Ukraine protests: Five dead in Kiev as EU talks begin

[dipsydoodle]

Source: BBC News

At least five people have been killed in renewed clashes between police and protesters in central Kiev after a truce agreed on Wednesday broke down.

Witnesses reported live rounds, petrol bombs and water cannon at the main protest site, Independence Square.

A meeting between EU foreign ministers and President Viktor Yanukovych is now under way, officials say, contradicting earlier reports that the ministers had flown out without seeing him.

The EU will discuss sanctions later.

The BBC's Kevin Bishop, in Kiev, saw five dead bodies in the reception area of the Hotel Ukraine, which all foreign media in the city are using as a base.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620

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Ukraine truce comes to a violent end amid Kiev clashes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26269221


Ukraine crisis: deadly clashes shatter truce – live updates

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2014/feb/20/ukraine-crisis-new-clashes-strain-truce-live-updates

[joshcryer]

1. So much for truce. A trilateral agreement is paramount.

Hopefully the EU can actually offer something enticing like Putin did (though Putin leveraged it from past behavior).

[dipsydoodle]

2. Sky News now reporting 15 dead today

http://news.sky.com/story/1214512/police-firing-live-rounds-at-kiev-protesters

[joshcryer]

3. That's what happens when RT falsely reports they're heavily armed.

In an article showing at least one person with a goddamn pellet rifle.

[jamzrockz]

5. Pellet Rifle that

can pierce through police bullet proof armor and kill them. Some of the protestors do indeed have guns, I cannot imagine how that is hard to believe

[another_liberal]

8. Some people on these boards . . .

It seems clear that some people on these boards will never accept that violent crimes have been committed by the more radical faction of protesters. They can not even entertain the notion that not everyone in Maidan Square is a freedom-loving hero like the, "Embattled farmers of Lexington and Concord."

Rather disappointing at this point in the events to see that mind set still so common.

[pampango]

10. If there are posts denying that any protesters have committed violent crimes, I have not seen them.

If there are posts denying that security forces have not used excessive violence on protesters, I have missed those too.

Most reports I see from Kiev and most posts here on DU acknowledge that there is a "radical faction of protesters". Early on the majority of peaceful protesters had success controlling the more radical elements. The longer this has gone on and when people started to die in large numbers when security forces attempted to clear the square, that control has weakened.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

The protests in Kiev were largely peaceful for months. Violent factions among peaceful protesters give the government elite the excuse they need to use force. Sometimes they are anarchists or other disturbed people. Sometimes they are government plants. As long as their police and troops remain loyal, the government will win if becomes a matter of firepower from the respective sides.

[another_liberal]

12. Nice saying, however . . .

Who are the ones "making peaceful revolution impossible," that is the question you should be asking yourself. Could they possibly be the radicals of "Right Sector" who have for weeks been hurling firebombs and beating police with lead pipes (let alone now firing at them with live ammunition)? Hmmmm?

[pampango]

13. I have asked myself that question. Those suffering the vast majority of deaths and injuries

was my best clue. The side with the most firepower often has the least incentive for things to remain peaceful.

[another_liberal]

14. Just look at the facts, as we have the ability to know them.

Last edited Thu Feb 20, 2014, 02:16 PM - Edit history (1)

If you do that, without bias or emotion, you will have to conclude that this latest fighting is almost certainly the work of Right Sector and its radical leaders.

[pampango]

15. Yanukovych is under pressure from Moscow to crack down hard. He replaced his army chief with

a hard-liner who is not reluctant to use the army against protesters. There are videos of snipers firing into the protesters from rooftops around the square.

If you look at those facts, you have to conclude that the latest fighting is almost certainly the work of hard-liners in the government wanting to use their firepower advantage to end these protests once and for all.

[another_liberal]

17. Just because we don't have videos of it happening . . .

That does not prove the "Right Sector" snipers didn't start firing first.

Are you really saying you believe it's more likely the new fighting was started by riot police, who had been ordered to uphold the truce, rather than the "Right Sector" radicals who had been ordered to continue with violent attacks? If so, I'm afraid you have left reason and logic far behind in your effort to defend what can no longer be defended.

[pampango]

18. "I'm afraid you have left reason and logic far behind in your effort to defend what can no longer be

defended."

Now that is just a bit ironic.

