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Bosonic

(3,746 posts)
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 07:18 AM Nov 2014

Egypt closes schools in Sinai towns as area inches toward open war

Source: Reuters

Egypt has indefinitely shut schools in two border towns in northern Sinai as the army prepares to intensify a battle with Islamist militants that turned the daily trip to lessons into a "journey of death".

Local people say children's education has fallen victim while the military stages air strikes against jihadists, who are targeting soldiers and police, and have started beheading army informers.

"We are putting our lives at risk on a daily basis," said Mohamed, a teacher who lives in the town of Sheikh Zuweid. "Sometimes there is fire between gunmen and the armed forces and sometimes stray bullets hit some of us."

Militancy has surged in the Sinai Peninsula, which borders Israel, Gaza and the Suez Canal, since the army ousted an elected Islamist president last summer. At least 33 security personnel were killed last month and one Sinai-based group has pledged its loyalty to Islamic State, which has overrun large areas of Syria and Iraq.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/21/us-egypt-sinai-schools-idUSKCN0J50V320141121?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Egypt closes schools in Sinai towns as area inches toward open war (Original Post) Bosonic Nov 2014 OP
"started beheading army informers." Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #1
I guess since it's not leftynyc Nov 2014 #2
Yeah...I miss those crockdile tears. Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #6
I second that emotion. Nt PCIntern Nov 2014 #32
From the 1920s IRA? happyslug Nov 2014 #4
I'm pretty sure leftynyc Nov 2014 #5
So it is NOT that such informers were executed but HOW their were executed is the objection.. happyslug Nov 2014 #31
Uh - no leftynyc Nov 2014 #40
Who said there were no trials? happyslug Nov 2014 #41
Spare me leftynyc Nov 2014 #42
That sounds like a group I read about in the 1960s..... happyslug Nov 2014 #43
Are you comparing leftynyc Nov 2014 #44
You may NOT like it, but both are "Reform" groups happyslug Nov 2014 #45
Iraq? Syria? Ukraine? Thailand?? Nigeria?? Blue_Tires Nov 2014 #10
Education Turbineguy Nov 2014 #3
So the banning of school BY THE GOVERNMENT is the fault of the Rebels???? happyslug Nov 2014 #33
This will allow Fattah al Sisi to shine cosmicone Nov 2014 #7
Death has come to Egypt. Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #8
Al Sisi is quite capable of crushing this ISIS-style rebellion. n/t cosmicone Nov 2014 #9
He's sure taking his time. Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #11
I suspect Sisi does NOT trust his enlisted ranks. happyslug Nov 2014 #35
Wow...thanks for the treatise. Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #37
Death came to Egypt when Sisi deposed the elected Muslim Brotherhood government. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2014 #13
+1..thank you. n/t Jefferson23 Nov 2014 #39
You gotta be fucking kidding me! Comrade Grumpy Nov 2014 #12
WTF??? "Moderate" ? Some context you got there. Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #14
The Muslim Brotherhood was a conservative religious political party. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2014 #17
I didn't realize that "moderates" Iamthetruth Nov 2014 #29
Same theory that ... Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #30
Are we discussing Marack or Sisi???? happyslug Nov 2014 #36
"political tendency" in the middle east cosmicone Nov 2014 #18
Last time I checked, Al Sisi is also a Muslim and so were Mubarak, Saddam and Qaddafi. cosmicone Nov 2014 #16
You are full of it. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2014 #19
Whats not to love , Grumpy. Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #22
of all the stupidities, cosmicone Nov 2014 #23
Really Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #25
You two really belong on Free Republic or Discussionist. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2014 #26
Bullshit. Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #28
Egypt is reaping the whirlwind behind their military coup of a legitimately elected government. kelliekat44 Nov 2014 #15
The military coup was necessary in order to protect the minorities cosmicone Nov 2014 #20
"Morsi was incapable of maintaining law and order." NickB79 Nov 2014 #21
Morsi didn't control the police or the miitary. So who was it that didn't maintain law and order? Comrade Grumpy Nov 2014 #27
This is so heartbreaking. hrmjustin Nov 2014 #24
Hold on . . . this must be the fault of the Zionists . . . branford Nov 2014 #34
Give it some time. Rhinodawg Nov 2014 #38
 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
2. I guess since it's not
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 09:47 AM
Nov 2014

involving the Israeli's nobody here gives a shit. How pathetically predictable.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
4. From the 1920s IRA?
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 09:57 AM
Nov 2014

