Scalia Says Court Can’t Be Bothered To Read Obamacare: ‘You Really Want Us To Go Through These 2,700
Source: Think Progress
Scalia Says Court Cant Be Bothered To Read Obamacare: You Really Want Us To Go Through These 2,700 Pages?
By Amanda Peterson Beadle on Mar 28, 2012 at 4:51 pm
During the last day of Supreme Court hearings about the Affordable Care Act, the justices covered whether or not the entire law could stand if the individual mandate was struck down and the laws expansion of Medicaid. But Justice Antonin Scalia seemed surprised that someone would have expected the justices to read the text of the health care reform law before the hearings:
JUSTICE SCALIA: Mr. Kneedler, what happened to the Eighth Amendment? You really want us to go through these 2,700 pages? (Laughter.) And do you really expect the Court to do that? Or do you expect us to to give this function to our law clerks? Is this not totally unrealistic? That we are going to go through this enormous bill item by item and decide each one?
Read more: http://thinkprogress.org/special/2012/03/28/454099/scalia-says-court-cant-be-bothered-to-read-obamacare-you-really-want-us-to-go-through-these-2700-pages/
HubertHeaver
(2,522 posts)CAPHAVOC
(1,138 posts)Why start now? People might find out what is in it. It would ruin the surprise in 2015.
truthisfreedom
(23,154 posts)FarPoint
(12,434 posts)He's an arrogant, impotent old man....what a waste of an honorable chair. Makes a mockery of the position.
Land Shark
(6,346 posts)One of the justices pointed that out in a very funny retort to the quote in the OP, saying that Scalia's clerks, at least, should have no problem reading all those pages since as textualists it is the only thing they generally like to read (especially the text of the Constitution).
FarPoint
(12,434 posts)Scalia and Thomas....both just empty robes.Apparently common knowledge on the Hill. I'm delusional at times.
nanabugg
(2,198 posts)Law clerks will only find what they are looking for...predetermined.
harun
(11,348 posts)Repukes complain about the length. Bills are in HUGE font and HUGE margins. I read about 90% of it in an hour.
Stop repeating RW propaganda and stop calling it Obamacare.
CAPHAVOC
(1,138 posts)2000 pages in an hour. Whoa! That is 33 pages a minute and 2 pages a second. Call Guiness quick it is a World Record!
Obama calls it Obamacare why should I not? It is the nickname for it. Have you read the 10,000 pages of regulations so far written. And 20,000 more to come? Rube Goldberg could not even compete with this scheme. Is Medicare for all a "RW" propaganda?
harun
(11,348 posts)onenote
(42,753 posts)Last edited Fri Mar 30, 2012, 01:21 AM - Edit history (1)
in an hour and understood what you were reading. None.Zilch. Nada.
I just finished reading a 26 page FCC Reform bill (HR 3309). Same font, margins, number of lines as the ACA. I had already read an earlier version of the bill a few days ago. It still took me 20 minutes to go through the current version reading it carefully enough to see if there were significant changes in the law. The ACA is a much more technical and dense bit of legislation and its ridiculous to claim you "read" it in an hour.
harun
(11,348 posts)onenote
(42,753 posts)I didn't miss it at all.
If the point was that there is something wrong with the Justices acknowledging that they haven't read the entire ACA (something that Justices other than Scalia admitted), then you are the one missing the point. There was no reason for any of the Justices to read through the entire bill since the one point that the parties to the litigation agreed on was that whether the rest of the law should be allowed to remain in effect (i.e., should be deemed to be "severable" from the individual mandate) or should be struck down (i.e., be deemed not to be severable) did not require a separate evaluation of each provision in the law.
None of the legal arguments presented in the case required anyone to read the entire statute.
CAPHAVOC
(1,138 posts)She could tell them all what is in it.
burrowowl
(17,645 posts)what the clerks are for: to read it!
Response to onenote (Reply #132)
Herlong This message was self-deleted by its author.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)I could read it all in a few hrs. Hire me, Fat Tony, since you don't know how to read.
onenote
(42,753 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 2, 2012, 11:53 AM - Edit history (1)
Even folks who are experienced at reading legislation will tell you that to read and comprehend most pieces of legislation you need to allocate more than a couple of minutes per page. Some of the staffers I know on the Hill who had to review the ACA told me it took them well over a week to work their way through it.
For example, if you "read" the following section (which is not atypical of what is in the ACA), you wouldn't understand it unless you also dug out and read the provisions of law cross referenced and amended by this section. Its a daunting task.
SEC. 1562. CONFORMING AMENDMENTS.
(a) Applicability- Section 2735 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 300gg-21), as so redesignated by section 1001(4), is amended--
(1) by striking subsection (a);
(2) in subsection (b)--
(A) in paragraph (1), by striking 1 through 3 and inserting 1 and 2; and
(B) in paragraph (2)--
(i) in subparagraph (A), by striking subparagraph (D) and inserting subparagraph (D) or (E);
(ii) by striking 1 through 3 and inserting 1 and 2; and
(iii) by adding at the end the following:
(E) ELECTION NOT APPLICABLE- The election described in subparagraph (A) shall not be available with respect to the provisions of subpart 1.;
(3) in subsection (c), by striking 1 through 3 shall not apply to any group and inserting 1 and 2 shall not apply to any individual coverage or any group; and
(4) in subsection (d)--
(A) in paragraph (1), by striking 1 through 3 shall not apply to any group and inserting 1 and 2 shall not apply to any individual coverage or any group;
(B) in paragraph (2)--
(i) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by striking 1 through 3 shall not apply to any group and inserting 1 and 2 shall not apply to any individual coverage or any group; and
(ii) in subparagraph (C), by inserting or, with respect to individual coverage, under any health insurance coverage maintained by the same health insurance issuer; and
(C) in paragraph (3), by striking any group and inserting any individual coverage or any group.
