Ukraine: Protesters capture 67 police in Kiev

[bemildred]

Source: AP

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Fearing that a call for a truce was a ruse, protesters tossed firebombs and advanced upon police lines Thursday in Ukraine's embattled capital. Government snipers shot back and the almost-medieval melee that ensued left at least 33 people dead.

Video footage on Ukrainian television showed shocking scenes Thursday of protesters being cut down by gunfire, lying on the pavement as comrades rushed to their aid. Trying to protect themselves with shields, teams of protesters carried bodies away on sheets of plastic or on planks of wood.

Protesters were also seen leading policemen with hands held high around the sprawling protest camp in central Kiev — Ukraine's Interior ministry says 67 police were captured in all. They are being held in Kiev's occupied city hall, an opposition lawmaker said.

An AP cameraman saw snipers shooting at protesters in Kiev and video footage showed that at least one sniper wearing a Ukraine riot police uniform.

Read more: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2014-02-20/ukraine-standoff-continues-amid-shaky-truce

[The Magistrate]

1. One Does Like To See Signs Of Equality In A Scrap, Sir....

[bemildred]

4. Yes Sir.

I noticed a day or two ago that the protesters seem to give a good account of themselves in a fight.

A most unfortunate week for Putin, I'd say too.

It's very interesting, I hesitate to comment, but the historical echoes for an old pinko like me are there.

And it is getting a bit harder to keep up with all the crises at the same time.

[The Magistrate]

6. It is A Hard One To Judge, Sir

It seems to be at bottom a nationalist outbreak, and while there are certainly some ugly elements under the surface of Ukrainian nationalism, resentment and even hatred of Russia, and a profound disinclination to be set within Russia's sphere again, are certainly understandable.

[bemildred]

7. Yep. Several chunks speaking of breaking off as we speak.

Fundamentally internal I think, but with lots of crude external meddling. I think it's going to break up. It's going to be rather awkward for Russia to invade to "restore order". There are already some self-appointed independent chunks. Sometimes it's not the external enemy that does you in, it's your own inability to govern well, or to govern at all.

[The Magistrate]

8. Population Was So Badly Shuffled About In The Region, Sir

The boundaries on a map are not a close match for the ethnic reality, and that is always a recipe for trouble.

[bemildred]

9. Yes.

Take that and a bit of divide-and-rule politics, and off we go. How many places right now is that the root of it?

Ukraine shares with the Middle East being something of an historical crossroads, always people passing through. Nice and flat.

It is much too early and I am much too ignorant about Ukraine to pontificate, and yet it's fascinating. One thinks of the Paris Commune. Has anyone commented yet on the way the Internet has facilitated the rise of occupation as an alternative political strategy? Beggining with Tienanmen. You just can't expect to do your dirty work in the dark now. There will be video.

[amandabeech]

26. It seems that areas that saw the worst fighting in WWII are having problems.

The Japanese and the Chinese are at it again. Now southeastern Europe.

What I find interesting is the seeming attempts by both the Chinese and the Yukanovych (sp) faction in Ukraine to use WWII terms to defend themselves. I'm sure you both are well aware of current reports, but there was an OpEd in the Telegraph (of all places) a few weeks ago in which the Chinese ambassador to the UK urged the UK to join with China once again against the Japanese as they did in WWII.

Of course, some of the problems in WWII had much, much older origins.

You just wait because a minute the Bosnians and the Serbs will go after each other in Sarajevo. Oh, wait. They just did.

I wasn't around during the previous two 20th century general wars. I hope that I won't be around for another series in the 21st.

[bemildred]

28. Yes.

Last edited Thu Feb 20, 2014, 05:57 PM - Edit history (1)

I did see that OpEd.

Your points seem well stated to me.

The 20th Century was not kind to empires and I expect the 21st to be much worse.

