Russian Troops Seize Gas Plant Beyond Crimean Border, Ukraine Says

[Omaha Steve]

Source: NY Times

SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine — Tensions mounted on the eve of a secession referendum here in Crimea as helicopter-borne Russian forces made a provocative incursion just beyond the peninsula’s regional border to seize a natural gas terminal while American and European officials prepared sanctions to impose on Moscow as early as Monday.

The military operation by at least 80 troops landing on a slender sand bar just across Crimea’s northeast border seemed part of a broader effort to strengthen control over the peninsula before a vote Sunday on whether its majority Russian-speaking population wants to demand greater autonomy from Ukraine or break completely and join Russia. Whatever its tactical goals, it sent a defiant message to the United States and Europe and underscored that a diplomatic resolution to Russia’s recent takeover of Crimea remains elusive.

The raid came as American and European diplomats essentially forced Russia to veto a United Nations Security Council resolution declaring the Sunday referendum illegal. Western diplomats hoped the result would reinforce Russia’s growing international isolation. Russia cast the only vote against the resolution; even China, its traditional ally on the Council, did not vote with Moscow but abstained, an indication of its unease with Russia’s violation of another country’s sovereignty.

American and European officials worked through the day readying lists of Russians to penalize after the referendum, including possibly vital members of President Vladimir V. Putin’s inner circle. Among the Russians under consideration for Western sanctions, according to officials, are Sergei K. Shoigu, the defense minister; Aleksandr V. Bortnikov, director of the Federal Security Service; Nikolai P. Patrushev, the secretary of the security council; Sergei B. Ivanov and Vladislav Surkov, two of Mr. Putin’s closest and most powerful advisers; Dmitri O. Rogozin, a deputy prime minister; Aleksei Miller, the chief executive of Gazprom, the state energy giant; and Igor Sechin, head of the oil company Rosneft.

FULL story at link.


Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/world/europe/russian-troops-seize-gas-plant-beyond-crimean-border-ukraine-says.html?partner=EXCITE&ei=5043&_r=0

---

[davidpdx]

1. Oh, wait. It isn't about Crimean independence.

Drip...drip...drip. Eastern Ukraine better prepare because they are next.

[another_liberal]

2. That's a poke in the eye for the "interim government," no doubt about it.

I hope nobody gets too excited over this, though. Ukraine and Russia are now on the knife edge between war and peace. We should all be quite aware of what the former could mean for our own country, as well as the World in general.

[joshcryer]

4. Not really.

It helps bolster the claims that Putin is in fact not trying to protect anyone and it's about a resource grab.

[Duckhunter935]

6. that is correct

I foresee eastern Ukraine will be invaded next and the same people will make more excuses.

[another_liberal]

9. If that happens . . .

The time for "excuses" from anyone will have passed.

[joshcryer]

24. Will you be for it if it happens?

[RKP5637]

12. I fear that is his agenda. He is going to push and push for more. IMO it's not too

difficult to see the trend. If he has Crimea, he is going to feel greatly embolden.

My concern is we might get dragged into this, eventually, depending on the next steps and potential expansion of his grab.

[joshcryer]

14. Yep, been saying this. It's Aleksandr Dugin's roadmap.

The problem is that Putin is so damn unpredictable. Will he invade eastern Ukraine today or a month from now? Regardless it will happen. 39 trillion cubic feet of natural gas is waiting to be exploited.

[another_liberal]

7. Isn't this the transfer station which controls supplies of natural gas to most of Crimea?

I can see why the Russians might want to be sure that is secure and working properly. Still it is was risky provocation, no doubt about that.

[joshcryer]

13. Sure, but the gas can still be cut off.

Regardless Ukraine's government is probably being told by the State Department not to interfere with resources into Crimea because that will justify Putin's claims that they are being persecuted. So it matters little who the station is being manned by, it's just Putin flaunting his massive idiocy.

Ukraine could take it back at any time, but the Russians are probably being told to sabotage it if Ukraine comes to take it back, then blame the subsequent loss of gas to Crimea on Ukraine as "proof" of "persecution."

[geek tragedy]

16. Hilarious. Rt.com didn't tell you how to justify this yet? nt

[go west young man]

30. Heard a good joke from a Russian friend of mine today.

What's the difference between Russian propaganda and American propaganda? Russians know their being lied to.

[geek tragedy]

32. different joke. Russian friend visits a friend in New York

and his American friend tells him "we have free speech here. I can go out in Times Square and shout in public or post on the Internet from any cybercafe in the US that Bush and Obama were both imperialist bullies and corrupt criminals, and no one will arrest me."

Russian friend replies "we also have freedom of speech. I can go out in Red Square and shout in public or post on the Internet from any cybercafe in the Russia that Bush and Obama were both imperialist bullies and corrupt criminals, and no one will arrest me."

[go west young man]

38. I found your Russian invasion by the way.

It looks brutal.

[Cha]

54. So do smart Americans.. just not the Dupes for Putin.

[joshcryer]

3. I thought it wasn't about gas?

[Renew Deal]

5. The Russians don't understand sanctions

They understand action. If Europe and the US have a problem, they should come to Ukraine's defense. Otherwise, this will continue.

[another_liberal]

10. Send in the Marines, eh?

Have you signed up yet? I hear they are still looking for a few good men (and women).

[Renew Deal]

26. Are you suggesting that the US should intervene militarily?

[fujiyama]

25. Please clarify what you mean by "come to Ukraine's defense"...

[Renew Deal]

28. Military defense

If Europe and the US are serious about what they are saying, they should take military action. Sanctions are meaningless. I think the talk of sanctions looks week. Russia does what they want in the end. I think the EU and the US are unserious.

[RedFury]

59. Yeah right...

...as if the US is going to actually use military force against an enemy that, you know, can actually fight back -- and in their own backyard. A logistical nightmare for the US.

Pull the other one....its got bells on.

[DeSwiss]

53. ''The Russians don't understand sanctions''

How thoughtful of you. So you think it's a translation problem, I see. Well as for me, I think what the Russians don't have in this case is an existing military base in the Ukraine. That's how we do it.

If one of our client-states gets outta hand, we've got over 900+ military bases to choose from to kick their asses. Which is why we have these things all over the world so this kind of thing doesn't happen.

- Much.

[rdharma]

8. The interim Ukrainian government tried to cut off gas delivery to Crimea at that pump station.

The Russians simply seized the station and restored the gas supply.

[another_liberal]

11. That does seem to be the case.

The Russians responded to a provocation by the so-called "interim government" with an even greater, far more risky, counter provocation.

[rdharma]

15. A very dangerous game. nt

[another_liberal]

18. Yes . . .

The most dangerous there is.

[geek tragedy]

17. Thank you for giving us the Russian government's spin on this.

Do you really think you're fooling anyone?

[rdharma]

20. And what did I say that was incorrect?

Those are the facts. The interim Ukrainian government wanted to tweak the Russians before the referendum tomorrow..... and the Russians reacted. Pretty clear cut ....... isn't it?

[geek tragedy]

22. What's clear cut is that Russia invaded another country in thuggish fashion.

Just like his thug pig predecessors in the Soviet Union. Though his body count isn't in the millions like theirs was, nor does he have quite as flagrant of human rights abuses, including forced conscriptions of people in the Baltics just to send them to Chernobyl to get irradiated.

Of course, there are still some David Irving types who deny the USSR's abuses.

I hear they approve of Putin's move into Crimea.

[rdharma]

27. Oh? David Irving denies USSR's abuses?

If you say so, it must be true. You're probably more up on David Irving's thinking than I am.

[geek tragedy]

29. No, there are some who try to rehabilitate the USSR's legacy much like

David Irving tries to rehabilitate Nazi German's legacy.

Stuff like denying that people from the Baltics were conscripted for work at Chernobyl.

People who deny that are no different than David Irving. Probably complicit in human rights abuses themselves.

[EmilyAnne]

33. Lol!

Just wanted to say that you've become one of my favorite posters, especially on this topic.

[rdharma]

35. Fact is..... that people from the Balkans weren't specifically targeted for conscription .........

..... to work at Chernobyl.

Facts are facts. And I can recognize old cold war propaganda when I see it.

Oh, BTW ........ the Iraqis didn't really tear babies out of incubators and throw them on the floor to die. (That was Hill and Knowlton propaganda to get us involved in a war)

And Iraq didn't have WMDs when we invaded the country. (That was Office of Special Plans propaganda to get us to invade Iraq).

Just thought you'd like to know.

[geek tragedy]

19. Fuck it. Seize Putin's assets and put his ass on the travel ban list. nt

[rdharma]

21. I'll bet you long for the "good 'ol days" when Alexander Haig was Sec. of State. nt

[geek tragedy]

23. No, I just despise tyrants, and their sycophantic supporters nt

[go west young man]

37. So much hatred.

It must be eating you up inside. Can you specify who these sycophantic supporters are? Last time I checked at DU we were anti war and working for peaceful solutions to the worlds problems. Maybe some of us feel that Crimea has the right to it's own destiny just as you seem to feel that the thugs in Kiev's Maidan had the right to theirs.

It's no secret that all of East Ukraine sides with Russia. Paradoxically, what do you think was one of the first thing the new Ukranian ministry did when in power? They cut off Russian news sources to East Ukraine. That doesn't sound very democratic now does it? They're already telling them what "not " to think.