(b) Definitions- Section 2791(d) of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 300gg-91(d)) is amended by adding at the end the following:
(20) QUALIFIED HEALTH PLAN- The term qualified health plan has the meaning given such term in section 1301(a) of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.
(21) EXCHANGE- The term Exchange means an American Health Benefit Exchange established under section 1311 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act..
(c) Technical and Conforming Amendments- Title XXVII of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 300gg et seq.) is amended--
(1) in section 2704 (42 U.S.C. 300gg), as so redesignated by section 1201(2)--
(A) in subsection (c)--
(i) in paragraph (2), by striking group health plan each place that such term appears and inserting group or individual health plan; and
(ii) in paragraph (3)--
(I) by striking group health insurance each place that such term appears and inserting group or individual health insurance; and
(II) in subparagraph (D), by striking small or large and inserting individual or group;
(B) in subsection (d), by striking group health insurance each place that such term appears and inserting group or individual health insurance; and
(C) in subsection (e)(1)(A), by striking group health insurance and inserting group or individual health insurance;
(2) by striking the second heading for subpart 2 of part A (relating to other requirements);
(3) in section 2725 (42 U.S.C. 300gg-4), as so redesignated by section 1001(2)--
(A) in subsection (a), by striking health insurance issuer offering group health insurance coverage and inserting health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage;
(B) in subsection (b)--
(i) by striking health insurance issuer offering group health insurance coverage in connection with a group health plan in the matter preceding paragraph (1) and inserting health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage; and
(ii) in paragraph (1), by striking plan and inserting plan or coverage;
(C) in subsection (c)--
(i) in paragraph (2), by striking group health insurance coverage offered by a health insurance issuer and inserting health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage; and
(ii) in paragraph (3), by striking issuer and inserting health insurance issuer; and
(D) in subsection (e), by striking health insurance issuer offering group health insurance coverage and inserting health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage;
(4) in section 2726 (42 U.S.C. 300gg-5), as so redesignated by section 1001(2)--
(A) in subsection (a), by striking (or health insurance coverage offered in connection with such a plan) each place that such term appears and inserting or a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage;
(B) in subsection (b), by striking (or health insurance coverage offered in connection with such a plan) each place that such term appears and inserting or a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage; and
(C) in subsection (c)--
(i) in paragraph (1), by striking (and group health insurance coverage offered in connection with a group health plan) and inserting and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage;
(ii) in paragraph (2), by striking (or health insurance coverage offered in connection with such a plan) each place that such term appears and inserting or a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage;
(5) in section 2727 (42 U.S.C. 300gg-6), as so redesignated by section 1001(2), by striking health insurance issuers providing health insurance coverage in connection with group health plans and inserting and health insurance issuers offering group or individual health insurance coverage;
(6) in section 2728 (42 U.S.C. 300gg-7), as so redesignated by section 1001(2)--
(A) in subsection (a), by striking health insurance coverage offered in connection with such plan and inserting individual health insurance coverage;
(B) in subsection (b)--
(i) in paragraph (1), by striking or a health insurance issuer that provides health insurance coverage in connection with a group health plan and inserting or a health insurance issuer that offers group or individual health insurance coverage;
(ii) in paragraph (2), by striking health insurance coverage offered in connection with the plan and inserting individual health insurance coverage; and
(iii) in paragraph (3), by striking health insurance coverage offered by an issuer in connection with such plan and inserting individual health insurance coverage;
(C) in subsection (c), by striking health insurance issuer providing health insurance coverage in connection with a group health plan and inserting health insurance issuer that offers group or individual health insurance coverage; and
(D) in subsection (e)(1), by striking health insurance coverage offered in connection with such a plan and inserting individual health insurance coverage;
(7) by striking the heading for subpart 3;
(8) in section 2731 (42 U.S.C. 300gg-11), as so redesignated by section 1001(3)--
(A) by striking the section heading and all that follows through subsection (b);
(B) in subsection (c)--
(i) in paragraph (1)--
(I) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by striking small group and inserting group and individual; and
(II) in subparagraph (B)--
(aa) in the matter preceding clause (i), by inserting and individuals after employers;
(bb) in clause (i), by inserting or any additional individuals after additional groups; and
(cc) in clause (ii), by striking without regard to the claims experience of those employers and their employees (and their dependents) or any health status-related factor relating to such and inserting and individuals without regard to the claims experience of those individuals, employers and their employees (and their dependents) or any health status-related factor relating to such individuals; and
(ii) in paragraph (2), by striking small group and inserting group or individual;
(C) in subsection (d)--
(i) by striking small group each place that such appears and inserting group or individual; and
(ii) in paragraph (1)(B)--
(I) by striking all employers and inserting all employers and individuals;
(II) by striking those employers and inserting those individuals, employers; and
(III) by striking such employees and inserting such individuals, employees;
(D) by striking subsection (e);
(E) by striking subsection (f); and
(F) by transferring such section (as amended by this paragraph) to appear at the end of section 2702 (as added by section 1001(4));
(9) in section 2732 (42 U.S.C. 300gg-12), as so redesignated by section 1001(3)--
(A) by striking the section heading and all that follows through subsection (a);
(B) in subsection (b)--
(i) in the matter preceding paragraph (1), by striking group health plan in the small or large group market and inserting health insurance coverage offered in the group or individual market;
(ii) in paragraph (1), by inserting , or individual, as applicable, after plan sponsor;
(iii) in paragraph (2), by inserting , or individual, as applicable, after plan sponsor; and
(iv) by striking paragraph (3) and inserting the following:
(3) VIOLATION OF PARTICIPATION OR CONTRIBUTION RATES- In the case of a group health plan, the plan sponsor has failed to comply with a material plan provision relating to employer contribution or group participation rules, pursuant to applicable State law.;