The monopoly on force which governments have always relied on to maintain themselves is no longer to be had, and mere superiority of force won't do the job, as was made evident repeatedly in the 20th century. Even in the 19th, when generally the prospective "subjects" were still "backward", there were plenty of imperial debacles.

And there are new people coming up who think globally and connectedly, and they are going to drive the nationalists nuts too. Are now, actually.

For a couple decades now, one of my main motivations for staying alive and healthy was just to watch this go down. It is the hinge of history, and we are there.

[amandabeech]

52. My mother was a young woman during WWII.

I just got back from a very long visit with her

Several times I tried to talk to her about what it was like to be on the home front then. She talked about leaving her teaching job and going to work in a munitions factory, but she became very upset when she started talking about all the young men she knew who did not come home. Her brother was very nearly one of them. He was a radioman and tailgunner in a bomber operating out of the Phillipines that bombed Japanese positions in China. Only at the end of his life would he talk about it at all.

Unfortunately, my experience with young people is not as positive as yours. What I see are a bunch of people who really know next to nothing about history or geography who can be manipulated by just about anyone with a good story line, much like a lot of young people in the past, despite the greater availability of connections with others around the globe.

I hope that your experience is more typical than mine.

[bemildred]

53. My Dad had his leg half-blown off at Vimy Ridge in WWI.

He never did talk about it much, other than to discuss the guy next to him at the time, who was just gone, and to call us clumsy when he tripped over us. He liked to talk about his friends and anything but combat. (He lived to 92, I was born when he was 53.)

[amandabeech]

56. And I thought generations on my father's side of the family were long.

My Dad was 43 when I was born. He was a WWII vet. Navy. He came closest to combat when he was aboard an escort carrier hunting Nazi subs in the Caribbean. He was transferred off the carrier when he developed tonsillitis. The carrier was transferred to the Pacific after the sub threat waned, and went down in Leyte Gulf. My Dad did not return to the ship following his tonsillectomy, but went back to his rating--aviation metalsmith--and spent the rest of the war patching up beat-up airplanes. At the end of the war, he was in charge of a couple of shops working on experimental designs. He was asked to stay in, but he was homesick for the Midwest and went home. He later regretted that decision. A small town in the Midwest can be mighty boring for someone who liked Chicago and Philadelphia.

[bemildred]

58. My youngest was born when I was 41. I can't imagine being 53 with an infant to raise.

But he was vigorous into his 80s, raising hell in Victoria BC when the government there wanted to privatize the home he was in. I have the clippings still. Being 68 myself now, I find that prospect agreeable, plenty of time yet ...

Your Dad sounds like a corker. I knew a lot of WWII vets when I as young. They were a surly lot, but handy to have around. Smoked like chimneys, drank like fish, and didn't take shit from anybody. And they knew how to do stuff, like welding.

And yeah, once you've been to the big city, it's never the same. My 3rd comes from a small city, and he wants to move to Korea now, he went for a year to teach, and now it's off to see the world.

I come from the big city, so I like the country fine.

[amandabeech]

60. Your Dad sounds like the corker!

My Dad smoked that pipe, but he wasn't much into the booze. He and my two WWII uncles could do all kinds of stuff and weren't afraid of getting their hands dirty.

Yeah, the WWII guys were something. The War and the Depression.

I grew up in the country and live in the city (supposedly). When I finally retire, I want to be able to spend time in both, particularly in my home area on the eastern side of Lake Michigan. It's like cabin country in Ontario, I think.

[bemildred]

63. That is nice country, up there. nt

[amandabeech]

64. But winters in the upper Great Lakes areas are cold and snowy.

Many people in my area of Michigan head to warmer climes in the winter, at least for January and February.

[bemildred]

65. Yes, you have to like snow.

I have a niece lives up in the thumb (but she is studying in New Orleans at the moment ). I've been up there in the Summer and found it quite nice, very walkable for one thing, and with those big lakes to play in, and uncrowded.