Dozens of protesters were killed yesterday and an even larger number (I have heard from 60 to 100 so far) have been killed today, many of them shot by snipers.

Before the 'truce' was declared, Yanukovych had already canned his head of his army because he was unwilling to use the army to fight protesters. (He, quaintly perhaps, thought the army's role was to protect the country from foreign military actions not to support a particular administration.) He appointed a new army head who is willing to follow orders. Now there are reports (and at least one video) of paratroopers on their way to Kiev. (There are also reports and videos of troop trains bound for Kiev that have been blocked by civilians.) That does not sound like a president that has decided to resolve this thing peacefully. If I were a protester there I would be certainly been suspicious of any 'truce' declared by Yanukovych.

Neither of us knows who broke the truce, but the side with a massive firepower advantage (and apparently a willingness to use it) has a bit more incentive to do so. One would have to leave reason and logic far behind to prefer to believe that the protesters - after surviving an all-night attack from security forces with many deaths - would choose to then break a 'truce'.

[another_liberal]

19. Despite the admitedly corrupt nature of Yanukovich's government . . .

He has the right and responsibility to defend his nation's Capital from the kind of violence taking place there now. As a matter of fact, no Western government would have shown nearly as much restraint and passivity as Ukraine's President has already shown. Eventually this level of lawlessness must be confronted.

As to your personal stance, tell me: Would you champion the right of Tea Party protesters to set up barricades in downtown Washington D.C.? Would you complain if the D. C. police tried to stop Tea Party rioters from seizing government buildings and setting them on fire? Would you object if the D. C. police fired back at Tea Party snipers who were shooting policemen while they were defending the White House?

Don't just dodge the question. Would you have the same supportive reaction you are expressing in regard to the violent and deadly protests raging in Kiev if the Tea Party had done half of that violence and destruction in Washington?

[pampango]

21. If we are finished discussing Ukraine, do you really think that your hypothetical excuses

Yanukovych's actions in Kiev?

Would you champion the right of Tea Party protesters to set up barricades in downtown Washington D.C.? Would you complain if the D. C. police tried to stop Tea Party rioters from seizing government buildings and setting them on fire? Would you object if the D. C. police fired back at Tea Party snipers who were shooting policemen while they were defending the White House?

No. No. No.

But do you really think that the only people killed by security forces in Kiev are "snipers who were shooting policemen"? Many medics, journalists and unarmed people have been killed by snipers and other security forces. Would I object if DC snipers killing people like that? YES! Wouldn't you?

Any time police or security forces fire indiscriminately into crowds that include young, old, men, women, some armed and many unarmed people, I have a problem with that. And that would include a crowd of tea party idiots as well.

There I did not dodge the question. Are you going to defend the actions of security forces who act like this whether it is in Kiev or Washington? How about the paratroopers when they get there? I doubt they are trained to use much discretion when it comes to a firefight.

[another_liberal]

24. The responsibility for those hurt and kiilled after the truce was broken . . .

I don't feel any need to defend the Ukrainian security forces' actions today. Any violence toward innocent protesters is a crime, but the responsibility for those hurt and kiilled after the latest truce was broken clearly lies with those who broke the truce. See Post #20 on this same string.

[pampango]

25. "I don't feel any need to defend the Ukrainian security forces' actions today."

"Any violence toward innocent protesters" is the responsibility of "those who broke the truce".

And not responsibility of the sniper that shoots a medic or other unarmed person? So pretty much a carte blanche for the security forces to shoot anyone they wish after a small faction of protesters broke the truce. At least you are honest about where you stand on the issue of state-sanctioned violence against protesters and you are not denying that "innocent protesters" were shot by government snipers.

I hope you are never in charge of the security forces at any demonstration I am at in the future. One misstep by a small faction of that protest and I am fair game. If a sniper shoots me, it is not his fault.

[Comrade Grumpy]

20. The Guardian says protesters, not "hard-liners in the government" started things today.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2014/feb/20/ukraine-crisis-new-clashes-strain-truce-live-updates

The violence started shortly before 9am when protesters armed with axes, knives, truncheons and corrugated iron shields advanced on to a bridge in the centre of the Ukranian capital and drove riot police back from Independence Square.

Within an hour, the area surrounding the Ukrania hotel, which had been under the control of riot police, fell to the protesters. The riot police lines dissolved as they were bussed away to be replaced by the feared “Berkut” special forces. Kiev soon became a battleground.