The IRA executed informers. The Communists did the same in 1917. It is standard practice among any group in rebellion.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
5. I'm pretty sure
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 10:21 AM
Nov 2014

it was the beheading part the poster was talking about. I'm not aware of the IRA using that particular method - perhaps you can educate me on it.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
31. So it is NOT that such informers were executed but HOW their were executed is the objection..
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 06:51 PM
Nov 2014

Last edited Fri Nov 21, 2014, 09:37 PM - Edit history (2)

Thus the South African Tire Necklace must be to you a perfectly acceptable means of execution for informers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing

The IRA preferred shooting people in the head (Do to the nature of rebellions firing squads tend to be the preferred method of execution by rebels AND people suppressing rebels).

Iran prefers Hanging:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran#Methods

China Prefers the Firing Squad (through appears to be adopting Lethal Injection to replace the firing Squad).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China

Russia also prefers Firing Squads, but the Death Sentence is presently suspended and has been since Yeltsin adopted the ban in 1996. That ban has been upheld and followed ever since.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Russia

The ban on the Death Penalty is consisted with Russian Imperial History. While Peter the Great expanded the list of crimes subject to the Death Penalty, his Daughter Elizabeth II suppressed the Death Penalty. Later on Elizabeth II brought back the Death Penalty but her's and the Death Penalty of Catherine the Great (Catherine II) restricted the Death Penalty to revolts against the Emperor (Or Empress in the case of Elizabeth and Catherine). That remain the law till the 20th Century, when Murder was added, but after that addition to who could be executed, in most cases Murderers where sentence to hard labor in Siberia instead (I.e. Treason remain the crime you would be executed for NOT murder).

Under the Soviet Union, the Death Penalty was abolished, brought back and abolished again over and over again. Like the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union tended to reserve the death penalty for Treason and Rebellion (and any who opposed them). Thus a lot of people were killed under Stalin, but they were killed for Stalin seeing them as political enemies NOT for Murder or other crimes. Murderers tended to be sentenced to hard labor in Siberia. While Death Penalties were expanded after the Death of Stalin (and in 1960 the crimes subject to the Death Penalties were expanded again) actual execution seems to drop to less then 10 per year. No one has been executed in Russia since 1996.

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-search-post.cfm?country=Russian+Federation

Three Countries use beheading as their method of Captial Punishment:

Benin
Congo (Republic of the)
Saudi Arabia

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-filter.cfm?region=&method=Beheading&language=en

Seven Countries use stoning as a crime, but please watch this list, it includes Iran, where Stoning has been abolished and they is strong evidence it just was NOT done by the State (may have been done by local populations):

Iran
Mauritania
Nigeria
Saudi Arabia
Sudan
United Arab Emirates
Yemen

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-filter.cfm?region=&method=Stoning&language=en

The same with the list of Countries that use the Firing Squad, the list includes the USA and Russia. In the Case of Russia no execution since 1996, but it retains firing squad on the books as the means of Execution. In the USA, Nevada was the last state that used the Firing Squad but Nevada has finally withdrawn it as a method of execution, Cuba is also listed and it has NOT executed anyone since 2003 and presently has no one sentence to death (i.e. de facto abolishment, but technically it is still on the law books). 54 Countries retain the Firing Squad as their preferred method of execution:

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-filter.cfm?region=&method=Shooting&language=en

Hanging is still the top method of execution world wide with 60 Countries opting for hanging when it comes to execution. The Firing Squad is a close #2 at 54 countries (All other methods when added together do NOT come close to either of these two methods):

60 Countries retain Hanging as their method of Execution (Through many of these countries have abolished the Death Penalty OR have NOT sentence anyone to death in years, and in many cases Decades).