[amandabeech]

66. Yes, that about sums it up.

I'm from the western side of the lower peninsula, and Lake Michigan is wonderful.

The Lake Michigan beaches generally are quite wide and have very fine sand.

Many folks like the Sleeping Bear National Lakeshore near Traverse City.

I myself have my small local favorites that are uncrowded generally.

[bemildred]

68. And modestly priced too. With plenty of firewood, and deer if you like to hunt.

Good land for a garden, plenty of water, you can easily run a few chickens or rabbits, and a pretty good Farmer's Market there in Port Sanilac ...

[amandabeech]

78. All very, very nice.

It's obvious that you realize that Michigan is much more than just the "bombed-out" portions of Detroit.

Spread the word! Or, maybe don't spread it too much or it will end up far too crowded.

[amandabeech]

57. Meant to reply to you, but replied to myself.

See my post immediately below.

[DFW]

69. My father-in-law suffered a similar injury at Stalingrad.

Last edited Sun Feb 23, 2014, 12:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Half frozen when another unit spotted him and noted he was still alive, he was the only one of his unit to survive. A farmer, drafted at age 17, he was in a unit of city boys who weren't used to the cold. They all froze to death.

Like your father, he NEVER talked about his combat experiences. In his final delirium, he was calling out to long-dead members of his unit to watch out for exploding artillery shells, one of which had already taken one of his legs off. He returned to his village, a cripple at age 18.

Seventeen-year-old boys should not be made to go through this, and his most fervent wish was that all his grandchildren be girls so they wouldn't have to join the military (he got his wish).

[bemildred]

70. Thank you for sharing. I agree.

My Dad left Glasgow at 16, moved to Canada. Joined the Canadian Expeditionary Force, to be with his buddies. I know just what you mean.

They wanted to take his leg off, but he refused. He had a limp, was a bachelor all his life, shy I think, and felt a cripple too. Then at age 52 married my mother, a widow with three children. Then they had three more. I'm the oldest of the second three.

And Stalingrad. It's not easy to come up with something worse than Vimy Ridge, but you did.

[DFW]

72. My father-in-law absolutely refused to talk about his combat experience

He just clammed up whenever the subject was raised. I can't imagine what he went through at Stalingrad, and he didn't want to be reminded of it either. He was already no fan of the government that sent him there, and less so afterward.

The artillery shell took off his leg below the knee, and gangrene set in, forcing surgeons at field hospitals to take bits off until they cut above the line of infection. He wore a prosthesis so he could walk and, most important, ride a bicycle. He learned to drive a car, but never got one because his doctors told him the inactivity would lead to arterial clogging that would kill him.

[bemildred]

73. Yep. Got infections, lost all his teeth. Long convalescence. But he pulled through.

Tough people, back then. He wore special shoes all his life, and dentures, but never would use a cane to walk.

[DFW]

74. He came back alive

My mother in law, by far the youngest in her family, lost three brothers in that war, one just 5 km from her house as the war was ending.

[bemildred]

75. Yes. I know.

I know who kicked Hitler's ass, and have at least some idea of the cost of that victory. I don't claim to understand it.

And I know war is much easier to contemplate on the other side of the ocean.

It is kind of stunning to me that, after WWI, anybody would think it was a good idea to do it again in WWII, but they did.

In fact a lot of people still do.

[DFW]

76. Considering what happened to my wife's family

I think they would have preferred someone kick Hitler's ass before he got a chance to start a war.

[bemildred]

77. A much better idea. nt

[amandabeech]

79. I thank your father for his service, wherever his soul resides.

He and his fellows saved the generation of lives that would have died in Europe and elsewhere had Hitler managed to gain control of a source of oil.

[DFW]

81. Father-in-law, and he wouldn't want you to. He was not proud of what he had been sent to do.

He was a pacifist, and served against his will, invading Russia, against whom he had nothing, on a useless mission.

