New Donetsk governor says Russians behind east Ukraine clashes

[steve2470]

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - The new governor of the eastern Ukrainian region of Donetsk on Friday said Russians were behind violent clashes between rival demonstrators in which one man was killed, and accused Moscow of distorting the truth in its account of what happened.

Dmitriy Chernyavskiy, 22, was stabbed to death in Donetsk, the heartland of Ukraine's Russian-speaking coalfields, after pro-Russian protesters clashed with others favoring European integration and denouncing Russia's incursion into Crimea.

Four of 29 people injured received hospital treatment.

"Sadly, we note that there were, according to police, a lot of people concentrated there who were not from Ukraine," Serhiy Taruta told journalists in an oblique reference to Russia.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/14/us-ukraine-crisis-donetsk-idUSBREA2D13L20140314

[snappyturtle]

1. Keep in mind who Serhiy Taruta is:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26487096

snip....


The protesters' unofficial leader is Pavel Gubarev. He describes himself as the people's governor but his virtual regime in Donetsk lasted less than a week.

On Thursday, as he was preparing for a BBC interview, police officers came to arrest him.

"I will charge you with attempting to resist," an investigator warned a Gubarev supporter.

snip...

The offensive against the pro-Russian demonstrators has been led by Donetsk's new governor, Sergei Taruta. He's a billionaire businessman and one of the oligarchs recruited by the new authorities in Kiev to assert authority in the regions.

[rdharma]

3. Sergei Taruta says Donetsk is under complete control.

Unlike the Koch brothers in the US, the Urainian oligarchs don't need to buy their government..... They just get themselves appointed to positions where they can RUN the government directly. A real "hands on" approach.

[geek tragedy]

2. Putin is citing this as a possible reason to invade nt

[rdharma]

4. We've got to get organized!

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/mv-NbS7/the_russians_are_coming_the_russians_are_coming_weve_got_to_get_organized/

[geek tragedy]

5. eh, some of us oppose militarism and war and imperialism on principle, not just

when the US does it.

[rdharma]

6. Good! That means that you are also against putsches of democratically elected governments........

Right?

[geek tragedy]

7. sure when they happen, not when the state media of an imperialist power like

Russia says they happen.

[rdharma]

8. Oh, it happened alright!

Or what would you call it?

"Imperialist power", eh? You don't feel even a bit silly for throwing that out there?

[geek tragedy]

9. I would call it a president abdicating power by fleeing the country

rather than face legal accountability for his crimes in office. And then being removed from office by a virtually unanimous vote of the country's legally elected representatives due to his abdication. (no he can't rule Ukraine from a shopping mall in Russia)

Better question is how you don't feel silly denying that Russia is a militaristic, imperialist bully.

[rdharma]

10. I would call it rule of the mob.....

....spearheaded by RW fascists and supported by foreign corporatists and intelligence agencies.

[geek tragedy]

13. sure you would, that's what the Russian propaganda outlets are calling it

But, that claim is merely apologia for Russian abuses and crimes

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/13/ukraine-uprising-fascist-coup-grassroots-movement?CMP=twt_gu

With Ukraine on the brink of invasion and division, most people in Kiev blame the country's troubles on the former president. "This is Yanukovych's fault," Zhenia, a pensioner, said, surveying the battleground in Institutska Street, where many were gunned down. She was crying.

Nearby, visitors bowed before makeshift brick shrines, some decorated with gas masks and helmets. Others crossed themselves. One child's drawing said: "Eternal glory to the heroes".

According to those who took part in it, the uprising was a broad-based grassroots movement, launched by people fed up with Yanukovych and involving all sections of society. Some demonstrators were indeed nationalists. Others were liberals, socialists and libertarians. There were Christians and atheists. There were workers from the provinces, as well as IT geeks from Kiev more at home with MacBooks than molotovs.

You can have the last word, since it's apparent you're just repeating the party line from Moscow, which got tedious weeks ago.

[rdharma]

21. "Some demonstrators were indeed nationalists."

"Nationalists"...... in this case that's a nice way to say "neo-Nazi thugs". The Sturmabteilung (SA) that lead the "peaceful demonstrations" in Kiev were the Right Sector and Svoboda. That's a fact.

[geek tragedy]

22. that's a far cry from "this was a Neo-Nazi putsch" nt

[snappyturtle]

11. What many don't realize is the loss of income to Ukraine that the

Russia Federation pays the Ukraine to lease its port, etc. Makes me
wonder with whom Ukraine's best interest should be allied...the oligarchs,
ultra-nationalists or Russia? Plus, signing on with the EU will bring
NATO into the picture.

[amandabeech]

12. The New York Times has reported just a few minutes ago that F.M. Lavrov

told Sec. Kerrey that Russia would not invade southern or eastern Ukraine.

If true, it is a very positive sign, and takes some of the pressure off for now.

Russia refuses to remove troops from Crimea or to order them back to the Russian-leased military bases, and insists that the "election" will go forward on Sunday.

CNBC reported within the last few minutes that the ballot to be used in Ukraine does not have an option to vote to stay within Ukraine, either with increased autonomy or with the status quo ante.

The only possible votes are for autonomy or immediate absorption into Russia.

If CNBC is right, Russia insults the intelligence of Crimeans with a parody of a free and fair election with the ballot itself.

[geek tragedy]

14. The word of the Russian ambassador is meaningless, imo.

But, I would think it unlikely just because the response from the rest of the world would cripple Russia's economy for a decade, not to mention giving it Afghanistan Redux on its border.

