U.S. Marine faces boot for anti-Obama Facebook posts

[Julian Englis]

Source: USA Today

A Marine sergeant who started a Facebook group that is openly critical of President Obama and posted comments saying he will not follow the unlawful orders of the commander in chief is facing possible dismissal from the Corps.

The Marines on Wednesday told Sgt. Gary Stein — a Camp Pendleton Marine who started the Facebook page called Armed Forces Tea Party — that he is in violation of Pentagon policy barring troops from political activities.

Stein, a nine-year member of the Corps, said he started the page to encourage fellow service members to exercise their free speech rights. He has also criticized U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta for his comments on Syria.

The Marine Corps said in a statement that Stein's commanding officer ordered a preliminary inquiry on March 8 after receiving allegations that Stein posted the political statements violating the Pentagon's directives.


Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/story/2012-03-22/marine-obama-facebook-free-speech/53697996/1

[SHRED]

1. The military is 100% government including their health care

And this guy is in the Tea Party?


--

[Julian Englis]

2. Cognitive dissonance. n/t

[lonestarnot]

11. He apparently tinks he is a teapot. Teapots don't follow orders.

[hatrack]

32. Maybe he's just waiting for someone who'll tip him over and pour him out?

[FarPoint]

20. If you can't serve at the pleasure of the President

Then out ya go!

[Blue_Tires]

29. I live in a Navy town, and holy damn would you be shocked...

most of the military teabaggers are retired as opposed to active duty, but still...

[nanabugg]

58. It's not for his FB post, it's for his insubordination and encouragement of mutiny.

Just think if anyone in the military had done this during Viet Nam...oh, they did...and remember how those who are now Tea Party treated theml.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. To the best of my knowledge, obeying orders is not discretionary.

[AlbertCat]

9. To the best of my knowledge, obeying orders is not discretionary.

Free speech issues in the Marines????

Of course soldiers have the right to free speech, But... well, I've never been in the military, but isn't there a chain of command, a procedure for everything? If one wants to question an order or criticize a commanding officer, there is a correct procedure, is there not? I'm sure starting a Facebook page is not part of it. Where does this Sergeant think he is?

Teabaggers really really just do not think... at all!

Teabaggers make lousy soldiers, polititians, citizens.... anything...

[zipplewrath]

10. Semantics

One has a duty to disobey "unlawful" orders. It is a bit of a catch 22 for anyone. By the time anyone agrees with you that it was an "unlawful" order, it could be YEARS later. However, this really isn't how the game is suppose to be played. If you believe you have been given an unlawful order, you can run it up the chain of command. Otherwise you bear the burden of proving it was unlawful, and suffering the consequences if ultimately it is decided you were wrong.


Michael New found this out the hard way. One should really consider whether they can "follow the order" and challenge it after the fact, or whether they actually have no other option than to disobey the order. Generally, a jury won't decide if the order was lawful or not, a military judge will.

[freshwest]

22. From the link. ' Powered by Military VA Loan.' Meaning what?

[nxylas]

26. Yes, but let's not forget why he thinks his orders are unlawful

There's a difference between what New did, disobeying an order because he thought that it violated laws about American solders being placed under foreign command (even if he was wrong), and disobeying orders based on a paranoid delusion that the President was born in Kenya, that has not a shred of real evidence to support it.

[zbdent]

27. His claim is that he is not following illegal orders.

However, I believe that the burden of proof is on him to prove an "illegal order" from Obama.

I believe, with no proof at this time, that he is auditioning for Faux.

[Joe Bacon]

4. Countdown to when this fool is defended by Fox News

10, 9, 8, 7...

[SamG]

5. Let this tea bagger marine find out

what it's like not to have a job, not to be paid by the federal government, what it's like not to have medical benefits.

[FarPoint]

21. Bingo

Yet he will never see the wrongs of his decision. He will blame Democrats anyway.

[cstanleytech]

6. I thought that when you joined up you willing gave up alot of your rights including free speech?

Regardless though he should clearly be booted out with a dishonorable discharge.

