Russia Is Preparing to Invade East Ukraine, Estonia Says

[okaawhatever]

Source: Bloomberg

Russian President Vladimir Putin is preparing to “invade eastern Ukraine” after occupying the country’s Black Sea peninsula of Crimea, Estonia said.

Russia warned that Ukraine’s government has lost control of the country today, fueling concern the Kremlin may extend a military intervention as U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry called for it to halt a takeover of the disputed province.

Events in Ukraine “clearly show that the Russian Federation only accepts force,” Estonian Defense Minister Urmas Reinsalu said in an e-mailed statement today. To deter Putin, “a clear message needs to be sent that an attack will cost the aggressor dearly.”

Continued at Link

Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-14/russia-is-preparing-to-invade-east-ukraine-estonia-says.html

---

Remember Estonia was the country who had the intelligence that said Russia was preparing to invade Georgia. They even had the name of two of the units that were going to be used. Unfortunately the info never got to the right people.

[William769]

1. Can anyone say iron curtain?

They already have the iron closet.

[dipsydoodle]

2. Georgia is hardly a good example.

With Russian troops poised to sever Crimea from Ukraine, tough-talking conservatives are claiming they were right about the threat from Vladimir Putin all along. The Wall Street Journal interviewed former Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who offered the West his lessons learned from losing the 2008 clash with the Russians. Meanwhile to the delight of the right-wing blogosphere, Sarah Palin boasted "I told ya so" about her October 2008 prediction that Ukraine would be next.

Of course, there's only one small problem with the crowing from conservatives now enjoying some schadenfreude at President Obama's expense. As we now know, Saakashvili himself bears much of the responsibility for starting the war with Russia.

>

Sadly for Palin, In the fall of 2009, a report commissioned by the Council of the European Union instead found that Georgia "started unjustified war." While the EU analysis placed blame on both Tbilisi and Moscow for what transpired, it rejected the Georgian government's explanation that the attack was defensive. As the BBC reported (below):

>

The cables show that for several years, as Georgia entered an escalating contest with the Kremlin for the future of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, two breakaway enclaves out of Georgian control that received Russian support, Washington relied heavily on the Saakashvili government's accounts of its own behavior. In neighboring countries, American diplomats often maintained their professional distance, and privately detailed their misgivings of their host governments. In Georgia, diplomats appeared to set aside skepticism and embrace Georgian versions of important and disputed events.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/01/1281384/-Sarah-Palin-Wall-Street-Journal-rewrite-history-of-Russia-Georgia-war

[rdharma]

3. Estonia loves NATO. And American money.

Estonia even sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Time to pay our "friendship dues" to Estonia for this newest statement.

[LiberalEsto]

5. As an Estonian-American, I can say that Estonia desperately needs NATO's protection,

not that it necessarily loves NATO, because they are scared shitless of Putin and Russia.

The Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians and other peoples who were illegally occupied by the Soviet Union are terrified that if Putin gets his way with Ukraine, he will try to recapture their countries. I have relatives in Estonia and I share their concerns.

Estonia sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan because it was pressured by the U.S. to participate in the "Coalition of the (more or less) Willing". They hoped that doing so would gain them membership in NATO and potential protection from future Russian invasion. Their actions are far less based on a love of money (and be fair, doesn't everyone want money?) than on fear.

[rdharma]

8. Fair enough.

I didn't mean to slam Estonia. But I believe their fears of a future Russian invasion are a bit exaggerated.

[LiberalEsto]

12. Actually Poland is also extremely concerned, from what I've read on BBC

and in the Estonian media.

Ten years ago I would have said their concerns were a bit exaggerated. But Russia's bloody annexation of parts of the Republic of Georgia, began scaring people. The situation in Ukraine, with Russian military involvement, and Russia's refusal to negotiate, is extremely worrisome to people who were forced to live under the Russian yoke for nearly 50 years.

[rdharma]

16. Poland's "fears" are completely unfounded.

What I said about Estonia being interested in US aid (money) is doubly true for Poland.

There's no real threat of Russian invasion, but they'll milk it for every US$ they can get.

[geek tragedy]

18. Why, because you and rt.com said so?

It's no coincidence that all of Russia's neighbors--the former slaves of the USSR--are frightened of the regional imperialist bullies in Moscow.

You are certainly entitled to hold the naive belief that Russia is a nice, harmless cuddly little bear of a neighbor that would never invade or bully them with military force.

