Ukraine crisis: Putin 'orders Russian troop pullback'
Source: BBC
Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered thousands of troops stationed near the Ukrainian border to return to their bases, Russian media report.
Mr Putin's spokesman said about 17,600 soldiers on training exercises in the Rostov region would be pulled back.
Russia has previously announced troop withdrawals that Nato and the US say were not actually carried out.
Russia has been accused of supplying troops and weapons to separatist rebels in east Ukraine - claims it denies.
Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29586627
Seems those troops are constantly leaving but somehow always there, while the "separatist" mercenaries get a steady supply of weapons. So the pull out is probably another Putin lie--unless maybe the sanctions are working.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)a caliphate or two.
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)uhnope
(6,419 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)An apparently bugged phone conversation in which a senior US diplomat disparages the EU over the Ukraine crisis has been posted online. The alleged conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, appeared on YouTube on Thursday. It is not clearly when the alleged conversation took place.
Here is a transcript, with analysis by BBC diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus:
Warning: This transcript contains swearing.
Voice thought to be Nuland's: What do you think?
Jonathan Marcus: At the outset it should be clear that this is a fragment of what may well be a larger phone conversation. But the US has not denied its veracity and has been quick to point a finger at the Russian authorities for being behind its interception and leak.
Voice thought to be Pyatt's: I think we're in play. The Klitschko [Vitaly Klitschko, one of three main opposition leaders] piece is obviously the complicated electron here. Especially the announcement of him as deputy prime minister and you've seen some of my notes on the troubles in the marriage right now so we're trying to get a read really fast on where he is on this stuff. But I think your argument to him, which you'll need to make, I think that's the next phone call you want to set up, is exactly the one you made to Yats [Arseniy Yatseniuk, another opposition leader]. And I'm glad you sort of put him on the spot on where he fits in this scenario. And I'm very glad that he said what he said in response.
Jonathan Marcus: The US says that it is working with all sides in the crisis to reach a peaceful solution, noting that "ultimately it is up to the Ukrainian people to decide their future". However this transcript suggests that the US has very clear ideas about what the outcome should be and is striving to achieve these goals. Russian spokesmen have insisted that the US is meddling in Ukraine's affairs - no more than Moscow, the cynic might say - but Washington clearly has its own game-plan. The clear purpose in leaking this conversation is to embarrass Washington and for audiences susceptible to Moscow's message to portray the US as interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs.
Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea.
Anti-government protesters in Kiev Anti-government protesters have been camped out in Kiev since November
Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.
Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.
Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?
Nuland: My understanding from that call - but you tell me - was that the big three were going into their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a... three-plus-one conversation or three-plus-two with you. Is that not how you understood it?
Pyatt: No. I think... I mean that's what he proposed but I think, just knowing the dynamic that's been with them where Klitschko has been the top dog, he's going to take a while to show up for whatever meeting they've got and he's probably talking to his guys at this point, so I think you reaching out directly to him helps with the personality management among the three and it gives you also a chance to move fast on all this stuff and put us behind it before they all sit down and he explains why he doesn't like it.
Nuland: OK, good. I'm happy. Why don't you reach out to him and see if he wants to talk before or after.
Pyatt: OK, will do. Thanks.
Nuland: OK... one more wrinkle for you Geoff. [A click can be heard] I can't remember if I told you this, or if I only told Washington this, that when I talked to Jeff Feltman [United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs] this morning, he had a new name for the UN guy Robert Serry did I write you that this morning?
Jonathan Marcus: An intriguing insight into the foreign policy process with work going on at a number of levels: Various officials attempting to marshal the Ukrainian opposition; efforts to get the UN to play an active role in bolstering a deal; and (as you can see below) the big guns waiting in the wings - US Vice-President Joe Biden clearly being lined up to give private words of encouragement at the appropriate moment.
Pyatt: Yeah I saw that.
Nuland: OK. He's now gotten both Serry and [UN Secretary General] Ban Ki-moon to agree that Serry could come in Monday or Tuesday. So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and to have the UN help glue it and, you know, Fuck the EU.