[PavePusher]

33. Not at all.

Some Rights become more limited, but you do not "give them up". I really don't know why this meme still exists.

[cstanleytech]

44. No, if you dont have the full rights you had before then your giving some of your rights up.

[Old Troop]

47. You don't give them up, but many can be circumscribed to ensure

good order and discipline. Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice specifically prohibits officers from disparaging members of the executive branch, governors and other named officials
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/888. This allows criminal prosecution for such actions. For enlisted members, other regulations and laws apply. The main point of such regulations is not to protect the sensibilities of the offended officials, but to preclude the ability of the officer corps to engage in activities that may allow a coup to take place.

[BeGoodDoGood]

7. If he is just an E-5 sergeant after nine years...

He is not exactly setting the world on fire in his career.

Walt

[PavePusher]

34. But he's not particularly dragging his feet either.

Promotion rates depend on many variable factors. There are a lot of E-5's in the military with 9-15 or more years of service. Heck, I didn't even make E-5 until I'd been in 9 years. (I made up for my laziness on my next two promotions.)

[BeGoodDoGood]

56. Really.

I made E-4 in two years and E-5 in 3 years.

[PavePusher]

57. Congrats to you.

I'm assuming, by your avatar, that you're in the Marine Corps. Things work differently in the Air Force. That is not a judgement call on either service, merely a statement of fact. We have lots of people that get a line # for E-5 in under 4 years.

It also varies greatly by MOS/AFSC. Some jobs don't allow time for the little extras that make for a faster promotion rate. Some peope have outside interests that don't help their promotion speed.

Also note that speed of rank accession does not always correlate with actual job performance or leadership skill.

[JonLP24]

60. Probably different in the Marines

in the Army, you had to rack up points and it varied how much you needed depending on your MOS. Myself, I never took correspondence courses which was the best way to rack up needed points. Meaning there was no way I would make E-5 in 3 years. E-4 is a different story, promoted by your commander with recommendations from Platoon Sergeant. I made that in 2.

[BeGoodDoGood]

62. When I was Enlisted

When I was enlisted the climate was totally different. My warrant to corporal is dated 1 November 1975 and my warrant to sergeant is dated 1 January 1977. My PEBD was 15 October 1973. I went to PI on 12 November, so a little over 3 years to E-5.

In the Marine Corps (I guess it hasn't changed) you generate Cutting Scores based on your profiency and conduct marks; those are based on a 5 point scale. 5.0/5.0 would be perfect. 4.6/4.5 (pro/con) would be pretty good. 4.0 was a low score. Then they weighted the Cutting Score for marksmanship score, Physical Fitness Score and some other stuff. Then HQMC publishes the Cutting Score for that promotion period. If your CS is higher than that, you get promoted. Time in Grade and Time in Service also figure in. I got promoted to both E-4 and E-5 the first time I had TIG and TIS. I didn't have any meritorious promotions.

Walt

[BeGoodDoGood]

63. Wow

What you seem to be saying is that one soldier will get paid more than another soldier based on MOS. That's always been a military bug-a-boo. Everyone of the same rank has the same base pay whether they be a machine gunner or admin clerk or avionics tech. In the Marines (maybe it's changed) every E-3 (for instance) competes against the same cutting score. And the CS is generated the same way for every Marine.

At reenlistment time, I believe the Marine Corps incents with bonuses based on MOS, so maybe the effect is the same. I would -never- say that the Marines do things better than the Army.

Walt

[JonLP24]

64. You were paid the same as other E-5's if you were an E-5. Though you got paid more the longer you

were in, IIRC. In the Army, you had to reach a certain amount of points to achieve a rank of E-5 and E-6(I believe, I know promotions to E-7 came from way higher up). That varied depending on your MOS. At the time for 88M, you only needed 350 points. Other jobs, likely more difficult jobs required more points(I remember one that required 700 but I forget what MOS that was). But once you were an E-5, you got paid the same as other E-5s unless you were in the Army longer.