http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-filter.cfm?region=&method=Hanging&language=en

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
40. Uh - no
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 06:01 AM
Nov 2014

At least for me it's that there was a death penalty with no trial. That it was a particularly revolting and barbaric method of murder is just that - revolting and barbaric. That there was no trial also makes it uncivilized. But the important thing is - do you feel better now about what happened here? Religious freaks that would cut both our heads off because we're liberals have company and that's supposed to make it all alright and make them worthy of your defense? Well, I'm not impressed.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
41. Who said there were no trials?
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 07:31 PM
Nov 2014
Militants from Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis, Egypt's most active jihadist group, have claimed responsibility for beheading a number of Egyptians in recent months they accused of being informants for Israeli intelligence. The group now may be able to boost its funding, recruiting and fighting abilities by vowing loyalty to Islamic State.


Notice the article did NOT say the victims did not have trials, but that the victims were beheaded for being informers. That is two different things.
 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
42. Spare me
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:14 AM
Nov 2014

We know what this group is all about. Have you heard one time, even one time, that they took the time to apply actual justice to ANY of the thousands they've butchered. You're nearing silly territory. You want to hold up how the US is the "same" as these cretins because we have a death penalty - when was the last time someone was executed (forget the method) for being an informant? This group is nothing but a bunch of barbaric animals who wouldn't think anything of beheading either one of us for being liberals. That's the kind of thing they find worthy of the death penalty. Selling women into slavery is another method to their madness. Don't keep your mind so open your brains fall out.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
43. That sounds like a group I read about in the 1960s.....
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:43 PM
Nov 2014

Known as the "Freedom Riders". All they wanted to undo with violence the proper order of the South. They REFUSED To obey local laws, saying such laws violated the US Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Riders

A man by the name of Martin Luther King had a program of internal security, in that when he was leading Riots and other protests against the laws of the South, they "policed" other members of the group so that no one violated his call for what he called "non-violence".

Yes, the Southern Civil Rights Movement "Policed" themselves in the form of having people just to the rear of the protesters to remove anyone who went beyond what had been agreed on. This was easy for those Southern Segregationist police were so anti-American that they had no African Americans they could use to infiltrate the Civil Rights Marches. Those African Americans they could recruit to be provocateurs where easily located and isolated by the people within the Civil Rights movement that had been given the power to police the ranks of the protesters ("Trials" were held, where the person charged were told not to remain. These would be quick decisions, but held all the effect of a trial, someone was charged, could plead his side, but the decision was up to someone else.

I suspect the same thing is happening within ISIS, they is a set up to determine who is to be killed. In some cases the person may even be given a chance to plead his case before he is executed. Those are still "Trials", prejudicial but still a Trial. Not up to US standards as to a trial but still a Trial.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
44. Are you comparing
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 06:47 AM
Nov 2014

isis to the Freedom Riders? I just want to make sure you are actually making that comparison before I put you on ignore for ridiculousness and idiocy.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
45. You may NOT like it, but both are "Reform" groups
Wed Nov 26, 2014, 11:44 AM
Nov 2014

Both Groups want to change society and were willing to put down their lives for such change. ISIS is more willing to kill for the reforms they want, but the Freedom Riders knew they were risking their lives to push for the reforms they wanted.

You may not LIKE the comparison, but it can be made. Both groups knew their actions would cause violence but that did not stop them from pushing what they considered needed reforms.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
33. So the banning of school BY THE GOVERNMENT is the fault of the Rebels????
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 07:25 PM
Nov 2014

Now the grounds for the closing of the Schools was that the Children were being caught in the cross fire of the Rebels and government troops. Surprisingly, the reports of such "Cross Fires" tends to by Government Troops NOT the Rebels.

The Rebels appear NOT to have done anything to the Schools, except maybe protect them.

You must understand the nature of this revolt. While it is getting hotter since Sissi took over, it was in revolt during the Rule of Mubarak. There seem to be some reduction by the Rebels under Morsi, but that was because he made attempts to deal with the concerns of the people of the Sinai, it was one of the many "Crimes" Morsi was charged with by Sissi when Sissi overthrew Morsi.