(C) in subsection (c)--
(i) in paragraph (1)--
(I) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by striking group health insurance coverage offered in the small or large group market and inserting group or individual health insurance coverage;
(II) in subparagraph (A), by inserting or individual, as applicable, after plan sponsor;
(III) in subparagraph (B)--
(aa) by inserting or individual, as applicable, after plan sponsor; and
(bb) by inserting or individual health insurance coverage; and
(IV) in subparagraph (C), by inserting or individuals, as applicable, after those sponsors; and
(ii) in paragraph (2)(A)--
(I) in the matter preceding clause (i), by striking small group market or the large group market, or both markets, and inserting individual or group market, or all markets,; and
(II) in clause (i), by inserting or individual, as applicable, after plan sponsor; and
(D) by transferring such section (as amended by this paragraph) to appear at the end of section 2703 (as added by section 1001(4));
(10) in section 2733 (42 U.S.C. 300gg-13), as so redesignated by section 1001(4)--
(A) in subsection (a)--
(i) in the matter preceding paragraph (1), by striking small employer and inserting small employer or an individual;
(ii) in paragraph (1), by inserting , or individual, as applicable, after employer each place that such appears; and
(iii) in paragraph (2), by striking small employer and inserting employer, or individual, as applicable,;
(B) in subsection (b)--
(i) in paragraph (1)--
(I) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by striking small employer and inserting employer, or individual, as applicable,;
(II) in subparagraph (A), by adding and at the end;
(III) by striking subparagraphs (B) and (C); and
(IV) in subparagraph (D)--
(aa) by inserting , or individual, as applicable, after employer; and
(bb) by redesignating such subparagraph as subparagraph (B);
(ii) in paragraph (2)--
(I) by striking small employers each place that such term appears and inserting employers, or individuals, as applicable,; and
(II) by striking small employer and inserting employer, or individual, as applicable,; and
(C) by redesignating such section (as amended by this paragraph) as section 2709 and transferring such section to appear after section 2708 (as added by section 1001(5));
(11) by redesignating subpart 4 as subpart 2;
(12) in section 2735 (42 U.S.C. 300gg-21), as so redesignated by section 1001(4)--
(A) by striking subsection (a);
(B) by striking subparts 1 through 3 each place that such appears and inserting subpart 1;
(C) by redesignating subsections (b) through (e) as subsections (a) through (d), respectively; and
(D) by redesignating such section (as amended by this paragraph) as section 2722;
(13) in section 2736 (42 U.S.C. 300gg-22), as so redesignated by section 1001(4)--
(A) in subsection (a)--
(i) in paragraph (1), by striking small or large group markets and inserting individual or group market; and
(ii) in paragraph (2), by inserting or individual health insurance coverage after group health plans;
(B) in subsection (b)(1)(B), by inserting individual health insurance coverage or after respect to; and
(C) by redesignating such section (as amended by this paragraph) as section 2723;
(14) in section 2737(a)(1) (42 U.S.C. 300gg-23), as so redesignated by section 1001(4)--
(A) by inserting individual or before group health insurance; and
(B) by redesignating such section(as amended by this paragraph) as section 2724;
(15) in section 2762 (42 U.S.C. 300gg-62)--
(A) in the section heading by inserting and application before the period; and
(B) by adding at the end the following:
(c) Application of Part A Provisions-
(1) IN GENERAL- The provisions of part A shall apply to health insurance issuers providing health insurance coverage in the individual market in a State as provided for in such part.
(2) CLARIFICATION- To the extent that any provision of this part conflicts with a provision of part A with respect to health insurance issuers providing health insurance coverage in the individual market in a State, the provisions of such part A shall apply.; and
(16) in section 2791(e) (42 U.S.C. 300gg-91(e))--
(A) in paragraph (2), by striking 51 and inserting 101; and
(B) in paragraph (4)--
(i) by striking at least 2 each place that such appears and inserting at least 1; and
(ii) by striking 50 and inserting 100.
(d) Application- Notwithstanding any other provision of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, nothing in such Act (or an amendment made by such Act) shall be construed to--
(1) prohibit (or authorize the Secretary of Health and Human Services to promulgate regulations that prohibit) a group health plan or health insurance issuer from carrying out utilization management techniques that are commonly used as of the date of enactment of this Act; or
(2) restrict the application of the amendments made by this subtitle.
(e) Technical Amendment to the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974- Subpart B of part 7 of subtitle A of title I of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (29 U.S.C. 1181 et. seq.) is amended, by adding at the end the following:
SEC. 715. ADDITIONAL MARKET REFORMS.
(a) General Rule- Except as provided in subsection (b)--
(1) the provisions of part A of title XXVII of the Public Health Service Act (as amended by the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act) shall apply to group health plans, and health insurance issuers providing health insurance coverage in connection with group health plans, as if included in this subpart; and
(2) to the extent that any provision of this part conflicts with a provision of such part A with respect to group health plans, or health insurance issuers providing health insurance coverage in connection with group health plans, the provisions of such part A shall apply.
(b) Exception- Notwithstanding subsection (a), the provisions of sections 2716 and 2718 of title XXVII of the Public Health Service Act (as amended by the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act) shall not apply with respect to self-insured group health plans, and the provisions of this part shall continue to apply to such plans as if such sections of the Public Health Service Act (as so amended) had not been enacted..
(f) Technical Amendment to the Internal Revenue Code of 1986- Subchapter B of chapter 100 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by adding at the end the following.....SNIP.
harun
(11,348 posts)grandstanding.
onenote
(42,753 posts)Wondering whether the validity of each section should be separately argued, a task he (Breyer) suggested would take a year.
As for your "exactly" -- I sure hope you aren't sticking by the claim that it would be possible to read through and comprehend the ACA in a matter of hours. Because, as every Justice understood, that's nonsensical.
Politicub
(12,165 posts)It's not surprising that Scalia is intellectually lazy. He and a lot of others take pride in forming opinions about what they know little about.
It's worth taking the time at least to know what rights are about to be stripped away from you if the conservative bloc strikes the law down.
onenote
(42,753 posts)Politicub
(12,165 posts)I downloaded the pdf and read it on my kindle.
