Ukraine Used Cluster Bombs, Evidence Indicates

[Purveyor]

Source: New York Times

By ANDREW ROTHOCT. 20, 2014


A casing carrying cluster munitions that landed in a shed. Press officers for the Ukrainian military denied that their troops had used cluster weapons in the conflict. Credit Sergey Ponomarev for The New York Times

DONETSK, Ukraine — The Ukrainian Army appears to have fired cluster munitions on several occasions into the heart of Donetsk, unleashing a weapon banned in much of the world into a rebel-held city with a peacetime population of more than one million, according to physical evidence at the scene and interviews with witnesses and victims.

Sites where rockets fell in the city on Oct. 2 and Oct. 5 showed clear signs that cluster munitions had been fired from the direction of army-held territory, where misfired artillery rockets still containing cluster bomblets were found by villagers in farm fields.

The two attacks wounded at least six people and killed a Swiss employee of the International Red Cross based in Donetsk.

If confirmed, the use of cluster bombs by the pro-Western government could complicate efforts to reunite the country, as residents of the east have grown increasingly bitter over the Ukrainian Army’s tactics to oust pro-Russian rebels.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/21/world/ukraine-used-cluster-bombs-report-charges.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=LedeSum&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

[nikto]

1. Not fair!! Only the US is allowed to use cluster-bombs!!

Plus, it's obviously Putin's fault.

Putin must be so terribly evil to provoke this deadly response from Ukraine.

[Recursion]

2. I don't think they're forbidden to anybody

[The Magistrate]

5. There Is A Convention Banning Them, Sir, In Force For Signatories Since 2010

Among the countries which have not signed are Russia, China, the United States, India, Pakistan, Brazil, Turkey, and Ukraine.

[Recursion]

6. Huh, thanks

I missed that.

[nikto]

16. Sounds like all the countries that have them are on that list

[The Magistrate]

17. Surely, Sir, That Does Not Come As A Surprise....

"This is the best world possible. Everything in it is a necessary evil."

[nikto]

18. It's to be expected

[Man from Pickens]

4. The thing about cluster bombs

...is that they leave all sorts of unexploded bits around to be found by future generations, found most often by means of sudden tragedy. But carry on with your jocularity, please, I'm sure there is something funny in all this.

[jtuck004]

7. Nice of you to ride in on your white horse and be all judgmental, but that person was making

a sarcastic comment, which makes this one look childish.

Not wasting any more time here.

[karynnj]

3. The article speaks of both Ukraine and the seperatists having possibly used these weaspons

This is a very nasty civil war and it seems there are bad people on both sides.

[newthinking]

9. It specifies that HRW has verified Ukraine used them - and stated that the rebels "probably" used

them: An opinion.

HRW is being very careful to qualify these kinds of reports bending way over to appear not to take a side. But if cluster bombs were used by the rebels Ukraine would have the evidence well lined up.

[karynnj]

14. My language was intentionally careful - the same report says that the rebels

most likely have used cluster bombs. Their language is not really much different between the two. Where it differs is that they say it was most likely that it was the Ukrainians on two dates in Donetsk. In addition, the article has additional information from other groups and their own reporting on the likely Ukrainian government use.

This article also uses language "the report said that BOTH sides were probably culpable". It also speaks of attacks on Starobesheve - where there language is as strong that it was the rebels as the wording on the two dates in October in Donetsk being the Ukrainians.

It is significant and appropriate that the article's headline speaks of the Ukrainian government. More should be expected of a government than of rebels who are not as likely to have to have a hierarchy approve actions. On either sides, if proven --and this article quotes the report saying "most probably" - not verified. -- this is a war crime.

I am not - and was not - defending the Ukrainian government here. This is wrong. My comment was that this is clearly a very nasty civil war. (For that matter, look at ours - was Sherman's burning everything in sight a war crime? That was our government and I have always lived in states that were in the North - Indiana, NJ, and Vermont.) In the case of Ukraine, the government needs to address what happened and if approval was given (which appears to be the case) who gave it.

[Cha]

11. shhhh, karyn.. not suppose to mention anything about putin's rebel's.. they're immune to criticism..

from 2012..

Syria using Russian cluster bombs, says human rights group

Syrian government forces have used Russian-made cluster bombs on populated areas in their effort to push back rebel advances along the country's main north-south highway, according to Human Rights Watch.

The watchdog on Sunday pointed to videos put up on the internet showing bomblets from cluster munitions in Idlib, Homs, Aleppo and Latakia provinces and outside Damascus. It said interviews with witnesses backed up the video evidence and there were clear signs the weapons had been dropped from aircraft.

The allegations came as President Bashar al-Assad's government was struggling to stop opposition forces consolidating their hold on Idlib province, on the Turkish border. The rebels were reported to have surrounded an army garrison of several hundred men at Urum al-Sughra, between the contested city of Aleppo, the country's commercial and industrial centre, and the frontier.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/14/syria-russian-cluster-bombs-claim

[geek tragedy]

8. War crime. To The Hague with the perps. nt

[Cha]

10. "Human Rights Watch says the rebels have most likely used cluster weapons in the conflict as well"

"Further, in a report released late Monday, Human Rights Watch says the rebels have most likely used cluster weapons in the conflict as well, a detail that The New York Times could not independently verify."

From 2012..