The region’s 300,000 Bedouin now add to their grievances the army’s shelling of schools, mass arrests, random shootings and house demolitions echoing Israeli tactics across the border in the Gaza Strip

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21632638-army-crackdown-has-so-far-made-matters-worse-generals-law-sinai


Sinai is a mess:

http://www.cfr.org/egypt/egypts-sinai-peninsula-security/p32055

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/insurgency-takes-root-in-egypts-sinai/2013/07/28/2e3e01da-f7a4-11e2-a954-358d90d5d72d_story.html

Sorry, it appears that the ARMY closed the schools as part of their plan to suppress the rebellion. That implies the students (and their parents) supported the Rebellion and the schools were closed to end their use as a place for people to get together to plot against the Egyptian Army.
 

Rhinodawg

(2,219 posts)
8. Death has come to Egypt.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 10:54 AM
Nov 2014

and nobody will lift a finger for Egypt.



maybe they will ask "the jews" to help out.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
35. I suspect Sisi does NOT trust his enlisted ranks.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 08:50 PM
Nov 2014

In cases where the enlisted ranks support the people they are being used to suppress, the effectiveness of the army declines rapidly. If they had been given a choice many of the enlisted ranks of the Egyptian Army would be with the rebels.

To get around that problem you use those units to hold areas where the troops can be kept contained but can do things like search vehicles and homes while on a short lease. In any real fight such soldiers tend to retreat or surrender (and the opposition knows this and takes them "Prisoner&quot .

You also use what units you have that are reliable against the Rebels. These tend to be volunteer elite units, but by their nature very small in numbers compared to the regular army membership.

Remember Egypt has a draftee army, this most of their enlisted rank did NOT join the Army to suppress fellow Egyptians but to protect Egypt from Foreign invasion. If you get on right wing sites they like stating that Draftee Armies are inferior to All Volunteer Armies for the later want to serve in the Army while the typical Draftee does not. That is nonsense, if the people of the country producing the draftees support the war. On the other hand such draftee armies quickly reflects how the people as a whole view a war. i.e. if the people are AGAINST it, the Draftee Army becomes unreliable.

This can be seen in the US intervention in Vietnam. The US sent in a Draftee Army in 1965, it was extremely effective, many claim it was the best Army the US has ever fielded. Then the Country turned against the War in 1968. A clear Majority still supported the War even during the Tet Offensive in early 1968, but by June that had dropped for the first time, below 50% of the population. The US Army then went into rapid deterioration. It was so fast and quick that by 1969 the North Vietnamese were telling their troops NOT to engage US Troops unless the US troops made a move first. This was because may units after 1968 when they went into the field picked a spot and sat down till it was time to return to base. Search and Destroy had become Search for a Spot that prevented headquarters from finding you and then destroy the ammunition you had by firing it and radioing in to Headquarters that you where engaged with the Viet Cong.

Now, the units that tended to have volunteers (Airborne, Air Mobile, Rangers, Special Forces etc) did not do the above, thus the North Vietnamese Order did say defend yourself from any attacks from American Units. Many of the regular Infantry units also did not do the above for their officers were able to keep the men on the move and willing to take on the Viet Cong (and such officers were the officers that tended to be "Fraged&quot .

Notice the difference. Draftee Armies tend to be as good and at times better (do to the better quality of the pool of draftees you are pulling from as compared to the pull of being in the Army and the pay such service provides which are the two reasons people enlist into a Volunteer Army). The problem is draftee armies are USELESS against an enemy the people at home do not see as an enemy (or used in a war, the people at home viewed as wrong or lost). On the other hand Volunteer units tend to stay together even as the Nation they are fighting for come to oppose what they are fighting for. In Vietnam you saw this with the Draftee Army, as long as the people of the US supported that war, so did the Draftees, but when the people came to oppose the war so did the draftees.