It was in at least 12 point font, wide margins and triple spaced. I don't remember it taking a burdensome amount of time.
onenote
(42,753 posts)complained that it took them days to work their way through it. WHich isn't surprising since even in standard 24 line/wide margin format, it was over 2500 pages, which works out, at a minute a page, to over 40 hours. And that's not taking into account the amount of time that one has to spend cross referencing many of the provisions to other provisions in existing law (such as the provisions in the ACA that merely state something like "Section 38(b) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to current year business credit) is amended by striking plus at the end of paragraph (34), by striking the period at the end of paragraph (35) and inserting ,plus, and by inserting after paragraph (35) the following: (36) the small employer health insurance credit determined under section 45R..
When you read the bill did you actually understand what that provision meant without digging out a copy of the Internal Revenue Code? If you did, kudos to you. But for most people, reading -- as in actually comprehending -- this bill all the way through would take a very long time.
Politicub
(12,165 posts)But thanks for the trivia.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)onenote
(42,753 posts)You are fooling yourself if you think you could comprehend this bill in a few hours.
Put another way...I could "read" a book written in a language I didn't understand in a few hours. If I had to figure out what it meant...that would take a lot longer. The ACA is not written in a language anyone can understand without referencing other laws and regulations.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)A SCOTUS case is before Justice Fat Tony. He should read the legislation before making a pronouncement on it. And adding 600+ pages to bolster his argument that it's "too long" shows he adds evidence that does not exist.
onenote
(42,753 posts)Seriously. Take a look at the section I posted. My bet is that it would take you a several hours to read, cross reference and comprehend that one section.
But the larger point is that, as others have pointed out, there was no reason for Scalia or any other justice to read the entire act. Justice Breyer acknowledged this during the argument when he jokingly gave his "promise" that he had not read every word of it.
Neither party was arguing that the Act should be reviewed section by section. One side wanted it struck down in its entirely on the grounds that the individual mandate was the heart of the bill and that the court should find that the rest of the bill, no matter what the individual sections say or do, would not have been enacted without the "heart" of the bill. The other side argued that even if the individual mandate was invalidated, the court should leave it to Congress to decide whether and how to "fix" the bill. But, again, no one was arguing that the appropriate way to resolve whether the individual mandate and the rest of the bill were severable from each other was to review and pass judgment on the severability of every single section of the law one section at a time. Thus, if anything, reading the bill all the way through would have been "adding evidence" not relevant to the legal question before the court.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)Yes I expect that fat lazy bastard to read what he's about to give an opinion on. WTF?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)That someone like Scalia has so much power is what is unrealistic.
He has plenty of time to give speeches and fell important.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,831 posts)But now that you have the case you better do your damn job. So read the statute, you fat fuck.
anti-alec
(420 posts)Then the esteemed Justice can tender his resignation to Barack H. Obama as soon as possible.
And take your talking dummy with you - that's Justice Clarence "Pervert" Thomas. He doesn't work.
yankeepants
(1,979 posts)well, not as much as a Koch job anyhow.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)I don't think it's unreasonable to assign a bulk of the reading to law clerks while the Justices read the pertinent sections of the bill for themselves in detail (and any related sections).
global1
(25,270 posts)I'm surprised that they were able to keep it down to 2700 pages. It is not absurd that it is 2700 pages. Have you ever looked at the law? Have you ever read it? Just take a look at the Table of Contents and you will see what all is covered in this law.
It is evident to me that whomever put this 2700 pages together really did a find job.
MattSh
(3,714 posts)How many in Congress do you think actually read this law?
......... <=== Your answer here.
Wow, you think that many actually read it?
SuisseBleu
(4 posts)it is 2,700 pages and opens more questions that it answers. There will need to be another 20,000 pages to explain what was meant in the first 2,700. In fact, not even Congress has read the bill and they voted on it. The most important part of this process will be the implementation of the bill which with be a beaurocratic nightmare.
global1
(25,270 posts)your damn right I really expect you to do that Mr. Scalia!!!!!!!!!
Even Nancy Pelosi didn't read the whole thing.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)What the fuck???
He has already made up his mind, if he decided against reading what he is ruling on.
Hawkowl
(5,213 posts)That was the hammer driving the final nail into the coffin of Democracy. Everyone should now be able to recognize how fucked we are.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)That IS YOUR resonsibility.
BTW: You nor any SCJ have the right to rule on the constitutionality of any laws passed by congress. That is not a power given you in the US Constitution.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)KG
(28,752 posts)ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)Isn't that pretty much precisely the function of the SC?
wpelb
(338 posts)The Court gave itself the right to review the constitutionality of laws in Marbury v. Madison (1803). Many on both sides of the political spectrum have had problems with that ruling; I had a pre-law prof who said it's considered one of the Court's worst decisions (along with Dred Scott and Plessy v. Ferguson).
fasttense
(17,301 posts)of what is and isn't constitutional does NOT make it well...Constitutional.
Yes, the Supremes have overreached their authority even in Marbury v. Madison. The president has overreached too by taking on War powers and the kingly power to murder anyone at will. It's basically because the Senate and the House have allowed it. It's because very few in the federal government takes their oath seriously. They take an oath to the US Constitution NOT to the president, NOT to their Political party, NOT to Norquest, NOT to the people who voted them in, NOT to lobbyists and rich men. Very few people even attempt to uphold their interpretation of the Constitution. They go along with their party, with the president, with the status quo. It's easier than thinking for themselves.
But the Constitution never made the Supremes the final arbiters of the Constitution. We The People are the final arbiters. Our job is to vote out those who do NOT uphold the Constitution as we read it and interpret it. Unfortunately, it's easier to go along with political parties, the status quo and popular opinion. So, most people don't even judge their representatives based on their interpretation of the Constitution.
newspeak
(4,847 posts)however, the present scotus is trying to top it with bush v. gore and citizens united ruling. Yep, they'll go down in history as some of the most self interested, greedy, partisan cretins.