Syria using Russian cluster bombs, says human rights group

Syrian government forces have used Russian-made cluster bombs on populated areas in their effort to push back rebel advances along the country's main north-south highway, according to Human Rights Watch.

The watchdog on Sunday pointed to videos put up on the internet showing bomblets from cluster munitions in Idlib, Homs, Aleppo and Latakia provinces and outside Damascus. It said interviews with witnesses backed up the video evidence and there were clear signs the weapons had been dropped from aircraft.

The allegations came as President Bashar al-Assad's government was struggling to stop opposition forces consolidating their hold on Idlib province, on the Turkish border. The rebels were reported to have surrounded an army garrison of several hundred men at Urum al-Sughra, between the contested city of Aleppo, the country's commercial and industrial centre, and the frontier.

More..
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/14/syria-russian-cluster-bombs-claim

[cosmicone]

12. The Nulandistas on DU will not take this lightly.

There response will be one or more of the following points:

1. This story is just propaganda spewed by Putin.
2. If Ukraine used them the rebels must have started it.
3. So what? Everyone uses them. Their use is standard practice. We use them too.
4. Only the rebels used them and then planted the empty shells to make it look like Ukraine used them.

This is getting hilarious and going from bizarre to absurd.

[daleo]

13. Another variation

Syrian troops used them, so Ukraine rebels used the too, since they both
know Putin. Which is a logical fallacy and guilt by association.

[karynnj]

15. There must be no "Nulandistas" here as there are no posts that fit any of those descriptions

At least as of 11:16 EST.

I do note that one person downplayed the same report also claiming likely use by the rebels in other areas of Ukraine.

I have not seen one post that defended the use by Ukraine or made light of it. I have not seen any of the "Putinistas" (sinking to your level) state that it was wrong for the rebels or Syrians to use them.

I will state it is wrong for anyone - US, Israel, Ukraine .... Russia, Syria etc to use these munitions.

[NutmegYankee]

19. A variation of number 3 would be accurate.

The Ukraine isn't a signatory to the ban. And for tanks, one of the primary weapons against is sensor fused cluster munitions.

It's war. But without being a treaty signer, it isn't a crime.

[Purveyor]

21. So 'sky is the limit' eh? Why not chemical weapons then if all is good? eom

[NutmegYankee]

23. The Ukraine has signed the treaty banning Chemical weapons. eom

[Judi Lynn]

20. US-Backed Ukraine Army Used Cluster Bombs Against Its Own People: Reports

US-Backed Ukraine Army Used Cluster Bombs Against Its Own People: Reports
Published on Tuesday, October 21, 2014
by Common Dreams

'Firing cluster munitions into populated areas is utterly irresponsible and those who ordered such attacks should be held to account,' says rights group.

by Jon Queally, staff writer

The Ukraine Army, backed by both the U.S. and NATO throughout its military campaign against rebel factions in eastern regions of the country over recent months, appears to have fired cluster munitions on the city of Donetsk earlier this month, according to a Human Rights Watch investigation and independent reporting by the New York Times.

Citing the HRW report, physical evidence and its own interviews with both witnesses and victims, the Times reports:

Sites where rockets fell in the city on Oct. 2 and Oct. 5 showed clear signs that cluster munitions had been fired from the direction of army-held territory, where misfired artillery rockets still containing cluster bomblets were found by villagers in farm fields.

The two attacks wounded at least six people and killed a Swiss employee of the International Red Cross based in Donetsk.

If confirmed, the use of cluster bombs by the pro-Western government could complicate efforts to reunite the country, as residents of the east have grown increasingly bitter over the Ukrainian Army’s tactics to oust pro-Russian rebels.

More:
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/10/21/us-backed-ukraine-army-used-cluster-bombs-against-its-own-people-reports

[The Magistrate]

22. A Very Poor Headline, Ma'am

I must confess I get tired of the 'uses X against their own people' line in circumstances where what is actually going on is civil war or open rebellion. It is not as if a government here is simply wheeling up artillery and letting fly at a town out of the clear blue sky: there is a war going on, has been for several months now, in which secessionist forces hold fairly well defined swathes of territory, and give as good as they get in terms of firepower and casualties inflicted on government forces, and whatever civilians happen to be in the battle zones on the government side of the front lines.

I do not know enough about the fine grain of the military situation in which these were employed to judge whether they were fired at legitimate military targets. I know the organization reporting considers just about any use of such weapons improper, but I do not share their standard completely. It is one thing if they are actually intended to hit a concentration of troops or weapons or transport, and quite another if they are simply fired as an area bombardment of a town or neighborhood.

I would also recommend consulting the original report: these things do quite well on their own without the gilding....

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions

[levp]

24. OSCE observers do not confirm use of cluster bombs by Ukrainian army Source: Russia Beyond the Headl

OSCE observers do not confirm use of cluster bombs by Ukrainian army
14:41 October 22, 2014 Interfax

The OSCE Special Monitoring Mission does not confirm human rights activists' reports alleging the use of cluster munitions in the army operation zone in eastern Ukraine. "We have about 90 observers in eastern Ukraine. If we saw something like that, we would have recorded it, but that has not currently been recorded. All we have to say about ammunition or shelling appears in our daily reports. By this time there was nothing in our reports about it," OSCE spokesman Michael Bociurkiw told Deutsche Welle, speaking of a Human Rights Watch report.

Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines