term...just so you know.

The scapegoat was one of two goats that was set free into the wilderness while the other one was killed for the sacrifice.

But Maduro expelled 3 US embassy people claiming they were using the visa outreach program to infiltrate the uneversities...have you looked into the evidence for that?...are you likely too?
No you won't...and he has reasons to believe that they did because the US had done the same thing before in his country and in other countries is Latin America...and we do eventually learn about it but only after the revolution is complete and a military dictatorship is installed.

And if the dictatorship is installed and we learn about our involvement in it you will say it is history and why bother with it...things have changed and we are not doing it now, just like every time before...it seems that once the goal is achieved the truth no longer matters.

And in most of the sources I have seen that support the counter revolution they use the term Chavestias...whether you have used it I cannot say.

[EX500rider]

103. "Say what you want but the oil companies want that damn oil, and you want to help them get it."

Just where do you think Venezuela sends most of their oil anyway?

To US refineries and then for sale in the US.

"But they don't want to pay for it!"

Uh-huh, and which countries currently give away their oil free to foreign companies?

[zeemike]

104. J t bought this thread was finished.

But you come back to repeat what has already been said?

But you can't be that naive to think that the one that controls the oil makes the money and decides who gets it...and we know it won't be Cuba or any other country that is on our shit list...control gives power.

[Judi Lynn]

105. Downright sad, isn't it? Someone needs a good hobby. n/t

[zeemike]

106. this may be their hobby...or occupation

Repeating the propaganda until it is accepted as fact.

[reddread]

90. you are not outnumbered (count the recs), just outspoken and thoughtful

they cant beat your reasoning. so dont let them beat you down. its their only hope.
it appears these topics and threads break into partisan divisions where primarily the conservative black op friendly voices participate in those they start with their sources,
and those with an honest background in history and geopolitics have their own discussions, where sunlight keeps the vampires and fascists away, by and large, quite often.
There is good cause to confront them on their own threads, and its good work you do.
dont think you are outnumbered.
look at the recs.
these operatives simply talk to themselves at length if unchallenged, and that is something history does not need.

[zeemike]

91. Well I am pretty hard to beat down because I am a stubborn old SOB

With a thick skin...

But this has been a learning experience for me as I have researched the things they say and find that it is for the most part bullshit...and I learned a lot about Venezuela as well as them.

And I know we are not in the minority, but they sure want to make you think we are and use all the tricks in their bag to intimidate.
And you are absolutely right about we need to challenge them...being unchallenged just emboldens them and makes them think intimidation works.

[chrisa]

93. "Conservative black op friendly" - Massive strawman

Nobody here is Conservative or supports black ops. Those labels are lazy.

Who's to say that both can't be true? - The US is fomenting dissent in Venezuela, and Maduro is a dictator-wannabe who is scare-mongering and murdering his own people? Not talking about you, but I reject the common premise here that either Maduro is a saint and the CIA is ruining his country, or that Maduro is 100% wrong and the US is full of little angels that only want to help (both are hyperbolic and strawmen, but I'm talking more about one-sided, biased thinking by both sides).

Why can't we take an objective look at what Maduro has done so far and judge him based on that? At the moment, he isn't painting a good picture of himself.

[reddread]

97. for future reference, I know its not much, but worth the price paid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_ops

[chrisa]

99. So, I take it you do not have a response, then?

[reddread]

100. only when we both speak the same language

you should really work on that Straw Man concept.

[chrisa]

101. This has what, exactly, to do with the thread?

Are you going to defend your points or not? I'm not going to exchange childish insults.

[Bacchus4.0]

16. she has died (Spanish language source)

http://www.notitarde.com/Valencia/Estado-de-la-joven-Genesis-Carmona-es-muy-delicado/2014/02/19/306552

[reddread]

18. viva la contrarrevolucion

suspended disbelief and forgotten history are the essential ingredients for these silly black op propandas.
who benefits?
who benefits?
shame on anyone who participates in this charade.

[penultimate]

26. I'm glad to hear she isn't really dead.

[reddread]

55. that cheap remark shows how much class (you lack) and concern you have for her death. n/t

[penultimate]

63. So it wasn't a charade invented to create propaganda material?

Last edited Thu Feb 20, 2014, 08:13 AM - Edit history (1)

[reddread]

65. you arent playing stupid?

i was clear enough.

[joshcryer]

71. "suspended disbelief"

It's pretty fucking clear what you meant.

[reddread]

76. thank you, of course it is

people using their brains instead of a script, history instead of hysteria are not about to discount the trajectory of US policy in South and Central America. PARTICULARLY in VZ in the 21st century.
Repeating the same lines of nonsense over and over, the usual suspects push implausible denials, while ignoring the obvious,
because the obvious and historical facts dont contribute to their story.
Fiction spinning agenda laden bullshit spewing propagandists.
The last freedom.

[joshcryer]

77. so we have to "suspend our disbelief" to believe that girl died

OK

[reddread]

80. sounds so familiar, where have I heard that before?

Wait, I know- the dogs next door!
Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark! Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark! Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark! Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark! Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark! Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark! Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark! Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark! Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark! Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark! Bark bark BARK bark BARK bark bark!

[Bacchus4.0]

27. National guards and cops assault priest west Venezuela

http://www.eluniversal.com/nacional-y-politica/140219/national-guards-and-cops-assault-priest-west-venezuela


Priest José Palmar was beaten with a blunt object by officers of the Zulia state police and the Bolivarian National Guard (GNB) as he tried to prevent an attack on students who were demonstrating at the Ombudsman's Office in Maracaibo, Zulia state, northwest Venezuela.

Opposition deputy William Barrientos and some other dissenting leaders and students helped him. He suffered severe injuries and was taken to a healthcare center.

[Bacchus4.0]

82. 2 more shot and killed by National Guard last night

http://www.maduradas.com/sin-piedad-en-video-asi-es-como-la-gnb-asesina-a-hombre-que-manifestaba-en-la-candelaria/

[chrisa]

83. Here's to hoping VZ kicks that Fascist-wannabe out of office.