ThomThom
(1,486 posts)The people do not have the expertise to read and understand law. What is to stop Congress from passing unconstitutional laws? Or will we, the people, decide by popular consent? Half the people don't even vote. We need lawyers to determine constitutionality. That is why the job of justice takes our best legal people. What have is a partisan bunch of hacks who won't even be bothered to read and discuss what comes before them. Thank the republicons for the state of this situation and most other problems we face.
fasttense
(17,301 posts)Nowhere in the US Constitution does it say the Supremes have the final say on the Constitutions meaning. The Supremes are suppose to interpret the law. Not create and destroy laws by declaring from their thrones if a law is constitutional or not.
We the people are suppose to determine if a law is constitutional by voting out bad law making legislative representatives. You don't have to have expertise to read the few pages of the Constitution and make up your own mind. Every member of the federal government takes an oath to the Constitution. By that oath, they are saying they will interpret the constitution and act accordingly. We don't need a group of unelected lawyers to create law from their thrones based on who gives them the biggest bribe.
ThomThom
(1,486 posts)when we have bought and paid for representatives and non-thinking public it is tough
it always comes back to campaign finance reform
not everything is in the Constitution, some times we have to work it out. Which takes people like Jefferson to create a plan.
I have to agree with you.
The sad part is that I think some of the SCOTUS justices are just plain incompetent. Their clerks are really the ones doing the research and making the decisions while their SCJ overlords take credit. But again, what kind of democracy do we live in when the common people are constantly taken out of the political loop by the implementation of ambiguous jargon that dominates the whole political spectrum.
Sadder still is the reality that the Supreme Court has sometimes defied logic by making illogical decisions just for partisan or political expediency. And, oh, yeah, BTW... they don't have to read much to do that!
Brooklyn Dame
(169 posts)That is how the far Right (wrongs) have governed -- pass laws that they don't read, propose laws that they don't study the impact of. They're all store bought and paid for.
http://borderlessnewsandviews.com/2012/03/scotus-a-vote-of-no-confidence/
julian09
(1,435 posts)The law is now two years old. they are off July, August and Sept every year. They knew the law was controvercial and headed their way.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,591 posts)See Scalia
source
Thank you, Stephen Colbert!
SWTORFanatic
(385 posts)tblue37
(65,483 posts)Occulus
(20,599 posts)tblue37
(65,483 posts)Justice wanted
(2,657 posts)gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Which is to say, how interwoven is the individual mandate to the fabric of the entire bill? Does the legislation fall completely to pieces if the individual mandate part is deemed unconstitutional? Or can the Act remain largely intact, but without the individual mandate? What parts of the Act have to go if the individual mandate goes?
That would require a pretty thorough sifting of the Act and its various parts. Scalia is basically saying he'd prefer not to have to do that, and I can't say that I blame him. Is the Court obliged to render an opinion on each and every part of the Act and its connectedness to the individual mandate, or is that a task that Congress should have to take up? Congress, of course, could object to an Eighth Amendment violation causing them to rewrite legislation without any clue about how the Supreme Court might rule about any of the choices they might make. That's pretty unrealistic, too.
As to what sort of task the Court took on when it granted cert in the first place, there have been contradictory rulings in the lower courts as to various sections of the Act. The only body that has the power to iron out those differences is the Supreme Court.
It's always a dicey business predicting how a court might rule based on what happens at oral argument. Unanticipated issues might crop up late in the process, and color how the judges perceive the issues long after the lawyers have gone home. Talking it over with the other judges, one or another judge might change his or her mind. Even the very process of writing the opinion can cause a judge to reconsider how the ruling goes. Considering all these factors, it's a fool's game to try to predict the outcome of this very complicated legislation. There are so many moving parts, the Court might just get to the point where it decides that while they would have written parts of the Act differently, Congress has the power to write and enact such legislation, and decline to pass judgment on portions they disagree with.
savalez
(3,517 posts)Tumbulu
(6,292 posts)Neue Regel
(221 posts)And many others, I'm sure
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/115749-sen-baucus-suggests-he-did-not-read-entire-health-bill
I dont think you want me to waste my time to read every page of the healthcare bill, Baucus said, according to the Flathead Beacon. You know why? Its statutory language. ... We hire experts.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2009/07/08/democratic-leader-laughs-at-reading-the-healthcare-bill-before-passing-it
Steny Hoyer, the No. 2 Democrat in the U.S House of Representatives, provided a valuable window on the mindset of the chamber's leadership Tuesday when he all but admitted that few if any members of Congress would read the healthcare reform bill before voting for it.
"If every member pledged to not vote for it if they hadn't read it in its entirety, I think we would have very few votes," Hoyer told CNSNews at his regular weekly news conference.
Of course it is not as bad as all that because "... staff and review boards, they read [the bills] in their entirety. They go over it with members, and members read substantial portions of the bill themselves," Hoyer allowed before veering off in another direction.
"Why would I read the health care bill?"
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)wandy
(3,539 posts)Gonna be another one of those 5/4 things. But we knew that 3 years ago.
CAPHAVOC
(1,138 posts)Best reason yet.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)Good paying job. Good government-provided healthcare. Vacation. Benefits.
I'd like to have his job if all I did was sit around in a robe and whine all day...
Leontius
(2,270 posts)read the bill either.
bbinacan
(7,047 posts)slampoet
(5,032 posts)Swede Atlanta
(3,596 posts)former9thward
(32,071 posts)Even Nancy Pelosi said "We have to pass this bill you so can find out what is in it."
On this point Scalia is correct. Justices do not read the full text of laws they are judging. That is not their job. They make their decisions based on the challenges to the law and the defense of the law. You don;t need to read the text of the law to do that. In the Health Care law only a couple of provisions in the law are being challenged. It would serve no purpose to read the 90% of the law that is not being challenged.
bbinacan
(7,047 posts)One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)Possible he was looking for an excuse to get a did in with reference to your liked comments from our Speaker.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)As I elaborated in #78 below, the way it works is that the contending sides use their briefs to identify the provisions that are relevant to the argument, and the Justices read those parts.