Even decades later, whenever an image of Hitler was shown on television, his face grew stony and his jaw trembled. Being drafted at age 17 by Hitler to be cannon fodder for Hitler's insane military adventures was no honor in his eyes, and nor was having to live the rest of his life starting at age 18 as a cripple. He loved his life on the farm ,and would have been perfectly happy to live out the rest of his life there, something he could no longer do.

[amandabeech]

82. I'm sorry. I think that I totally misread your posts. Please accept my apology. n/t

[DFW]

83. Not a problem

You might not have understood for whom he was made to serve. There was no such thing as a conscientious objector in Germany in 1942. You did what they told you or you were shot.

[bemildred]

84. My sister-in-law was born in Germany during the war.

My brother was US Air Force over there in Germany, also served in Vietnam. They all speak pretty good German. (Not me though.)

Napoleon tried it too, conquering Russia, and that guy Yanukovich would conquer the world too I think, if he had had the means. "Everybody wants to rule the world." Once they start working on accumulation and self-aggrandizement as their purpose in life, you have to keep an eye on them.

But anyway, it doesn't appear at the moment that anybody wants to repeat that experiment, so lets just work on keeping it that way.

[DFW]

85. We are, anyway.

My wife and I raised our two kids to be bi-lingual and bi-cultural. I speak German with my wife, but English with our children who can switch effortlessly back and forth in mid-sentence, depending whom they are speaking to.

Our younger daughter spent time with the UN war crimes tribunal in Sierra Leone, and there are few things that reinforce pacifist sentiments more effectively than hearing in detail what happens when a country forces its children to go to war.

Of course, having two grandfathers who fought on opposite sides of a war, and later became friends, REALLY helps you be against the whole idea of war.

[amandabeech]

86. You summed up my confusion.

As to shooting conscience objectors, it seems that neither Hitler nor Stalin had any aversion.

[DFW]

87. Neither Hitler nor Stalin acknowledged the notion that there could be such a thing

My father wasn't drafted until a year later. He wasn't thrilled about it either, and the ship he was on taking him from England to France got torpedoes and sank, but he made it off alive, and, unlike my father-in-law, never saw heavy combat. His biggest excitement, he said, was being on radio duty at Patton's camp the night Patton died in the motorcycle accident.

What my dad went through was like a day at Disneyland compared to what my wife's dad went through. And when he came home, there was a home to come to.

[Fred Sanders]

2. Protestors tossed firebombs, like the deadly barrage that engulfed a police vehicle two days ago

killing 4 men, and they advanced on police lines, so everyone agree that the protesters caused the violence that now ensues?

[DetlefK]

3. The police torturing arrested protesters doesn't count?

[bemildred]

5. We agree that they seem to be pretty good at it too. nt

[another_liberal]

13. Cheering on people like the ultra-conservative "Right Sector" faction?

I would be ashamed. (sigh)

[bemildred]

20. Projecting like mad are you?

You should be ashamed.

[another_liberal]

21. Such a weak attempt . . .

I understand you feel a need to say something in your own defense, but an explanation of why you are supporting the actions of people like the violent, religiously conservative, right wing radicals in Ukraine's "Right Sector" faction would have been more to the point than such a weak attempt at attacking me.

[bemildred]

23. Yawn. nt

[another_liberal]

12. Some people will never believe the protesters are responsible for any of the violence in Ukraine.

It is a kind of faith-based belief system that can imagine ultra-violent, right wing hooligans are really just peaceful individuals resisting the evil, Stalinist forces of Yanukovich and Putin. We've recently seen different varieties of the same delusional perception in regard to Egypt and Venezuela.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

31. Calling them protesters by this point is quite a stretch.

I wonder if the Golden Dawn in Greece would get the same level of support and adoration.

[another_liberal]

34. No, I doubt it.

After all, our mega-bankers have already usurped the government in Greece. They still need thugs and murderers to smooth the transition to complete control in Ukraine.