I was 88M but like I said, I never took correspondence courses. I think you only got a max of 50 for a perfect PT score(300) and 50 max for weapons qualifying. You also were tallied points for ribbons and awards you might have.

[JonLP24]

65. In case you wouldn't see a third edit

I now remember they scrapped this point system(at-least in my unit) shortly before I got out. You also received points for an interview(they had another word they called these things that I forgot) but they scrapped it and just changed the board process to "GO" and "NO GO".

[Old Troop]

48. Good point. In the Army, the chain of command

would probably be looking to separate him because he hadn't been promoted.

[BeGoodDoGood]

8. People Talk Politics in the Military

But they keep it in the group.

Lord, the stuff I would say about that asshole Reagan.

Walt

[sarge43]

12. Been in nine years and didn't figure out there is no such thing as free speech rights in the service

His DI should have made that pretty clear as soon as he was off the bus.

Idiot.

[Major Hogwash]

30. No shit.

I wonder how many times he was deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan while Bush was in the White House.
You just know that is the type of thing that will be used now to determine what his true agenda is for calling for "free speech" from fellow Marines during an election year.

If he's lucky, they'll boot him out and let him go wander.
If he's not, they may make him change his mind about using Facebook awful mighty fast.

[PavePusher]

35. There certainly is free speech in the military...

but with more limitations than in Civilian life.

[sarge43]

36. Right. If my superiors think I said something out of line, I'm going to win that urine exchange?

A defining moment in my military career: Talking with my then commander (good man, not a scalp hunter) about disciplinary actions (I was the base personnel section point and saw all of them). I asked him that if all other things were equal in a "he said so" and "he said no" circumstance, who would he flipped the coin for. His answer: The higher rank. Rank not only has privilages; it has a hell of a lot of authority.

I'll give you that in private (not that there's much of that), one can be somewhat less guarded, but on the whole best to keep it zipped. Can't hang you for what you're thinking.

And there's always old Art 134 "Whatever we say it is."

[PavePusher]

38. This is why digital recorders are a good thing.

I found that out the hard way, by not having one when I was illegally threatened with retribution for doing my job correctly.

Lesson learned.

[sarge43]

39. Yup. No doubt saved a few hindquarters.

However, be careful. Some things shouldn't be on permanent file. What happens in the hutch, stays in the hutch.

[PavePusher]

45. Oh yeah. I use it very judiciously.

I have not had to actually present any recordings as evidence to protect myself or my Airmen, and anything that doesn't need to be used gets wiped. Fortunately the circumstances where it might even be needed are pretty rare indeed. And the one incident that taught me my lesson was many moons ago. Most of those folks long since retired. Never used in social situations, only formal duty ones where disciplinary action might be a result, and always with one or more witnesses on hand.

[sarge43]

46. Sounds like you have the drill squared away.

Wish I'd had one of those.

[PavePusher]

52. Modern technology has many approriate uses.

And many inappropriate ones. The trick is figuring out which is which, before you get fried.

[sarge43]

53. And Sgt Stein chose poorly. n/t

[Overseas]

13. How can they do that when they've been airing Rush Limbaugh on Armed Forces Radio for so long?

He's just succumbed to right wing propaganda they've allowed to poison our troops.

[freshwest]

23. +1,000

[sinkingfeeling]

14. Good. n/t

[Ian David]

15. This is what happens when American Forces Radio broadcasts Limbaugh. n/t

[apnu]

16. Good, I hope he gets a dishonorable discharge.

The President of the United States is his commanding officer. In military culture you don't diss your commanders, ever. There are ways to bitch in the military, but that's not one of them. His group represents a break in the chain of command and depression of morale which will lead to service members dying.

What an idiot, Marines should be better than that.

[atreides1]

19. Not likely

The worst he could get is a General Discharge under Honorable Conditions...unless he does something really stupid between now and the time that he's processed for separation!

And from just what I've read, he's totally capable of doing something stupid!