What went on at the law firms? Probably they divided it up, but it's possible that some lawyer(s) read the whole thing.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)A right winger to the core.
Right wing smears.
former9thward
(32,071 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)She is not saying that at all.
former9thward
(32,071 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)She's saying you don't know what's in it because of right wing propaganda and that once it's passed the benefits will be made clear to the American people, and "they will see what is in it."
SATIRical
(261 posts)Here is the context I found of her speech. So what is she saying?
Youve heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other. But I dont know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket. Prevention, prevention, preventionits about diet, not diabetes. Its going to be very, very exciting.
But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy. Furthermore, we believe that health care reform, again I said at the beginning of my remarks, that we sent the three pillars that the Presidents economic stabilization and job creation initiatives were education and innovationinnovation begins in the classroomclean energy and climate, addressing the climate issues in an innovative way to keep us number one and competitive in the world with the new technology, and the third, first among equals I may say, is health care, health insurance reform. Health insurance reform is about jobs. This legislation alone will create 4 million jobs, about 400,000 jobs very soon.
http://www.democraticleader.gov/news/speeches?id=0249
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)And that the propaganda from the MSM (and the authoritarian left) is in fact not true.
former9thward
(32,071 posts)Ok. No more need be said.
bbinacan
(7,047 posts)why start now?
Response to kpete (Original post)
Post removed
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)[IMG][/IMG]
savalez
(3,517 posts)http://www.scotusblog.com/2012/03/argument-recap-a-lift-for-the-mandate/
spooky3
(34,469 posts)MD20
(123 posts)I really don't care for Scalia or his lackey, Thomas. But he does have a point. 2000 of those 2700 pages are likely "pork."
There should be a limit on the number of pages in potential laws submitted to SCOTUS. Also, the use of "legalese" to discourage the average American from reading and understanding such laws should be kept to a minimum.
I don't need to be told in "Greek" what the law entails. And, I don't need to wade through tons of irrelevant documentation to get to the law in contention! Scalia is right on that one; but, true to his sedentary conservative creed, he will do nothing about it. How easy would it have been for the Court to demand restrictions on the size of documents submitted for their ultimate review!
As a safe guard, any potential law must be considered by SCOTUS without regard to any surreptitious attatchments before it becomes the law of the land. Wouldn't that be nice?
BB_Troll
(65 posts)There should be a House rule that states no bills can exceed a page count of 100, or something like that. When the bill is posted 72 hours before the vote, we can all have a legitimate chance to give an informed opinion.
Wouldn't someone have to go through the 2700 pages in order to figure out which ones don't matter? And if they forget a page, what would the penalty be?
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)It probably amounts to well under 1000 pages in the real world.
teddy51
(3,491 posts)to read it, otherwise how can you rule on it. Geez
secondwind
(16,903 posts)Harry Potter novel... What's the big deal?
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)Our fearless leaders vote on shit all the time without reading it.
The Patriot Act, the most unconstitutional law ever passed in our nation, so bad and so unconstitutional that it was designed to "SUNSET" after 4 years. Yeah that worked real well...
I defy anyone to find one Congressman who actually read the entire bill before voting on it. Shit I bet most of Congress still has no idea what is in it.
We don't even have a law requiring elected officials to read and understand a bill before voting on it.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)comments were nothing but a calculated insult aimed at the federal attorney and a dog whistle that neither he nor Slappy Tomas will be going off the reservation on this one.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)there's this line from a Michael Moore movie. "ahem we don't read most of the bills we pass." So logically any bill that they can't read.. can't pass from now on according to the supreme court.. X_X
muntrv
(14,505 posts)csziggy
(34,137 posts)Expanded & Improved Medicare For All Act was only 30 pages long!
http://www.pnhp.org/sites/default/files/docs/2011/HR676-Feb-11-2011.pdf
BB_Troll
(65 posts)Wouldn't we have to get that Medicare vote in before the CBO can issue their report? Sure sounds like it needs a rush job.
csziggy
(34,137 posts)But similar bills were scored by the CBO:
But that doesnt mean there arent data on the budgetary impact of greatly expanding publicly-provided health care. In 2007 and 2009, Rep. Pete Stark (D-Calif.) introduced the AmeriCare Health Care Act, which would automatically enroll Americans in a Medicare-like public plan at birth and allow employers to choose between covering their employees or paying into the public plan to cover them.
The plan would be financed through these employee contributions as well as premiums and state contributions equal to their previous spending on Medicaid and S-CHIP, which would be rolled into the public plan. Unlike H.R. 676, the AmeriCare bill doesnt force providers to go nonprofit, and, importantly, it maintains a role for private insurers. People are free to opt out of the public plan and keep their employer-based health plan if they wish. This means its not a single-payer plan, but its the closest thing for which we have reliable numbers.
Those numbers come courtesy of the Commonwealth Fund, which commissioned the Lewin Group to take a look at AmeriCare and a few other health-care proposals in 2009. The resulting study predicts that, because of a public plans lower provider reimbursement rates and administrative costs, as well as its ability to negotiate down drug prices, enacting the bill would have resulted in $58.1 billion less annual health spending in 2010. It would increase the federal deficit by $188.5 billion a year, and employers would pay $61.5 billion more annually, but state and local governments would save $83.6 billion, and households a whopping $224.5 billion.
http://pnhpcalifornia.org/2011/07/research-desk-how-much-would-single-payer-cost/
magic59
(429 posts)Like that's going to stop cancer, or a stroke. Typical spoiled brat GOP pig with too much power.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)for reading all 7 harry potter books more than once all the way through. 2700 pages? is that all???
not like 15,000 pages. which if your reading LOTR on a Droid X, is how many pages you'll be reading..
abq e streeter
(7,658 posts)Scalia was confirmed on September 17, 1986 by a vote of 98-0.