[countryjake]

67. If cops shot at me with kalashnikovs, I might toss something back at them, too...

Those riot police have had snipers stationed on rooftops, shooting protesters in the head with scopes from building windows, throughout this whole thing.

Think a government murdering citizens in the streets may be what caused the violence?

[heaven05]

10. snipers in this case?

cowards.

[christx30]

80. I saw an image that said it was

a Ukrainian sniper being forced to kneel at a memorial to the people killed by he and his team.


http://imgur.com/gallery/RIfCRyT

[Xolodno]

11. I believe I hear the fat lady singing....

...before it was just finger pointing at who broke the truce and who was going to escalate the violence with western governments telling the current government to back off, to let the protestors get the upper hand.

When you take hostages....that's whole new ball game. And with parts of western Ukraine in open revolt. I suspect the military will intervene with heavy backing from Moscow as soon as the lights go out in Sochi.

Yanukovych is smiling. He hardly can be blamed now if he uses brute force.

To put this in perspective, if a bunch of Teabaggers or Occupy protested in Washington DC and got rowdy and then began fighting with police...and later started taking over government buildings and then took hostage of DC police. The Military would be on its way.

[1000words]

15. To compare the Ukraine with U.S. is absurd

The situation is far more complex.

[Xolodno]

16. Technically...

...every nation's political situation is complex. But that wasn't the point to compare internal situation of the US with Ukraine....but rather, how the escalation of violence will be perceived, in the court of global public opinion....right or wrong. Like it or not, most in the world are not completely familiar with Ukraine's internal situation.

When governments ratchet up the violence they appear to be the oppressors and lose on the propaganda war.

When protestors ratchet up the violence, the view turns against them.

Its a game of "who is the victim".

For example, Israel for some time was able to carry out its actions against the Palestinians with Europe and the American populace in support. As the Palestinians employed tactics of hostage taking, suicide bombing, etc. who had the financial backing or the Arab world. Granted it was much more complicated than that...but, that's what people on the outside saw.

Now that the Palestinians have dialed back from such tactics and was fully able to paint Hamas as the psycho relative in the family. Israeli troops taking on civilians throwing rocks has turned the opinion against them...particularly when the Palestinian response is for a boycott.

Back to the Ukraine...the fact that you have western media outlets stating the protestors took "hostages"...should tell you something. Coupled with reports of western Ukraine areas in open revolt...the game is up...

[another_liberal]

17. You didn't answer Xlodno's question . . .

Would you champion the right of Tea Party protesters to set up barricades in downtown Washington D.C.? Would you complain if the D. C. police tried to stop Tea Party rioters from seizing government buildings and setting them on fire? Would you object if the D. C. police fired back at Tea Party snipers who were shooting policemen while they were defending the White House?

Don't just dodge the question. Would you have the same reaction you are expressing in regard to the violent and deadly protests raging in Kiev?

[1000words]

18. It is useless to address hypotheticals

I haven't expressed anything regarding the situation, aside from my opinion that the comparison is not applicable.

[another_liberal]

19. That, my friend, is what I would call . . .

Dodging the question. After all, the Tea Party would love to have your support, and they certainly hate President Obama just as much as the Maidan protesters hate Yanukovich. Ask a few, I bet they'll be happy to enumerate dozens of reasons for staging similar protests in our Capital City.

Do you really have no response? I'm also genuinely curious to know what you think are the differences which disqualify the question?

[1000words]

39. Just not biting, that's all.

Furthermore, not one question was asked of me from the poster I was engaging.

[another_liberal]

41. A somewhat better dodge . . .

But still a dodge nonetheless.

[1000words]

43. I always liked Chargers best

[another_liberal]

46. I will take that as . . .

A complete and total capitulation of your position, y'all.

[jamzrockz]

54. I know, I know

Their top 3 complaints will be

The tyranny of Obamacare
federal government coming for their guns
Forcing gay marriage on them.