But don't expect people who lived with Russian boots on their throats for 50 years to buy it.

[rdharma]

19. No. Because I am intimately familiar with the situation in Poland.

Rozumiesz o czym mówię?

[geek tragedy]

20. this gives you psychic insight into Moscow's plans? nt

[rdharma]

27. Vs. your "insight" into the situation?

Yup! Probably.

[geek tragedy]

53. I am not the one who has been exposed as a historical revisionist seeking

to whitewash the abuses of a now deceased totalitarian empire.

[rdharma]

55. Huh?

Reality to geek tragedy, do you read me.... over

Negative contact..... reality, out

[geek tragedy]

56. you claimed that liberalEsto's account of conscriptions of estonians

to clean up Chernobyl was untrue

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=755634

Strange, I never heard of the "special conscription practices" involving residents of the Baltics.

And I was in a position to know if this had occurred.

Makes an exciting story...... even if it didn't happen.

, and you claimed this based on your own personal knowledge based on your job duties at the time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=755659

I base it on my job at the time.

I'd really be curious to know how your cousin avoided the military conscription.

Chernobyl was in 1986. Did he hide out until Estonia got its independence?

Turns out, he was telling the truth, and you were not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=755692

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=755699

which should make everyone wonder whom you were serving at the time and whether your loyalties endure

[rdharma]

58. No. That has nothing to do with conscription practices.

Makes for an exciting story. But sorry, not true.

[geek tragedy]

61. I think I will trust the person who was there rather than

the person who has has established zero reason why anyone should believe a single word he says

What was your job?

[uhnope]

22. Ukrainian fears were unfounded a month ago. You're a Putin apologist

which is the opposite of being progressive

[rdharma]

29. No. Not aplogizing for Putin's actions.

You like name calling and false accusations?

[uhnope]

31. Putin is a dictator who has crushed Russian democracy and is now invading a sovereign country.

Yes or no?

[rdharma]

33. Are you a Tea Party member..... or a Republican?

Yes or no? .......... See how that works?

[okaawhatever]

36. We don't kid ourselves about the tea party around here. They would do everything Putin is doing

given the chance, but luckily our laws slow them down. If it weren't for the Supreme Court and Citizens United we'd be laughing at what they want to accomplish. If they had the military, constitution, and a thoroughly opaque budget Ted Cruz would be BFFs with Putin and we'd all be working for $20 per day.

[rdharma]

39. And we would all be forced to answer leading questions.......

Yes or no?

I think you get my point.

[Scootaloo]

80. With 446 posts and that attitude...

Maybe you should ask what uhnope's previous Du handle was, so you can research?

[uhnope]

94. Easy, I'm absolutely neither. But you won't denounce a dictator, an invasion, or stick up for

Ukraine's right to self determination. Get out of here with your Putin apologia.

[geek tragedy]

47. You are an apologist for the former Soviet Union, as witnessed by your unethical behavior

in this thread where you called someone a liar for discussion an historical truth, that their own family experienced.

You claimed the Soviet Union didn't conscript people from the Baltics to work at Chernobyl, and the Estonian person was making it up.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Paper-Says-Estonian-Conscripts-on-Chernobyl-Cleanup-Staged-Strike/id-f92d356d47a42b66c835b96f6d019d9b

[rdharma]

83. No. The claim was that people from the Baltics were specifically conscripted to work at Chernobyl.

Learn to read.

[geek tragedy]

87. And I provided a contemporaneous account backing that claim up and directly

contradicting your apologia for the USSR.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Paper-Says-Estonian-Conscripts-on-Chernobyl-Cleanup-Staged-Strike/id-f92d356d47a42b66c835b96f6d019d9b

Ilves said the articles reported that the men were drafted abruptly for Chernobyl duty and indicated such conscription had taken place throughout the Soviet Union.

You should learn to tell the truth.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

86. Of course you are.

For example, here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4638710

[rdharma]

91. Thanks for reposting that ........ I stand by it! nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

93. So you admit you lied when you said you weren't apologizing for Putin.

Gotcha.

[AnalystInParadise]

104. Because Russia

doesn't want Poland or the Baltics.....they only want Ukraine....well the Crimea and the Eastern half of Ukraine

[geek tragedy]

17. And Latvia and Lithuania.

Even Kazakhstan has grown wary of the bear.

[geek tragedy]

6. NATO is the only thing keeping Russian tanks out of Ida-Varu.

They had to put up with the Kremlin's foreign occupiers for decades.

There isn't a sane person on this planet who would rather live in Russia rather than Estonia.

[rdharma]

9. You can't get that "Cold War thinking" out of your head...... can you?

Nobody said anything about Estonians preferring to live in Russia. That's just another one of your strange straw man arguments.

[geek tragedy]

11. Point being that NATO is providing Estonians a lot of comfort

knowing that their country won't be sliced and diced by Russian tanks.

And that it was entirely rational and appropriate for Estonia's government to join NATO.

Bashing of NATO expansion used to be pretty common in certain quarters. Certainly seems like a good idea now.

[rdharma]

13. Yup! You're still living in the "duck and cover" era.

Really sad.

[geek tragedy]

14. No. As an American, I have nothing to fear from Russia.

Russia's neighbors have plenty to fear from Russia.

They are not naifs.

[LiberalEsto]

26. Your criticism is, in my view, unwarranted.

One doesn't have to have a "Cold War" outlook to fear the Russians who captured their country, shipped tens of thousands of them to Siberia, and moved vast numbers of Russians into Estonia and the other Baltic nations to "Russify" them.

During the Soviet regime, Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians were forced to use Russian as the "official" language. School was taught in Russian, but Estonian children were secretly taught the Estonian language, culture and history at home in order to keep their culture from disappearing. The Russians held all the good jobs, while Estonians were mainly required to do menial work. The Russians basically treated the Estonians like crap, and this was true in Latvia and Lithuania as well. (Now, of course, the big Russian population still living in Estonia bitches and moans about having to learn Estonian, the language of the nation in which they have lived for decades and lorded it over the natives.)

A little story from my own relatives can illustrate this. When the Chernobyl nuclear disaster happened, the Russians conscripted hundreds of men from the Baltics and other outlying Soviet Republics to go in there and deal with the situation. The Russians didn't want to sacrifice their own people, but people like Estonians were considered worthless enough to sacrifice.

As the Russian soldiers made their way through the town where my relatives lived, word got out about what they were doing. When the knock came at my relatives' door, my cousin Arno had already fled out the back door and stayed hidden in the woods for many days. Had he been dragged off to Chernobyl, he likely would have died of radiation poisoning. The Russians wanted what they considered "inferior" people to clean up the mess the Russians themselves made.

[rdharma]

32. Strange, I never heard of the "special conscription practices" involving residents of the Baltics.

And I was in a position to know if this had occurred.

Makes an exciting story...... even if it didn't happen.

[LiberalEsto]

34. This happened to my own first cousin.

I'd like to know how you would be in a position to claim this never happened.
What do you base this statement on?

[rdharma]

37. I base it on my job at the time.

I'd really be curious to know how your cousin avoided the military conscription.

Chernobyl was in 1986. Did he hide out until Estonia got its independence?

[LiberalEsto]

40. I answered your question in my previous post.

My cousin fled out the back door and and stayed hidden in the woods for many days.

I feel that your comments and responses on this thread are out of line and not conducive to civil discussion on DU.

[rdharma]

42. I'm not trying to be rude.

But your cousin would have had to stay in the woods for several years.

I just thought you could clear up this question that I had about your very interesting story. TIA.

[geek tragedy]

44. Why? did the cleanup with the USSR's conscipts last that long in full force?

You seem awfully eager to whitewash the abuses of the Soviet Union.

Guilty conscience?

[geek tragedy]

45. He is telling the truth and you are the one who is LYING to cover for the Soviet Unions' abuses

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Paper-Says-Estonian-Conscripts-on-Chernobyl-Cleanup-Staged-Strike/id-f92d356d47a42b66c835b96f6d019d9b

Estonian conscripts on cleanup duty near the Chernobyl nuclear power plant staged a strike and scuffled with police, according to news reports in the tiny Soviet republic.

The content of a six-part series published in the Estonian newspaper Noorte Haal was reported here today by Toomas Ilves, an Estonian affairs expert for Radio Free Europe.

Ilves, in a telephone interview with The Associated Press, said the paper reported the conscripts rebelled briefly when told they would have to remain on the job near the damaged reactor longer than expected.

One of the four reactors at the Chernobyl plant exploded on April 26, killing 31 people and spreading radiation worldwide.

Ilves said the articles reported that the men were drafted abruptly for Chernobyl duty and indicated such conscription had taken place throughout the Soviet Union.

Estonia has about 1.5 million people and sits on the Baltic Sea, across from Finland.

The Noorte Haal reports said a group of Estonian conscripts went on strike and fought with police in June when they were told their tour of duty was being extended from two to six months.

The incident was brief and rumors about the ''uprising ... or whatever else it was being called'' were greatly exaggerated, according to Ilves' translation of the reports.

The articles were written by Tonis Avikson, whom Ilves said was a commentator for Noorte Haal sent to Chernobyl.

The Estonian conscripts were put to work in the stricken area washing houses and stripping topsoil, Ilves quoted Avikson's reports as saying.

Some of the conscripts became ill from radiation and from spending cold nights in tents, the reports added.

So, take your dishonest pro-USSR revisionism (and your blatant propagandizing on behalf of Vladimir Putin) somewhere else where actual progressives aren't there to fact-check you.

[LiberalEsto]

50. THANK YOU!!!!!

Calling someone a liar (in other words) is not acceptable behavior in DU.

[geek tragedy]

52. It's really bad form to accuse someone of lying and then lie yourself. It's really dumb

to do that when it's easily verifiable.

and very revealing.

thanks for helping with some real life context in this discussion

[rdharma]

57. Hid in the woods 1986 until independence.

Oh, please!

[geek tragedy]

59. your behavior of spreading falsehoods while claiming that the poster who is telling

an easily verifiable truth is lying is disgusting and dishonest.

You have been shown to be not telling the truth when you denied that there were conscriptions in Estonia for Chernobyl work. Yet you continue to troll here by insinuating that LiberalEsto is making it up.

[rdharma]

65. There were not Soviet special conscriptions from the Baltics to be employed at Chernobyl.

Facts are facts.

I simply asked how LiberalEsto's cousin "managed to avoid conscription".

Having interviewed actual conscripts of the time....... story sounds..... questionable.

[geek tragedy]

67. repeating the falsehood doesn't make it true.

You:

There were not Soviet special conscriptions from the Baltics to be employed at Chernobyl.

Reality:

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Paper-Says-Estonian-Conscripts-on-Chernobyl-Cleanup-Staged-Strike/id-f92d356d47a42b66c835b96f6d019d9b

Estonian conscripts on cleanup duty near the Chernobyl nuclear power plant staged a strike and scuffled with police, according to news reports in the tiny Soviet republic.

The content of a six-part series published in the Estonian newspaper Noorte Haal was reported here today by Toomas Ilves, an Estonian affairs expert for Radio Free Europe.

Ilves, in a telephone interview with The Associated Press, said the paper reported the conscripts rebelled briefly when told they would have to remain on the job near the damaged reactor longer than expected.

One of the four reactors at the Chernobyl plant exploded on April 26, killing 31 people and spreading radiation worldwide.

Ilves said the articles reported that the men were drafted abruptly for Chernobyl duty and indicated such conscription had taken place throughout the Soviet Union.

Estonia has about 1.5 million people and sits on the Baltic Sea, across from Finland.

The Noorte Haal reports said a group of Estonian conscripts went on strike and fought with police in June when they were told their tour of duty was being extended from two to six months.

The incident was brief and rumors about the ''uprising ... or whatever else it was being called'' were greatly exaggerated, according to Ilves' translation of the reports.

The articles were written by Tonis Avikson, whom Ilves said was a commentator for Noorte Haal sent to Chernobyl.

The Estonian conscripts were put to work in the stricken area washing houses and stripping topsoil, Ilves quoted Avikson's reports as saying.

Some of the conscripts became ill from radiation and from spending cold nights in tents, the reports added.

[rdharma]

71. So stop repeating.

No special USSR conscription from Baltic countries for Chernobyl cleanup.

[Ghost Dog]

90. From your (Radio Free Europe!) source:

"...such conscription had taken place throughout the Soviet Union."

So, truly not especially particular to Baltic countries, perhaps.

[geek tragedy]

95. they are denying that people in the Baltics were drafted specifically for Chernobyl.

There were not Soviet special conscriptions from the Baltics to be employed at Chernobyl.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=755734

Note:

even if this were happening all over the Soviet Union, that would not in any way disprove what LiberalEsto said happened in Estonia.

He's saying LiberalEsto or her family are lying about what happened in Estonia.

Despite the fact the historical record CLEARLY backs her up.

[OilemFirchen]

101. I might have read one of your articles.

Was there a bit about a wind turbine blade slicing through four feet of sleet?

[LiberalEsto]

64. Now you are putting words in my mouth

I NEVER said he hid for the time period you're claiming.
My cousin hid for a short time, maybe a week or two.

I have stated this in two posts, and you have chosen to deliberately ignore what I wrote, basically accusing me of being a liar.

You are the one who is distorting things here. I am beginning to get extremely sick of your rude and accusative behavior in this thread.

What axe are you grinding? Are you a Russian? If so, why don't you come out and admit it?

[rdharma]

68. Then he continued to stay under the radar until independence.

Exciting story.......

[geek tragedy]

77. You are trolling, trolling trolling by suggesting that person is not telling the truth.

Ironically, you yourself have been proven to be telling falsehoods deliberately here.

[rdharma]

81. What truth or falsehoods are you talking about?

Your cousin hiding in the woods to avoid conscription?

I don't believe it.

[geek tragedy]

82. And no one here believes you, comrade.

That person has a great deal of credibility, is not a demonstrable propagandist for the USSR or Russia, and their claims match up with historical accounts.

All you have is 'nyet.'

[rdharma]

84. All "credibility" was lost on me with that "targeted conscription" claim.

Because it didn't happen.

[geek tragedy]

85. You CLAIM it didn't happen. You have given no one any reason to believe

you have any relevant knowledge, nor that you would be inclined to tell the truth if you did have it.

Contemporaneous accounts indicate she is telling the truth, and that you are deliberately telling falsehoods.

Estonian conscripts on cleanup duty near the Chernobyl nuclear power plant staged a strike and scuffled with police, according to news reports in the tiny Soviet republic. ... Ilves said the articles reported that the men were drafted abruptly for Chernobyl duty and indicated such conscription had taken place throughout the Soviet Union.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Paper-Says-Estonian-Conscripts-on-Chernobyl-Cleanup-Staged-Strike/id-f92d356d47a42b66c835b96f6d019d9b


There are historical revisionist websites that could use someone with your disposition.

[rdharma]

88. I was in a position to know if that could have been used for political advantage against the USSR..

It wasn't because it wasn't true. And it was too easy to check at the time.

[geek tragedy]

89. What, you're claiming that your work in formulating propaganda on behalf

of the USSR qualifies you to judge verified claims about the abuses of the USSR?

Man, that's a spectacular lack of self-awareness.

P.S. You still have given no one any reason to believe a word you say. There is evidence that directly contradicts your pro-USSR denialism.

[rdharma]

97. Very tiring ......"cold war" fools who don't know what they're talking about. nt

[geek tragedy]

43. Was that position in the Red Army or the Party, comrade?

One gets the distinct impression old loyalties die hard for some.

[rdharma]

60. Oh, yes they do! You still fighting the lost war in Vietnam?

Sounds like it.

[geek tragedy]

62. you claim to be an expert in conscriptions in Estonia in 1986. What job did you have

that would give you such personal knowledge?

[rdharma]

72. No. I didn't claim to be an expert on conscriptions in Estonia in 1986.

So why do you claim that?

[geek tragedy]

74. then how pray tell could you possibly know whether an account from Estonia is

true or not?

So now you're saying you don't have any personal knowledge of conscriptions as they happened in Estonia, yet you feel free accuse LiberalEsto of telling falsehoods when she relates stories of her own flesh and blood in Estonia at the time?

In other words, you're just engaging in propaganda-driven denialism.

[rdharma]

76. Estonia was part of the Soviet Union at the time.

And I'm familiar with their conscription practices. It was part of my job at that time.

[geek tragedy]

79. So you were an agent/employee of the Soviet Union at the time this was happening?

Because only two groups of people would know about the conscription practices--the victims and the perpetrators.

This person's family was a victim. You were either a perpetrator or you're making shit up.

Either way, no one has any reason to believe you.

[okaawhatever]

49. What was your job at the time? Did you have to clean-up? Just curious. There appear

to be many articles but some are behind paywalls and some are in Russian or Ukrainian. The World Health Organization Report probably contains the info, too. Here's a report from a nuclear watchdog agency that gives a timeline of the events:


26 August: Estonian press tell of strikes and demonstrations
by Estonian military reservists forcibly conscripted Chernobyl
for clean-up labor. In November reports claim 12 people were
executed.

http://www.nirs.org/mononline/nm724.pdf

[geek tragedy]

54. Sure he had to clean up.

The local Red Army commander's boots got really dusty.