OhioChick
(23,218 posts)robinlynne
(15,481 posts)onenote
(42,753 posts)If that's grounds for recusal, you're going to probably have to recuse all nine justices since its a safe bet that none of them read the entire law. Indeed, both sides of the case argued that the court didn't have to resolve the severability of each provision. And even before Scalia made his statement, Justice Breyer had acknowledged (actually "promised" that he had not read every word of the law.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)want to read it? Step down.
onenote
(42,753 posts)There was no reason for any of the Justices to read the entire law and none of them did. If you bothered to read the briefs and the transcript of the oral argument you would understand that both sides in this case took the position that the decision on the issue of severability did not require an analysis of each provision of the law.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)there is any chance he might rule objectively?
at all.
A juror saying that would be removed from a trial.
onenote
(42,753 posts)Again, you've obviously never attended a SCOTUS argument. There often are lighthearted exchanges between the Justices and the lawyers and/or between the Justices. At another point in the argument on Wednesday afternoon, there was a riff between Scalia and his fellow Justices (including Kennedy and Sotomayor) on old Jack Benny and Henny Youngman routines.
Your comparison between what would happen if a juror spoke during a trial and a judge speaking is quite bizarre, by the way.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)Botany
(70,576 posts)And if not then don't waste the people's time and money hearing the
case. Justice Brennan read 1,000+ pages of work every week when the
court was in session and when asked did he feel sorry for himself he said
no because that is what my job has me do.
Cass
(2,600 posts)How the hell else are they going to make an informed decision? They can't very well make a decision without reading the document! I'm sorry but this is just lame, lame, lame.
ThomThom
(1,486 posts)Doesn't he know laws are long and complicated?
Where has he been?
Orrex
(63,221 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)damn about them anyway. We haven't had a democracy now for quite awhile. Citizens of the US are just in the way of the oligarchy.
liberal N proud
(60,340 posts)How can that be constitutional?
The justices should be impeached for failing to effectively perform the task for which they have been charged.
They are not going to read it but their decision isn't going to be based on emotion or personal feelings.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)Judges have to do a lot of reading but it's silly to think they would sit down and read a lengthy statute like this one from beginning to end.
What happens in the real world is that the lawyers for both sides pore over the statute so that they can cite or quote relevant passages in their briefs. Wherever there's a disagreement about the meaning of a particular passage, the judges go read that, and as much else around it as is necessary to give it context. If the context is that there's something 200 pages away that, for example, gives certain people an exemption from the quoted passage, the judges rely on the lawyers to call their attention to that if it's relevant to the argument.
The longest thing I've ever had to read was the transcript of a six-week trial. It ran about 3,200 pages. I read every freaking word, taking detailed notes, and then wrote a brief that was replete with citations to specific pages in the transcript. So did my adversary. There was post-trial briefing and then an appeal, and I very much doubt that any of those judges read the whole transcript.
I also very much doubt that any of the Justices on the Supreme Court will read the entire ACA. That's simply not how the system works and it's not how it should work.
unkachuck
(6,295 posts)....3200 pages, why can't fat-tony and his shills read 2700 pages? If he didn't want to read long legislation that impacts hundreds of millions of people, why did he take the supreme justice gig in the first place?
....yes, fat-tony should read ever last word of it, before he rejects it....
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)There were other cases before them last week, and there'll be others next week. All of those cases will have briefs that should be read.
Furthermore, reading raw statutory text isn't the best use of a Justice's time. It really is more efficient for them to read the briefs, to read the parts of the statute that the lawyers highlight, and to read the precedents that the lawyers cite.
BTW, I don't think that "fat-tony and his shills" are the only ones who didn't read 2700 pages. My guess is that none of the svelte liberals on the Court read the whole thing, either.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)I don't buy that he "doesn't have that luxury."
unkachuck
(6,295 posts)....exactly....he has plenty of time and luxury....
....the fat-tony standard, "If progressive legislation is too big to read, it's too big to exist."
MD20
(123 posts)Last edited Thu Mar 29, 2012, 01:25 AM - Edit history (1)
Just how SHOULD it work? We might finally become a democracy if the law makers would just *K. I.S.S.* so common people can understand what is being done to them. After all ,we are paying for all this jargon and legalese.
** Keep it simple stupid This pejorative is not meant fo you sir, its meant for Congress!
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)In an advanced industrial society of 300 million people, the legal structure gets complicated. If you were to try writing the ACA in a substantially shorter form, you'd find that you were leaving all sorts of ambiguities.
The only way to have short, understandable bills on subjects like this would be to confer huge (possibly unconstitutional) amounts of administrative discretion. To have "a government of laws and not of men" (in the classical formulation), we have to have laws that are fairly detailed.
adigal
(7,581 posts)I guess I should grade papers based on what the students tell me about their papers!!!
onenote
(42,753 posts)Judges don't engage in independent investigations. They are reviewing lower court decisions based on the record created and the legal arguments presented to them.
I guarantee that none of the other Justices have read the entire 2700 pages of the ACA. Indeed, Sotomayor's argument essentially is that if the mandate is struck down its not the role of the court to go through the Act and decide what survives -- that should be up to Congress. In other words, Sotomayor and Scalia were making basically the same point.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)The idea is that each side will present the facts, legal precedents, etc. that support its position. The judges will have the benefit of these presentations instead of doing independent investigation.
Your example is different because teachers grading papers don't commonly use the adversary system. You shouldn't grade in reliance on what your students tell you unless someone is engaged on the other side, someone knowledgeable and experienced in the field, who reads the same papers and is assigned to argue for a lower grade.
Incidentally, the ACA argument illustrates the point. Because the case is so complex, there are more than two possible resolutions. Neither the plaintiffs nor the Department of Justice favor the resolution reached in the lower court. Therefore, the Supreme Court appointed a third set of lawyers to argue for that position. That's an unusual step, but appropriate here, because it ensures that the Court will hear all the relevant arguments.