[sarge43]

40. That's my call unless he already has a tidy disciplinary file built up.

Yeah, here's hoping he gives in to his inner idiot

[Old Troop]

49. I'd love to see his file although I bet he gets an honorable

but an RE3 reenlistment code on his DD214 so he can never go back into any service.

[Sirveri]

55. RE3 is waiverable, RE4 is not

RE3 also typically has added codes like 3H would be a hardship discharge.

[Old Troop]

66. Thanks for the correction. It's been 25 years since I was

in recruiting.

[JonLP24]

61. You pretty much have to commit rape, murder, or desertion to get a dishonarable these days

[Sirveri]

54. He could request a court martial, but even that I doubt would do it.

He hasn't really done enough to warrant it and they'd likely just boot him out with a OTH and a RE4

[obxhead]

17. I don't understand.

He'll be following the same fucking orders his hero GWB would have given. The mission is unchanged and the war was started by his hero.

He wasn't drafted.

He shouldn't be kicked out. He should walk point every fucking day until he finishes his enlistment.

[freshwest]

24. Agree with all but the last paragraph. Might get shot.

[Fla Dem]

18. Once out of the military, look for this guy to be a spotlighted Tea Potty candidate! n/t

[freshwest]

25. 100% chance of that!

[sarge43]

41. Nah, he's just another useful idiot. He'll be forgotten by the next news cycle.

Pvt New of beloved memory was supposed to be the great martyred hope. I imagine he's a stock boy at a Piggly Wiggly now.

Someone once said about power players: They have allies, aides and advisories, no one else. Stein is none of these.

[zbdent]

28. He has the right to be punished in the same manner as any military person who

criticized George W. Bush ...

[Lasher]

31. I smell the Oath Keepers

[appleannie1]

37. He should have read the Military Code. Rule- Respect for your Commander in Chief

[otohara]

42. People Got Arrested During Bush

not just thrown out of an event, but arrested.

What's his beef, pulled out of Iraq too soon? Michele & Jill haven't found him a job yet?

[Dragonbreathp9d]

43. As long as it was not hateful, racist, or talked about assassination

I don't see a problem with this. I believe the military still has freedom of speech. And what if he were referring NDAA? I'll defend him

[atreides1]

59. Wrong

The military is run under a totally different set of rules...freedom of speech only goes as long as it does not interfere with discipline and well being of the unit!

It doesn't matter what he may refer to, as a non-commisioned officer he knows and should understand the standards that have been set for all military personnel...if he doesn't agree with it then he can get out, take off the uniform, and become the Marine version of Allen West!

[Dragonbreathp9d]

67. I know what the rules are- doesn't mean I still don't support him

Think of how much we would have liked to hear men and women in uniform doing the same under Bush. I may not agree with him but I'll still support him

[Another Bill C.]

50. I learned in Boot Camp 55 years ago that

there's very little freedom of speech in the military. I don't think it's changed much.

"Article 134, known as the catch-all article, makes criminal those acts of speech that are prejudicial to good order and discipline or that could bring discredit upon the Armed Forces. This is pretty broad and explains why it is often called the catch-all article. If your chain of command thinks your political involvement has affected your unit or the military, you could be punished under this article.

"The UCMJ is not the only thing you need to worry about. If you are a noncommissioned officer, warrant officer or an officer, and attempt to influence other members of the military to vote because of your military authority, then you will be facing five years in prison under 18 USC 609.

"Now that you have brushed up on some key laws, you could also run afoul of some very restrictive regulations. DoD Directive 1344.10 bans active-duty service members from running for office, participating in partisan political management, or campaigns (many exceptions are applicable)."

http://www.armytimes.com/community/ask_lawyer/military_askthelawyer_070827w/

[Julian Englis]

51. While this is very serious, The Onion's take on this is very hilarious

"That’s it! I’m defriending the Pentagon as we speak."

More at: http://www.theonion.com/articles/marine-faces-discharge-for-antiobama-facebook-post,27718/