[arewenotdemo]

15. What about the word of Victoria Nuland?

Consider for a second what the American response to a Russian-orchestrated regime change in Canada or Mexico would be.

[geek tragedy]

16. there was no American-orchestrated regime change in Ukraine.

Please stop insulting the Ukrainians who took to the streets to protest the horrid corruption and abuses of the Yanukovych regime by implying they are unthinking automatons being manipulated by vastly more intelligent beings from the Western hemisphere.

Yankukovych lost legitimacy in the eyes of the Ukrainian people, was in danger of having his outright theft of billions of dollars from the people of Ukraine exposed, and fled rather than face prosecution.

repeating the big lie from Moscow doesn't make it any more true

[arewenotdemo]

17. Are you kidding? What was the conversation between Nuland and the US Ambassador

but a decision on who was in and who was out of the new government?

[geek tragedy]

20. why did the Ukrainian people protest against Yanukovych, in your opinion? nt

[arewenotdemo]

28. What I've read/heard is that he opted for the Russian bailout.

Seems it was one more politically fragile country....like Syria, IMO.

The sort that a global power could break apart at the opportune moment, if it so wished.

[geek tragedy]

30. that's not an answer. why did the people of the Ukraine protest and want this guy out? nt

[arewenotdemo]

35. Of course it's an answer.

In a politically-volatile situation, Yanukovych sided with Russia instead of the the EU and the US.

Which is not at all acceptable by Washington standards.

[geek tragedy]

37. that was what the Ukrainian people cared most about--enough to drive him out?nt

[Igel]

39. Possibly many things.

The problem is a kind of non-reasoning called abduction.

Logic:
All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.

Abductive reasoning:
All men are mortal.
Socrates is mortal.
Therefore Socrates is a man.

Sounds right, completely logical, and therefore true?

What if I said that Socrates was what I called my cat? Cats are also mortal. This is a kind of hypothesis-formation strategy. But it's often believed to indicate logical proof. It's not proof. It makes a possible claim.

The conversation is compatible with collusion and such. It's compatible with a number of interpretations. But since it has an interpretation that fits what you want to think, that must be its only true interpretation.

Helping this along is the frame, the spin, that the conversation was presented with. You were primed. My kid yesterday used the strange metaphor "cold as a corpse" and my wife looked at him strangely. I reminded her that we were canoeing and there were lily pads that were reaching up towards the surface. My kid said they looked like hands, and I responded, "Yeah, the cold, dead hands of those who drowned, reaching up for you." He laughed at the macabre nature of my allusion. But "dead hands" calls to mind corpses. He was cold later and "cold as a corpse" came to mind because, hours later, those particular associations were activated in his brain and hadn't yet reached rest state. He was primed to associate "cold" with "corpse." It was an easy "reach" for his brain, even if he wasn't sure why it was such an easy reach. He'd forgotten I'd said that.

So the frame you heard the conversation in told you what you'd be hearing. You were primed. And what you remember is the inference you drew, not the priming. That's good Madison Avenue advertising techniques, a way of manipulating the public to buy goods and ideas. (It's what Lakoff thinks all good (D) should do. Manipulate people like he says the (R) do.)

But many wanted to hear that anyway. It's very hard work to fight priming, and even harder work to fight confirmation bias.

I have a list of things I think they should be required to teach in high school. Gricean maxims. Priming. Substitution heuristics when it comes to thinking.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

18. I'm sure Russia won't invade Eastern Ukraine.

I'm also sure many mysterious men in green insignia-less uniforms driving Russian tanks will soon appear in Eastern Ukraine.

[amandabeech]

19. Well, who knows.

I'm just repeating what the Times reported.

[rdharma]

24. Where is that? Which cities are you talking about? nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

27. Currently? Simferopol, Sevastapol, a few others.

But I wouldn't be surprised if we see some in Donetsk very soon.

[rdharma]

31. Those cities are in Crimea......NOT Ukraine.

I guess you haven't heard the news...... Crimea has declared its independence and is no longer a part of Ukraine.

I'm sure you'll write a retraction when your predicted Donetsk scenario doesn't occur as you're predicting.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

33. As per recognized international treaty to which Russia was a signatory....

....they are part of Ukraine, like it or not.

[rdharma]

34. As per the ICJ ruling on the independence of Kosovo....... Crimea is legally independent.

Or is it only "legal" when it suits you?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

36. Is it really indepedent?

Given that since arrival of the Non-Russian-Russian-Brigade, Russian Flags have been flying everywhere.

[rdharma]

38. We'll see. Maybe they want to become part of Russia. Referendum in two days. nt

[Igel]

40. And so's Chechnya.

You know, an autonomous republic wanting to split from a larger political entity with which it shares scant historical or ethnic ties?

Russia screwed that pooch long before Kosovo.

[rdharma]

41. What does the ICJ opinion on Kosovo have to do with Chechnya?

[arewenotdemo]

25. Russia won't invade eastern Ukraine.

For one thing, it would have much less influence in what would become the new Ukraine.

Ukraine without Crimea is already much less Russian.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. There is video.

[rdharma]

26. Murdoch directed VICE NEWS........ really?

Murdoch Jr's very own version of daddy's FOX NEWS. Right on!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

29. You can't deny what you can see.

Spin all you want.

(FWIW, Murdoch's investment is reportedly all of 5%).

[rdharma]

32. "Reportedly" Murdoch Jr. is the DIRECTOR of VICE NEWS.......... nt

[OKNancy]

42. kick