MD20
(123 posts)perhaps the progressives can conspire to have select resignations ( Thomas /Scalia) slipped in among the pages of an otherwise innocuos bill. Once it is signed, we notify Obama to go over wth an armed escort and demand they leave the building.
adigal
(7,581 posts)That is his job.
onenote
(42,753 posts)but that merely reflects your lack of familiarity with how courts operate.
It is not the "job" of the Justices to read every line of a statute whose constitutionality is before them. Their job is to review the record and legal briefs presented to them. And, here's a clue -- most justices (and appellate court judges) don't even read all of the briefs. Rather they often rely on their clerks to prepare summaries of the briefs -- the justices/judges may then choose to read some briefs all the way through.
I guarantee that none of the Justices read the ACA "all the way through". Indeed, Sotamayor's point was that it should be left to Congress to decide whether other provisions of the ACA need to be revisited if the mandate is struck down. I'm certain that she doesn't think it is necessary for her to read the whole statute.
A lot of uninformed outrage here. Take it from a former clerk for a liberal judge -- Scalia's comments would be backed up not only by every other member of the SCOTUS, but also by every other sitting member of the federal judiciary.
adigal
(7,581 posts)they should know, exactly, what they are getting rid of. They are trying to play both sides of the fence - getting rid of a law when they don't even know what is in it.
onenote
(42,753 posts)The question is whether a case can be made that the entire thing should fall whether or not the individual pieces are unconstitutional. If the lawyers have made that case without discussing every individual provision, then they win. If they fail to make that case without discussing every individual provision, they lose. The Justices don't need to independently review every position, they have to determine whether the lawyers have made the case for their respective positions. Rather, the issue is whether a justice is convinced by the legal arguments that its not necessary to review the entire law (a position apparently held, for opposite reasons, by Sotamayor and Scalia, the former believing that the fate of the rest of the law should be left to Congress while Scalia believes the case has been made for striking it down).
Response to onenote (Reply #96)
onenote This message was self-deleted by its author.
Javaman
(62,534 posts)golfguru
(4,987 posts)I frequently borrow books from my library on CD. I can close my eyes and just listen.
Javaman
(62,534 posts)Response to kpete (Original post)
polichick This message was self-deleted by its author.
just1voice
(1,362 posts)Scalia's a pigfck liar who represents criminal corporations so nobody cares what he says, he'll support anything that's bad for the American people regardless of its length.
Look at all the current BS "Acts" like Dodd-Frank, they are written by lobbyists for criminal corporations. A bill or Act that is 2700 pages long is nothing but a handbook for crime, that's the real point.
FlyByNight
(1,756 posts)...if you don't want to do your fucking job.
Pig.
onenote
(42,753 posts)In fact, the first Justice to make the point that he had not read every word was Justice Breyer, not Scalia. The proponents of striking down the entire law were not arguing that every provision was unconstitutional, but rather that the individual mandate was the "heart" of the law and that without it, and a couple of other provisions that even the government conceded were not severable from that provision, the rest of the law should be struck down so Congress could operate on a "clean slate." The flip side argument was that even if the mandate was unconstitutional and a couple of other provisions so intertwined with the mandate that they could not stand without the mandate, the court didn't need to consider each other provision because the presumption was that they could be severed and allowed to stand.
As Justice Breyer pointed out, if the choice wasn't either strike it all down or strike down only the few parts that both sides conceded need to be struck down, the option -- which neither side was advocating -- would be for the court to "spend a year reading all this" and having the parties argue the severability issue with respect to each provision.
While its fun to make mock of Scalia on this, the point is that neither side expected or had suggested that it was necessary or even appropriate for the court to read every provision of the law. Folks that think the court should have simply have no understanding of the legal issue being considered.
golfguru
(4,987 posts)which would require every congress critter to read every bill they vote on.
AHCA was passed without most not reading it. Nancy Pelosi said you have to pass it to find out what is in it. That is ludicrous. No wonder it is a big mess now.
onenote
(42,753 posts)golfguru
(4,987 posts)A QUIZ! If they flunk, can't vote on the bill.
Redford
(373 posts)I'm not sure they all can.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)Seriously, if they strike the whole law down because they do not like two parts, they are breaking the law and should be impeached just as soon as the Dems get control of the House this fall. Impeach them on the grounds of laziness--and Thomas on the grounds of conflict of interest.
onenote
(42,753 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 1, 2012, 11:52 AM - Edit history (1)
While I don't think the Court should strike down the entire Act on the grounds that various other provisions are not severable, that is a case by case decision that often is made and its not "illegal" or an "impeachable" offense for judges to disagree. All of the justices appeared to agree that the standard for deciding severability is not crystal clear
kiranon
(1,727 posts)to take the place of any originality on his part. What an inglorious ending for what could have been an illustrious career on the Court. He will go down in history as just another political hack with a religious bent that perverted his once great intelligence. Some Justices grow older and wiser and some don't grow at all.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)He was appointed precisely because he was a right wing nut who could be counted on to always, or nearly always, vote with the right wing.
Herlong
(649 posts)Being a blowhard bully is better if you don't know shit. Just ask Bill O'really.
onenote
(42,753 posts)None of the Justices have read the entire law. That much was clear from the oral argument, the transcript of which I'm guessing you haven't read. Justice Breyer even said (before Scalia made his comments) that he "promised" he hadn't read every word. And that's exactly right, because the one thing that the two sides in the argument on "severability" agreed on was that there was no need for the Court to review each provision separately to see if should fall or stand assuming the individual mandate was struck down.
Get it?
Response to onenote (Reply #131)
Herlong This message was self-deleted by its author.
Herlong
(649 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)better to be quiet and thought an idiot than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)Beacool
(30,251 posts)Congress rushed to vote on something that none of them had read in its entirety. The largest piece of legislation since the 60s was rushed through without being read.
Unbelievable........
Hotler
(11,445 posts)Johnson20
(315 posts)probably read the whole thing before they voted on it and I doubt if they have read it to date. It didn't upset any one much at the time and probably not now. Hypocrisy abounds here as usual.