I do not think we will be seeing him return to this thread.

[okaawhatever]

66. rofl. Tell me how you really feel. nt

[rdharma]

73. Would you recommend that I polish them with one or your Tea Bags? nt

[geek tragedy]

75. Sorry, I'm a liberal Democrat. And liberal Democrats

rejected the odious USSR's abuses.

[geek tragedy]

46. You should apologize for your sleazy behavior in this thread. That person is telling the truth,

and you are calling him a liar based on your own lies about being able to disprove it.

I was in a position to know if this had occurred.

The fuck you were.

Estonian conscripts on cleanup duty near the Chernobyl nuclear power plant staged a strike and scuffled with police, according to news reports in the tiny Soviet republic.

The content of a six-part series published in the Estonian newspaper Noorte Haal was reported here today by Toomas Ilves, an Estonian affairs expert for Radio Free Europe.

Ilves, in a telephone interview with The Associated Press, said the paper reported the conscripts rebelled briefly when told they would have to remain on the job near the damaged reactor longer than expected.

One of the four reactors at the Chernobyl plant exploded on April 26, killing 31 people and spreading radiation worldwide.

Ilves said the articles reported that the men were drafted abruptly for Chernobyl duty and indicated such conscription had taken place throughout the Soviet Union.

Estonia has about 1.5 million people and sits on the Baltic Sea, across from Finland.

The Noorte Haal reports said a group of Estonian conscripts went on strike and fought with police in June when they were told their tour of duty was being extended from two to six months.

The incident was brief and rumors about the ''uprising ... or whatever else it was being called'' were greatly exaggerated, according to Ilves' translation of the reports.

The articles were written by Tonis Avikson, whom Ilves said was a commentator for Noorte Haal sent to Chernobyl.

The Estonian conscripts were put to work in the stricken area washing houses and stripping topsoil, Ilves quoted Avikson's reports as saying.

Some of the conscripts became ill from radiation and from spending cold nights in tents, the reports added.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Paper-Says-Estonian-Conscripts-on-Chernobyl-Cleanup-Staged-Strike/id-f92d356d47a42b66c835b96f6d019d9b

Sleazy, just sleazy. Thanks for outing yourself though, comrade.

[LiberalEsto]

69. Two little things, g.t.

I'm a she, not a he, but it's an easy mistake to make. My screenname is short for LiberalEstonian. The Esto is often thought to be a masculine Spanish verb or something...

Do you think the Toomas Ilves, one of the people mentioned in the article you posted, is the same Toomas Hendrik Ilves who was president of Estonia until very recently? (They just had a change of government this week.) Funny, Ilves and I both lived in NJ as kids and attended the same Estonian school on Saturdays, but I don't remember him at all.

[geek tragedy]

70. Ah, of course, confused you for a Spanish pronoun.

Sounds like an unlikely coincidence if it's not the same guy.

My wife's matron of honor and best friend is from Estonia. Amazing woman.

[7962]

113. Putin himself has said he wanted to remake the USSR, why do you not believe him?

After all, he says the breakup was the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century

[Igel]

15. Yes, it does.

It was occupied by Russia before WWI. Annexed.

It got its freedom partly because of German occupation, and partly because it fought Lenin's imperialist army when Lenin was trying to reestablish control over the entirety of the former empire. Empires are okay if they're run by progressives.

It was occupied again by Russia before Russia entered WWII. . One grievance was that it wasn't neutral, harboring a Polish sub (since there was no war with Poland, neutrality is a squishy concept--but clear enough to the parties involved: You're doing something we don't like). Having snagged half of Poland, Russia then decided it needed the Baltics. It wanted Soviet troops and bases in Estonia, or would be invaded.

Estonia said "okay," and a year later was blockaded and occupied. Russia feared it. Having been oppressed, and then helped by the Germans, perhaps it would again side wrongly and resist being a good vassal state.

After the war, since it "wasn't any of our business" and Estonia was in the "Russian sphere of influence" and we "had problems at home," we traded a lot of countries and millions of people for our peace and security. So Russians settled in occupied Estonia, and, when it finally broke away from the USSR, was reproved with "all you had to do is ask and we'd have let you go, you lousy ingrates--and be sure to treat our tireless servants in the interest of humanity, those who oppressed you, well." Like Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia.

There followed the the usual progressive, pro-humanist sabre-rattling when the indigenous population decided to reassert its rights and culture over the colonial population and not show proper gratitude for decades of political, economic, and cultural repression.

Why, it would be like Native Americans daring to assert that they have some rights. Or Kenyans wanting the British out. Or even the Chechens having enough of occupation.

[LiberalEsto]

30. Some Estonians consider themselves indigenous peoples

and have forged relationships with other threatened indigenous groups around the world, such as Native Americans.

I might add that the secret deal between Hitler and Stalin, known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, was used to carve out a sphere of influence for each of the two powers. The little nations in the middle got the screweing.

From Wikipedia:
"The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, named after the Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and the Nazi German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, officially the Treaty of Non-aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,[a] and also known as the Ribbentrop–Molotov Pact or Nazi–Soviet Pact, was a non-aggression pact signed in Moscow in the late hours of 23 August 1939.

The pact's publicly stated intentions were a guarantee of non-belligerence by either party towards the other, and a commitment that neither party would ally with or aid an enemy of the other party. This latter provision ensured that Germany would not support Japan in its undeclared war against the Soviet Union along the Manchurian-Mongolian border, ensuring that the Soviets won the Battles of Khalkhin Gol.[2]

In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a secret protocol that divided territories of Romania, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland into Nazi and Soviet "spheres of influence", anticipating potential "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries. Thereafter, Germany invaded Poland on 1 September 1939. After the Soviet-Japanese ceasefire agreement took effect on 16 September, Stalin ordered his own invasion of Poland on 17 September.[3] Part of southeastern (Karelia) and Salla region in Finland were annexed by the Soviet Union after the Winter War. This was followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertza region."

[blackspade]

4. A Russian self fulfilling prophesy.....

Unrest caused by an invasion leads to a bigger invasion.
I'm beginning to wonder if the Putin government is behind most of the unrest in Ukraine.
The Russians are the only ones benefiting from it at this point.

[rdharma]

10. You think the Russians are behind the neo-fascists in the Euromaidan?

Really?

[blackspade]

23. Probably not in the Euromaidan

In eastern Ukraine? Without a doubt.
It's about the endgame. Russia needs a spark to justify a further invasion of eastern Ukraine beyond the area that they have already annexed.
That is why I say 'probably not' in western Ukraine. There is not a logical endgame for US caused instability using fascist thugs.
The Russians on the other hand? The instability plays right into their geopolitical goals.

[rdharma]

25. No logical endgame for US (western capitalist) caused instability using fascist thugs? Really?

You're kidding aren't you?

[blackspade]

28. Lay it out for me then.

This is your chance to educate and convince me.

[rdharma]

98. I don't care to "educate" you.

I just want you to come back and admit that you were wrong when your prophesy of doom doesn't happen.

[blackspade]

99. And why not?

Or are you more interested in pontificating instead of conversing on the subject?

[rdharma]

100. When you talk about non-existent stuff...... I quickly lose interest. nt

[blackspade]

103. But we are not talking about my 'nonexistent stuff'

We are talking about yours.

So put up or shut up. Lay out your case as to what the US geopolitical endgame would be in overthrowing the Ukrainian government using RW thugs.

[EX500rider]

108. Because apparently Chile or something Nixon did...wait, THE CIA!!!!

All powerful!! nothing happens in the world that they don't cause you know...EVERY abrupt government change is brought about because the CIA in cahoots with Big Oil and the pod people and some neo-fascists (they don't know what that means but it sure sounds cool to say) made it happen!!

[blackspade]

109. The CIA and our corporate masters have done and continue to do....

horrific shit.
But that doesn't mean that every coup, revolution, or government change is engineered by the CIA/MIC.

If this guy has a viable argument that Ukraine is one of them, fine.
But I want to see a plausible scenario as to why it would be happening and what the endgame would be.
Thus far he has been unable to provide one.

[7962]

114. You've got it. IF theres no evidence, then the CIA hid it or altered it, therefore causing it

See how simple it is to figure out everything that way?

[uhnope]

24. You don't think a dictator named Putin leading a giant dictatorship is behind an invasion of Crimea?

[Tarheel_Dem]

7. Rec #5

[Tx4obama]

21. Kick. n/t

[africanadian]

35. Dneiper = Rubicon

Putin can take eastern Ukraine without war with the U.S. But if he crosses that river,

[Xolodno]

41. He could take it....but wont.

Ukraine needs the industrial east to help support it. Without it, its not a viable country. If Putin took the east, Poland may as well take the west and puts a NATO country on his door step...something he doesn't want. Best to leave Ukraine viable and as a buffer that will no doubt switch allegiances back and forth over time.

Ukraine used Crimea as a bargaining chip in the past...given Russia's need for it...they took it away as a bargaining chip during the confusion. I wouldn't be surprised if they had such a contingency plan already on the table if such a thing occurred.

[Xolodno]

38. If they were...

...they would have done it already and took the diplomatic hit in the chin only once.

Why invade more and risk even more diplomatic troubles? They could have easily plowed into Kiev to "restore the legitimate government from the coup" and be done with it.

Instead, they just yanked Crimea...an area that has been traditionally part of Russia when it was conquered from the Tatar Khanate. It only became part of Ukraine due to Khrushchev giving it to Ukraine (what some call his "adopted country&quot ...and one could even argue the legality of that.

Russia needs Crimea for the same reason the Russian Empire needed it. A warm water port to do trade (and in this case oil and gas). Give it 10 years time, Ukraine and Europe will recognize the area as Russian territory in some part of economic trade package (Russia did take Crimea without bloodshed...what does it say when their troops can just walk in and establish control and Ukrainian troops didn't mount so much as a stand off other than in their bases). The current acting Prime Minister of Ukraine has already acknowledged that they still need to do business with Russia...as soon as elections are held, Russia will probably recognize the new government. Right now, its plays into their favor not to.

Estonia is just posturing and ratcheting up the rhetoric for appearances. Yes there are Russian troops on the border...probably due to NATO having a bit of a buildup in Poland...tit for tat.

In the end, Ukraine will have its wish to warm up to the EU, it will only cost them Crimea, which I wonder if the populace thinks is an acceptable price. The USA is just going to have to bite the bullet and realize there is going to be more competition than they like to sell energy in Europe. Putin placed himself exactly where the US wanted him. No political saving face way out.

[LiberalEsto]

48. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am Estonian-American, with relatives in Estonia

I strongly disagree with your remark that Estonia "is just posturing and ratcheting up the rhetoric for appearances." My God, these people (and the Latvians, the Lithuanans, the Poles and Ukrainians) suffered terribly under the Soviet regime. They have every right to feel terrified that Putin may turn against them next.

[EX500rider]

63. "Russia needs Crimea for the same reason the Russian Empire needed it. A warm water port.." no

....Russia HAS several ports in her 200+ miles of the Black Sea coastline she already owns, including a naval base they have been working on for years.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

92. It's silly to think Russia *needs* Crimea.

Russia doesn't need Crimea, Russia wants Crimea.

The fact is, though, Crimea would not be contiguous with the rest of Russia and thus an annexed Crimea would stick out like a sore thumb.

And Russia's claim to Crimea as being Russia is based solely on an intense campaign of Russification combined with a forced eviction of the native people, the Tatars.

Crimea in no way is vital to Russia's survival. It's strictly a matter of greed on Russia's part.

[Laelth]

51. This is very important. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[treestar]

78. Estonia spies?

How horrible!

[marshall]

102. Not our problem

And thankfully we have a President who knows that.

[davidpdx]

105. I have a feeling that this will happen after the Crimea vote

If so, it will cause a bloody civil war in Ukraine.

The video posted yesterday from Vice TV had a good interview at the 12 minute mark (he interviews an old guy) that is very much worth watching. I agree with him completely:

[okaawhatever]

106. I like the old guy. Your head is for thinking, not just carrying our brain around. nt

[rdharma]

107. I like the ominous music sarting at 04:30 did you notice that?

Pure propaganda. Murdoch Jr. at his best!

[blackspade]

112. You do realize the music is playing in the background of the Ukrainian protesters too, right?

[7962]

115. Oh yeah, its Fox News that caused the invasion! nt

[davidpdx]

116. Wow, ignorance must be bliss

They did the same thing at the 5:15 mark. How about the propaganda at the 11 minute mark? Notice the difference in the protests, one is natural and the other is staged (literally). I wonder who is paying for that.

Don't be surprised when the whole thing goes terribly wrong.

[blackspade]

110. The old Soviet officer was right on.

"The head is for thinking and not just for carrying your brain"

A voice of reason in this shit storm.

[Cha]

111. Poor Putin.. Nasty West.