Jonathan Marcus: Not for the first time in an international crisis, the US expresses frustration at the EU's efforts. Washington and Brussels have not been completely in step during the Ukraine crisis. The EU is divided and to some extent hesitant about picking a fight with Moscow. It certainly cannot win a short-term battle for Ukraine's affections with Moscow - it just does not have the cash inducements available. The EU has sought to play a longer game; banking on its attraction over time. But the US clearly is determined to take a much more activist role.
Pyatt: No, exactly. And I think we've got to do something to make it stick together because you can be pretty sure that if it does start to gain altitude, that the Russians will be working behind the scenes to try to torpedo it. And again the fact that this is out there right now, I'm still trying to figure out in my mind why Yanukovych (garbled) that. In the meantime there's a Party of Regions faction meeting going on right now and I'm sure there's a lively argument going on in that group at this point. But anyway we could land jelly side up on this one if we move fast. So let me work on Klitschko and if you can just keep... we want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help to midwife this thing. The other issue is some kind of outreach to Yanukovych but we probably regroup on that tomorrow as we see how things start to fall into place.
Nuland: So on that piece Geoff, when I wrote the note [US vice-president's national security adviser Jake] Sullivan's come back to me VFR [direct to me], saying you need [US Vice-President Joe] Biden and I said probably tomorrow for an atta-boy and to get the deets [details] to stick. So Biden's willing.
Pyatt: OK. Great. Thanks.
Jonathan Marcus: Overall this is a damaging episode between Washington and Moscow. Nobody really emerges with any credit. The US is clearly much more involved in trying to broker a deal in Ukraine than it publicly lets on. There is some embarrassment too for the Americans given the ease with which their communications were hacked. But is the interception and leaking of communications really the way Russia wants to conduct its foreign policy ? Goodness - after Wikileaks, Edward Snowden and the like could the Russian government be joining the radical apostles of open government? I doubt it. Though given some of the comments from Vladimir Putin's adviser on Ukraine Sergei Glazyev - for example his interview with the Kommersant-Ukraine newspaper the other day - you don't need your own listening station to be clear about Russia's intentions. Russia he said "must interfere in Ukraine" and the authorities there should use force against the demonstrators.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
uhnope
(6,419 posts)Sad all the time wasted defending a malicious dictator like Putin
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jul/30/peter-lavelle/rts-peter-lavelle-says-he-doesnt-allow-conspiracy-/
"I dont think Victoria Nuland planned to break up the country. She thought that the east of Ukraine would just submit to the new government, the new government would be pro-Western, then as the Western media said, we should all take deep breath and then wait until Ukraine becomes completely anti-Russian," Babich said. "And of course Victoria Nuland, just like John Kerry, they dont know a thing about Ukraine."
Nuland became a notorious figure in the East as U.S. diplomats responded to Ukraine's political crisis, but there's no evidence she had a plan to break up Ukraine. A phone conversation between Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt about Ukraine's next steps was leaked, in which she was heard as saying "F--- the EU."
Routine remarks from Nuland about the United States' investment in pro-democracy initiatives in Ukraine since it broke off from the Soviet Union in 1991 were widely misconstrued on social media and by RT, which held up her comments as evidence that the U.S. was spending $5 billion to incite the riots (a claim we rated Pants on Fire).
SkyDaddy7
(6,045 posts)It really is depressing how many Putin supporters are on DU. They will defend him regardless of what he does.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)The narrative is that Nuland used mind control to get Kiev to collapse and throw out the pro-Russian oligarch, and that the east only naturally fought back against the fascist coup.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)those things are seriously dangerous mind control cookies and should never be misused.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Nuland was too stupid to not see a breakup of Ukraine if her Right Sektor and Svoboda thugs were to succeed.
Why the fuck should the US care if Ukraine is under Western influence or Eastern? I thought the cold war was over.
Ukraine is Putin's back yard -- he will preserve it as ferociously as we handled the cuban missile crisis.
Stupid PNAC people like Nuland should be fired.
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)It really is depressing how many neocon supporters are on DU. They will defend them regardless of what they do.
ensemble
(164 posts)good guy when exposing Reagan/Iran Contra, crickets on current reporting of Ukraine.
NickB79
(19,257 posts)Because preventing a neighboring country from entering into economic pacts with Europe is EXACTLY LIKE stopping nuclear weapons from being installed in Cuba
You "thought the cold war was over" but then defend Putin's use of the EXACT SAME RHETORIC that existed and maintained during the Cold War? Really?