That my friend is enough reason to start a revolution. The democratically elected government is not longer legitimate, take to the streets, occupy govt building and douse policemen with petrol and set em on fire.

That will elicit so much support from the protestor loving crowd around here.

[another_liberal]

62. Welcome to DU, jamzrockz!

I can't help but agree with your list of potential complaints. The Right Wing in this country would be more than ready to lay siege to Washington DC, except that they know our government would smash them like a bug before they even got their first barricade built.

It's one thing to encourage protesters in Ukraine or Venezuela, where our political and economic interests can be advanced by such violence, but in the streets of an American city? You can forget it!

[SolutionisSolidarity]

51. Pathetic response. You either believe arson is free speech or you don't.

There's nothing hypothetical about that.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

29. This right here is the problem.

No matter how hard you try, it's impossible to draw analogies in foreign disputes through the lens of domestic disputes.

The opposition to the Yanokovych government in the Ukrainian is much, much larger than the US Tea Party could ever dream to be. And the issues at hand are much, much more serious and grave.

You can't make any contemporary US counterpart to what's going on in Ukraine.

[another_liberal]

32. If the logic applies there, why doesn't apply here?

Would you be alright with it if a Tea Party group, however small, set up barricades in downtown D. C. and started setting fire to buildings there? Would you insist the D. C. police stand aside while the Capitol and the White House were stormed by just a few thousand Tea Party radicals? The same principle applies in both cases. You can't support it in the Ukraine because there are a hundred thousand protesters, and then be against it here just because the number of protesters is only five or ten thousand.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

35. If they were protesting over the current situation in this country...

....or bringing up some bogus non-story like Benghazi or the IRS, there'd be no way anyone would stand for that.

If we were dealing with an actual grave national crisis, like the one facing Ukraine, then.....I don't know. I really don't. We haven't seen anything like that in this country for 150 years.

[another_liberal]

38. If they have a somewhat valid complaint, then it's OK . . .

What you seem to be saying is that: If they have a somewhat valid complaint, then it's OK for a minority group to violently overthrow a democratically elected government? Right?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

40. No.

The tea party is a small minority group, and our government is democratic elected (absent a few voting rights abuses here and there).

The protesters in Ukraine represent a plurality, if not a majority of the views of Ukrainians. And the Ukrainian government under Yanokovych has devolved to the point where you can't call it democratic anymore.

You just can't compare the two. I don't know why you are trying to force an analogy that clearly doesn't work and exists in hypothetical only.

[another_liberal]

42. Last data concerning Ukrainian polling reported less than half in favor of the protests.

With what we have seen lately, I doubt support is anything thing like that across the country.

As to your second point: Yanukovich was elected with a real majority of votes cast in an election that even his opposition agreed was "free and fair." If you believe in democracy, he should be allowed to complete his full term, which will end next year. To force him out of power earlier is to reject democracy itself. Do you believe in democracy or not?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

44. It's clear Yanukoych no longer believes in democracy.

Otherwise, he wouldn't have passed laws outlawing most forms of protests and wouldn't be jailing opponents.

[another_liberal]

45. If that is the case . . .

I'm sure the Ukrainian Constitution includes means by which he can be legally removed from office for malfeasance, without resorting to barrages of Molotov cocktails and the burning down of half of Kiev.

Anyway, the question was: Do you believe in Democracy or don't you?

Well, do you?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

47. When you've got live ammunition snipers shooting at protesters, it's pretty clear....

...that the entire democratic structure has gone out the window.

It's a horrible situation and I don't condone any type of violence. But it's so much more complicated than you want it to be.

[Xolodno]

49. That's a bit narrow minded....

In the mind of Tea-Partiers...Benghazi and the IRS are valid...no matter how much they may be mis-informed and of course think we are all delusional. To them, its a valid national crisis...just don't have the organization to attempt something like they are doing in Ukraine....thankfully.

And the Ukraine may or may not have a national crisis...depending on one's point of view. They are broke and have huge bills to pay. Russia offered to pay it for them, provided they don't become anti-Russia...so from the populace that wants closer ties to Moscow...this shouldn't be a problem....and to them, those who want the EU deal are falling for a "bogus non-story"

The populace that doesn't want to be in Moscow's sphere of influence and is willing to go through Greek Austerity for the time being think its a national crisis for not siding with EU. They think they are losing their independence and becoming a satellite state of Russia...a view that has been promoted by US special interests (and we know the US Government has a hand of this due to that leaked phone call). So to them, the populace that wants closer ties with Moscow are delusional.

And the ironic thing in all this....Ukraine could take Russia's offer and still negotiate some good trade deals with the EU later. Granted they won't be as good the EU has on the table now...but in the long term they could set themselves up to be less reliant on both the EU and Russia. But...everyone see's this as only two sides and once choice is "bad".

[another_liberal]

14. If we continue to support the violent overthrow of democratically elected governments . . .

How long do you think it will be before our own democracy is taken away from us? Or doesn't that matter to the cheering section for the Maidan Molotov cocktail brigade?

[bemildred]

22. I think it was about thirty years ago, or thereabouts, when Reagan came in,

that our democracy was taken away, but it's always been shaky.

I'm not cheeering anybody, if that helps, I think they are one-and-all likely to regret the whole thing. But people who only see two sides always think you must be on the other one.

[another_liberal]

24. I don't agree that our democracy, ". . . was taken away."

Reagan was the start of a regression in regard to the rights of most Americans, but we still have a democracy. Hell the people still even win now and then!

As to your contention you are not cheering anyone: I'm glad I misjudged what you were saying. In the case of Ukraine, I believe the only people who are truly worth cheering are those protesters who want a better, more honest government through nonviolent means.

[bemildred]

33. Yeah, that was clear in post #14. nt

[Xolodno]

25. Ukraine's best bet...

...was to forge trade agreements with the EU and Russia together. But, the powers that be wanted Ukraine to do an all or nothing deal.

My question is...what did the US government have to gain by having Ukraine firmly siding with the west? A closer CIA listening post? Stunting Russia's re-emergence as a regional empire that is predominately contained to its immediate sphere of influence? Just have the opportunity to stick it to Putin one last time?

The EU obviously thought it wasn't worth it. Why anger a trading partner and stoke old cold war era fears? Certain politicians in our government have accused Putin of having a cold war mentality...but it appears the reverse is probably true as well.

[amandabeech]

27. The Russians provide a huge proportion of the natural gas used in Germany.

Former PM Schroeder (sp) is up to his neck in it. A few years ago, Russia and Germany were trying to build a new gas pipeline through the Baltic to avoid using a pipeline through Poland, which, of course, angered the Poles considering both the historical metaphor and the cold winter weather.

It's hard to imagine Chancellor Merkel to cut off that supply for Ukraine, but other nearby Eastern European Nato countries might feel a bit uncomfortable.

Of course, we could just frack everything, build natgas tankers and natgas liquification plants like it was WWII and supply all of Europe with enough gas for everyone. Just kidding.

[bemildred]

30. I agree, said as much a couple weeks ago. You want to play them off against each other.

The US government is largely delusional, and acts irrationally all the time. Take a look at what they are up to? You won't get far trying to figure out what they are trying to do, because they don't know either. It's all slogans and clinging to past "glory". Basically they fear peace. Peace will require big changes. Think about what happened to the USSR, we are well on our way there too. Things are not working so good here any more and our leaders have no idea what to do other than keeping the old rackets going as long as they can. We should be ignored until we start to talk sense.

The EU cannot afford to piss off Russia, or Ukraine either.