I see East Ukraine seperating on it's own accord with Russia's backing in less than a month. The reason....because they like Russia...they feel Russian and they believe the Maidan hooligans killed their own people. Here's a video of them capturing some Maidan hooligans and saying so.

These hooligans came to their city and tried to take over the ministry building. The East Ukranians took them prisoner and painted their faces green. Notice how these guys are all young punk types? That's because that is the main type of person who led the Maidan riots. Notice how the East Ukranians are all at least middle aged and much harder as men go. They are pissed because their lives have been turned upside down by these hooligans. They ruined their jobs and pensions. Do they have a right to be upset? Of course they do.

And no amount of you calling people sycophantic supporters or Putin apologists is gonna change that Geek. You name call all the time. Everyones got your MO. It's not effective and it's childish at best.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

43. What you're posting is revanchism,

and the justifications you're using are as old as the hills, old when the Dead Sea was sick. War and invasion have always been justified in these terms. The last place I ever expected to see this nonsense was here in DU.

[go west young man]

46. Far from it.

What I am posting is realism. Location and culture has everything to do with it. People like what they know. The East Ukranians like how things have been going for them up till now. What you are projecting for them is nonsense. How can you, sitting comfortably in the US at your computer know what they are thinking. Video doesn't lie. Here's another one from East Ukraine. Apparently they don't subscribe to your schtick.

The red hats are Maidan hooligans who came to East Ukraine from Kiev to take control of a ministerial building and we're overrun and captured by Pro Russian East Ukranians.

[Comrade Grumpy]

52. That's some heavy duty street fighting going on.

Looks likes those guys from the Maidan should have stayed home. The locals don't seem very friendly toward them.

[go west young man]

56. Notice how all the maiden guys

fit the profile of street hooligans, punk types...whereas the Russians are mostly middle aged and older. IF you pay attention to all the people who were killed in Maidan by snipers none of them were these types of street hooligans. The people that were killed by snipers in Maidan were middle aged as well..mostly people from the West who came late to the overall protests. The fact that no hooligans were sniped red lends creedence to the theory of the hooligans doing the sniping and using the deaths of the people from the West for their own gain. This Russian crowd believes that's what happened.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

57. "Maidan hooligans"

Cuts no ice with me. You want to post that sort of ethnocentric stuff, take it to another site, not DU. War is NOT justified by people within a country fighting each other over their political future, even if that fighting takes physical form, and you, sitting wherever you're sitting, have no way of knowing who started what and over what they're really fighting.
The only point you, as an outside observer, need concern yourself with is the very simple one that Putin has violated international law and needs to get out of Crimea. That's all we, as outsiders, can say.
Putin bringing up Russian "compatriots" doesn't even rise to the level of the case of annexation of Hawaii that Grover Cleveland rejected (which decision was, of course, reversed by Mckinley, he of the Spanish-American War). At least in the Hawaii case the ones trying to invoke "protection" were actually American citizens. Cleveland let them have it with both barrels: http://www.hawaii-nation.org/cleveland.html

That's an example to emulate. Putin? Not so much.

[go west young man]

58. Man are you off base.

And where and why you bring up a Hawaiian analogy I don't know. That weirdness alone throws your argument into turmoil.

Pay attention to the crowds in the videos I posted. That is a diverse crowd representing a broad swath of Ukranians from East Ukraine. Now look at the Maidan hooligans. They are the same "types" of hooligans that you see in violent skin head/soccer riot videos, hence the reason the maidan protests turned so violent early on. Face up to whats right in front of you....they are and always were hooligans wanting a right wing nationalist state. Their extreme nationalists and they (sniped) killed their own people in Maidan to get the international community to join their cause. The BBC has reported seeing them doing the sniping. You buy into it. I don't. Simple as that.

As far as DU goes...if you can't handle different opinions..then maybe you should grow thicker skin.

[Cha]

55. Well, we have more than a few around here now.. pimping for Putin and

deflecting when called on it.

[NuclearDem]

47. You're still here?

Figures. A homophobic imperialist bastard needs someone to excuse away his actions, and there you are.

Pathetic.

[go west young man]

51. I've been here since 2004, a full 6 years before you arrived on the DU posting board.

Don't worry I'm not going anywhere. I will keep posting what I believe to be true. I encourage you to do the same so we can hold debates on merit rather than name calling and labeling. I get called all kinds of things. It doesn't effect me in the least and I type that with a smile on my face. Peace.