[pampango]

22. Thanks for the information, Comrade Grumpy. n/t

[another_liberal]

23. Thank you.

A little truth breaks through the fog of disinformation.

[joshcryer]

27. The cold hard truth that there is no leadership.

Good luck putting that back in its Pandora's box.

[joshcryer]

26. I did not deny some were armed.

But heavily armed? The RT article was a lie. On it they showed a kid with a pellet gun.

[another_liberal]

28. Correction . . .

You "assume" it was a pellet gun. To be fair, we can't know for certain what that weapon was.

[joshcryer]

29. No, I read a debunking.

From firearms experts, they even found the manufacturer. Just google it.

If the protesters were heavily armed there would be far more police deaths and the military would be called in.

[freshwest]

4. When it says ' The EU will discuss sanctions later,' by what authority?

Ukraine hasn't signed on as part of the EU, has it?

They can deny them goods or capital, but can't change the Ukrainian govermment. If they deny them what they need, the people will be the ones doing without and it will cause more violence.

Could be their intent, turning the screws?

As another poster wrote, the situation there is not easily defined, other than violent, deadly and causing moe pain.

[pampango]

6. I have read about the possility of travel sanctions targeted at government and military officials.

I would think that economic sanctions ("They can deny them goods or capital, but can't change the Ukrainian govermment.&quot would be counterproductive since it would hurt regular people more than the elite and it would drive Ukraine more quickly into the Russian sphere. (The EU could not change Ukraine's government even it were in the EU.)

If the EU really wants to influence events in Ukraine using economic/financial pressure they would match the financial aid offered by Russia.

To impose sanctions, the permission of the target country is not necessary. Sanctions imposed on South Africa were done without the permission of the SA government.

[another_liberal]

7. "Ukraine truce fails, rioters renew offensive in Kiev, death toll rises to 35."

That is what RT News is reporting anyway. Here a link to their latest (warning, includes some graphic video):

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-maidan-rioters-offensive-880/

I'm sure nearly everyone in the West will just blame this on the authorities, as they have every outrage that has happened so far. The police forces of Western countries, of course, would just stand aside as their Capital City is burned down by out-of-control protesters hurling firebombs. Am I right?

[pampango]

9. Other sources say that the rioters renewed their offensive when snipers shot protesters.

"The Guardian’s Ian Traynor in Kiev witnessed four police snipers, two of whom fired live rounds at protesters.

“I saw marksmen firing from automatic weapons with telescopic sights,” Ian said in a telephone update. He also reported seeing the bodies of 12 named protesters who had been bought to a makeshift morgue in the lobby of his hotel. All had been shot, according to medics.

The guardian alone can confirm 21 dead, but it is likely to be much higher. I counted 12 corpses in the makeshift morgue, but a doctor said there were 15 here. My colleague Harriet Salem counted nine bodies in a different part of town.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2014/feb/20/ukraine-crisis-new-clashes-strain-truce-live-updates

Reports from Moscow are that Russia is fed up with Yanukovych being a 'doormat' when "out-of-control protesters" are violent. This may be related to Ukraine's army chief getting sacked because he was hesitant to commit to using the army against protesters.

Russian prime minister Dmitry Medvedev said on Thursday that President Yanukovych should not be a “doormat”, in what seemed the latest words from Moscow urging the Ukrainian authorities to crack down.

“We need partners who are in good shape and for the authorities that work in Ukraine to be legitimate and effective, so that people don’t wipe their feet on them like a doormat,” said Medvedev in televised remarks.

[another_liberal]

11. Whoever fired first did not want to see the new truce hold.

We should look for motive, and that would suggest the hardline protest group "Right Sector" which publicly rejected the truce and urged its followers to continue attacks on the riot police. I admit that it is impossible to know for sure.

Perhaps it's time to remember the old saying that, "Truth is the first casualty in war." This clearly is now war.

[dipsydoodle]

16. Now 33 dead and protesters have taken 67 police officers hostage

At least 33 people have reportedly been killed after police fired live rounds at protesters near Independence Square in Kiev.

Meanwhile protesters have taken 67 police officers prisoner, according to the interior ministry.

Hotel lobbies have been turned into makeshift hospitals, where some of the injured are given emergency treatment.

http://news.sky.com/story/1214512/kiev-33-killed-as-ukraine-truce-crumbles