[Xolodno]

36. Maybe thats the whole issue there...Peace.

We have not been in a Peace-time economy since before WW2....and to transition to would be painful. With Russia only concerned about nations it borders...hard to make an enemy of them. China is too much of a trading partner...with both US and Russia...the only *enemies* left are in the Middle East and their is no appetite at home for another war there...and no one else (governments to sell weapons to) wants to get tangled up in that mess either.

[bemildred]

37. Yes.

[DFW]

71. A true peace-time economy?

Холодно, I don't think there has been a true example of that since the Pax Romana.

[dipsydoodle]

48. what did the US government have to gain by having Ukraine firmly siding with the west?

Getting them into the anachronism known as NATO.

[bemildred]

50. Yep, that's pretty much it, and that is motivated mostly by cold war nostalgia. nt

[EmilyAnne]

55. Sorry, but you can't expect all Ukrainians to accept Viktor Yanukovich's election.

Viktor Yanukovich was involved in massive electoral fraud in the 2004 election.

I'm wondering if you have much historical context here?

Do you know anything about the Berkut?
They have been resorting to violent attacks against the protestors since at least last August.
Read about the kidnapping and sexual assault of Sasha Haylak, for example.
Or the kid who was kidnapped, stripped, beaten and dumped outside Kiev where he froze to death.
The Berkut and by reasonable extension Yanukovich have been creating martyrs all this time.
This explosion in Maidan was bound to happen because Yanukovich failed to reign in the Berkut immediately.

I don't condone any violence taking place in this demonstration, but many Ukrainian people are desperate to rid themselves of the association with Russia and rightfully so. I won't get into the reasons here. Any rational, literate person should be able to understand them.

Yes, there are violent, right wing, nationalist elements in Ukraine. You can say the same thing about Russia. Whether they are participating as a way of simply causing chaos or whether they are actually committed to a free Ukraine remains to be seen.
Many opposition leaders have openly condemned the violence on the part of the protestors, btw, and they believe the violence of the opposition is simply meant to delegitimize their cause.

One thing is certain, however.
The Berkut are under the control of Yanukovich. He has had absolute authority to reign them in.
The more extremist elements of the opposition are not exactly under the direct control of anyone.
This is the nature of all popular uprisings. All sorts of pissed off people show up.

[another_liberal]

61. The latest Presidential election in Ukraine . . .

The 2004 election notwithstanding, the latest Presidential election in Ukraine was declared free and fair by all involved. In that election, Yanukovich won by an actual majority of votes cast. If you believe in democracy at all, you must respect that outcome.

If the President has committed crimes while in office which are serious enough, then he should be removed by legal means provided in the Ukrainian Constitution. To call for or support his removal by violent street actions instead is to reject the very principles democracy is founded on. There really is no other way to see it.

[Paula Sims]

59. When you have NOTHING else to lose, and your life is ALL you have, then you fight to the death

These people have had enough. Enough corruption, enough false promises from the East & West, just enough. That's why they take to the streets. They tried the peaceful protests and those haven't helped. The riots are not just recent issues -- the issues go back decades, hundreds of years, over a thousand (it was Volodymyr the Great that accepted Christianity to the Ukrainian lands, NOT Russia).

They want what many many in the world have -- a home, a life, love, family, food. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yes, I know not EVERYONE has these but many do. These are well educated people, many professionals (doctors, lawyers, priests, professors) protesting, yes, rioting, along side the worker because they're willing to give up everything -- their lives --for a better Ukraine.

Why won't this happen here in the US? Lots of reasons, but mainly because very few Americans have NOTHING to lose. Many have jobs, homes, whatever. Or perhaps it's like the circus elephant that no longer has chains but thinks it still does. I don't know -- I just know not enough of us are mad enough to do the same here.

With Ukraine's strategic position (yup, strategery here), it really is in the best interests of all not to have a split Ukraine (which I envision would look more like East & West Germany). I don't know what will happen -- I just fear for my family, friends, and countrymen.