Computer freezing led to multiple postings of the same post. Sorry about that.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

31. Did the Crimea ever get the independent opportunity to decide if they wanted to be part of

the new country, the Ukraine? Saying that actions by Russia to infringe the sovereignty of the Ukraine means nothing if this assemblage of former Soviet people has never been sovereign over the will of the people of the various parts of the Ukraine. I know the Wolf Blitzer drumbeat against Putin goes almost unopposed in the media (and I'm not a fan of Putin myself) but I wonder if there isn't a much better reason to take a step back and consider what the people want, something the U.S. government preaches but often doesn't seem to get when it's in its own interest to invade another country. Certainty, a Russian claim to the Crimea makes more sense than an American claim to a right to invade Iraq, no matter how loud the U.S. government now squawks at Russia in the U.N. Security Council. The fact is, I don't know enough about the history of this region to make the easy assumption that a newly fabricated sovereignty of the Ukraine is entitled to act like a country over all the people in the old Soviet Republic, just because we say it can even if a portion of its people don't want to be part of that country.

[geek tragedy]

34. Russian troops will be 'protecting' the voting places where people

will be deciding whether to be annexed to Russia and be ruled from Moscow.

Does that strike you as a legitimate process?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

36. I would prefer that UN assets be present

but it's pretty ridiculous to pretend that the enormous numbers of Russian speakers in parts of the Ukraine don't have extremely close ties to Russia. Only a country with no respect for the world or for world history like the media brasinwashed people in the U.S. would ignore these realities. What I'm saying is that even without Putin's meddling, we know that parts of the Ukraine have long considered themselves to be Russian, and I admit to being as damnably ignorant of this part of the world as the average dumb and arrogant American.

[Igel]

40. It's like saying something a bit different and less obvious.

That it would be ridiculous to pretend that the enormous numbers of English speakers in part of North America didn't have extreme close ties to England.

The Crimeans could have opted to stay with Russia in 1992. They opted to stay with Ukraine, albeit through elected representatives.

Distinguish between language and culture and ethnicity. It's a commonplace in US politics to merge them, mostly because it's politically convenient for demagoguery and it makes thinking easier and less onerous. but the three things really are different. The Irish speak English, but aren't English in culture or ethnicity.

[go west young man]

42. Except that the US and UK are 4000 miles apart

and separated by the Atlantic Ocean. A better analogy might be Mexico and Texas. If all the Mexicans in Texas decided to take Texas and make it a part of Mexico as they are the predominant people there and wanted to decide their own destiny by joining Mexico...would the US fight them for Texas or let it go? Me thinks the US would fight for Texas regardless of what the Mexicans decided. We wouldn't give up all that oil and money. That's where the hypocrisy lies. East Ukraine is as Russian as Russia...the US just chooses to ignore this in our propaganda.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

45. Very, very different

I don't think Americans can easily know what it's like to have a nation. America is more of an ideology than a nation. Americans feel no ties to England or the English crown. They feel no continuity with centuries of British history. They feel a tie to the constitutional republic that rules over a certain territory. It's the only one they've known. It's an idea more than a culture. A Frenchman belongs to a nation that has seen Kings and Queens, emperors, and five Republics with five Constitutions. They belong to the language, culture and territory through centuries of history and upheaval. I'm sure a Russian feels close ties to the Russia of the Czar, of the communists, and of Putin, whether or not they have despised these governments. From what I've read, the Crimea has always been Russian, except for its most recent history. From what I understand, many Ukrainians feel Russian and think like Russians and no imaginary border separating them as a former Soviet Republic can change that. To be Russian, like being French or English is an entire gestalt that goes back through centuries of history.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

41. The UN exists to adjudicate these disputes

Peacefully. There is no justification for marching into another country just because you object to their new gov't.
Anyway, the real cost to Russia for these actions will be a swift substitution of other energy sources than their oil and gas. What will they do when they have no customers?

[go west young man]

44. They have plenty of customers in Eurasia, the Far East,

Africa and South America and they have been realigning their oil industry so it isn't so dependent on the Euro dollars. Having said that they have North and South Stream now bypassing Ukraine and they currently supply 35% of Europe's gas and oil needs. It will take years for the US to frack the shit out of West Ukraine and Poland. Russia holds the oil cards and can afford to withhold oil from Europe if they need to. Germany is Russia's biggest oil partner in Europe and if Russia pulled the plug on them all of Europe would suffer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/does-russian-oil-trump-possible-european-sanctions/


And guess who's doing the initial fracking in Poland? None other than Halliburton and their good friend Dick Cheney. Newly fracked Europe is gonna be a hoot.

[Igel]

39. Sort of.

They had a referendum in 1991 to restore autonomy and along the way declared their independence.

The next year the parliament revised it a bit and also added a line saying that they were part of Ukraine.

It wasn't like they were treated as chattel. And the first referendum--and parliament's decision--were made on terms rather different than those today in the Crimea.

[ripcord]

48. I did notice one thing

Crimea remaining as part of Ukraine wasn't a choice of the referendum.