Cha
(297,490 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)If Ukraine was allowed to do what it wanted to do without subterfuge then it'd likely join the EU and still be a trade partner with Russia.
ensemble
(164 posts)like pouring billions into pro western groups? Russia fears Ukraine joining NATO, and Putin would lose support among Russians if he left the "Federalists" hanging out to dry.
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)Tricky how he got Russian troops to take over parts of Ukraine. Sly devil, what?
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Russia had no troops on Ukraine's borders? I guess NATO and the west were telling the truth after all. Next will be how we will learn the Russian troops were in Ukraine just like they were found to be in Crimea for that invasion.
Cha
(297,490 posts)Silly facts don't matter. Who knew DU would have such homophobic, racist dictator support?
Hunted in Russia
"Hunted in Russia explores the terror that gay people in Russia are calling the "hunting season". This shocking documentary offers unique access to vigilante groups that track down, beat up and humiliate gay men and women. It depicts a country troubled by disturbing homophobic violence and intimidation -- a country in which gay people are treated like animals and hunted for sport."
BtA http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=219844
Putin allows racist laser show of Obama swallowing banana and imposes food sanction on the US
Russian MP's Obama with banana picture sparks racism debate
"Irina Rodnina tweeted doctored photo of US leader with fruit in country where black athletes are taunted with them regularly
The US ambassador to Russia, Michael McFaul, wrote on Twitter that Rodnina was guilty of "outrageous behaviour, which only brings shame to her parliament and country". A spokesperson for the US embassy quoted Thomas Jefferson in response to the tweet: "Bigotry is the disease of ignorance."
Racism is rife in Russia, and black football players often face racial abuse involving bananas. In 2011, the Brazilian Roberto Carlos, playing for Russian team Anzhi Makhachkala, left the pitch in anger after a banana was thrown at him from the stands. In a separate incident, the club Zenit St Petersburg was fined the equivalent of about £6,300 when a fan offered Carlos a banana before a matchRacism is rife in Russia, and black football players often face racial abuse involving bananas. In 2011, the Brazilian Roberto Carlos, playing .
Rodnina, who lived in the US for many years, deleted the photograph but has not apologised and remains unfazed by accusations of racism. Instead, she suggested that the wave of criticism she prompted from liberal journalists and other Russians was a conspiracy."
MOre..
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/16/russia-obama-banana-racism-debate
Poor Idrina.. "It's a conspiracy". Stay classy racist assholes.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)(of course neither did his buddy Eddy)
Cha
(297,490 posts)do it.
Poor, misunderstood Putin
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)the Russians move troops within their own country.
Igel
(35,337 posts)Of course, Mexico would have no problems.
Esp. if we declare their government illegitimate and deny it recognition, call it fascist and terrorist, and support fairly openly armed insurgents that have taken over government buildings, destroyed transportation links, and kidnapped Mexican officials (and anybody who doesn't look/sound N. Mexican) and hold them.
I'm sure the Mexican government would be happy to have such drills right across the border. Esp. if we refuse to acknowledge them, send recon aircraft across the border, and a suspiciously large number of weapons suddenly appear. Esp. US soldiers "on vacation," but taking their "personal" weapons--tanks, APCs, missile launchers--with them.
I'm just glad that military exercise that began in the spring is finally over. Had to be hard, exercising by sitting in place, and (at least for a while) running their armored vehicles up to within 30 feet of the border, aim at the border post, and sit there for a day. (Wait. Has the US Army trained on that technique, because I know the Mexican government would find that a wonderful thing to behold. They'd gasp in awe and admiration at our restraint and utter, innate goodness. Esp. if a few Mexican border posts were shelled.)
You don't think we have troops near the Mexican border or hold drills there? Really?
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)movement in Mexico and have by force taken over Tijuana?
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)have a civil war going on where they are killing English speaking people? Was "Tijuana" given to Mexico by an American dictator in the 50S.
Yes I think you are missing a lot.
ensemble
(164 posts)n/m
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)They are not all in their own country. He used those troops to invade Crimea which was part of another sovereign nation. Those troops have also become "lost" or on "vacation" in eastern Ukraine and more impressive they were allowed to take their artillery and tanks on that vacation into another sovereign nation.