One of the reason the US Army was able to stay in Afghanistan and Iraq longer then in Vietnam was that the US Army could still operate as an Army do to its All Volunteer Nature long after the majority of Americans came to oppose both wars (The War with Iraq NEVER had Majority Support, Afghanistan lost its majority support once the Taliban were driven out of Afghanistan). If the US Army had been the Draftee Army of WWII to Vietnam, the Army would have deteriorated rapidly after we took both countries. The reason being lack of support at home (NOT lack of support for the Soldiers but for the war itself, during Vietnam they was support for the Soldiers but not for the war and the Right Wing did it best, and continued to do its best to say opposing the war was the same as opposing the Troops, which was a lie during Vietnam and it is a lie today).

The US Army is NOT the only example of this. The Russian Army of 1917 had come to oppose WWI for the people of Russia had come to oppose WWI. The reasons the Communists finally took over was no one else wanted to end the war. During the 1917-1918 period Germany finally agreed to surrender, more do to a growing opposition to WWI tied in with the loses on the battlefields and the deteriorating situation at home. England and France also agree to the Armistice for the same pressure on Russia and Germany were hitting both countries, growing massive opposition to the war (This was so massive Winston Churchill in the 1930s told a reporter that had Wilson NOT gone to War in April 1917, a negotiated settlement would have been made by the end of 1917, US Troops and US supplies made the difference).

Please note at the end of WWI, even with US support, the Western Allies agreed to an Armistice rather then march into Germany for they needed to war to end to reduce domestic tensions in their own countries. Not only did Germany have a Marxist Revolt, so did Germany, Hungary and several countries of Eastern Europe, all but the Russia Communist Revolt was suppressed. Troops sent to Russia to support the opposition to the Communists had a habit of embracing the Communists (and for that reason the US and the other Western Countries withdrew their troops, the enlisted ranks were identifying with the Communists to much).

Thus the extent the enlisted ranks support the war reflects the extent the rest of the people of Egypt has for the war. In that regard it appears the Majority of Egyptians support the rebellion or at least oppose suppressing it. Thus most of the Troops of Egypt are useless. In fact Sisi has instated the Egyptian Police so he could use them to suppress not only Morsi Supporters but these rebels. The Egyptian Police was a Volunteer units who tend to be loyal to their Paymasters not the people (Morsi did not need them so he abolished them, Sisi needs them so he reinstated the Police).

I bring up the above for the number of Military Units Sisi can rely on against these rebels is probably very small. If Sisi would attack Israel, I suspect he could use his whole army, for the polls of Egyptians show a massive opposition to Israel and thus such an attack would have popular support among the people and thus also among the draftees.

The problem is Sisi wants peace with Israel and thus he will NOT attack Israel. On the other hand he has limited number of troops he can use effectively against the Rebels. Sisi can send draftee Tanks units and have them blow things up, but if they face ANY opposition, they will tend to clam up inside their tanks and retreat. The same with his Mechanised Infantry. Such Infantry will NOT dismount and take the battle to the enemy (or if they do dismount, they will stay close to their Transport, which tend to be US M113 Armored Personal Carriers, abbreviated as "APC&quot .

Sisi is caught between a Rock and a Hard Place. He can NOT order an attack that would be effective for he does NOT have enough "Volunteers" to do such an attack. His Draftee enlisted ranks do not have it in them to actually destroy these rebels. The troops Sisi can rely on to do that level of attack he needs to keep close to himself to prevent a counter coup and to keep the opposition down, thus the troops Sisi has to actually destroy these rebels is quite small. Thus given this restriction Sisi has to move carefully and he appears to have done so, but Sisi has to do something for his only other option is to withdraw and that is a show of weakness that only a person with a strong support among the people of Egypt could do (i.e. Morsi could withdraw, Sisi can NOT).

Side note: When enlisted ranks oppose a war, they rarely revolt or join the opposition. The whole military structure prevents such acts UNLESS the Officer Corp agree with the Enlisted ranks. In Egypt the Officer Ranks are tied in with the Generals and the ruling elite so such a military revolt is NOT probable. On the other hand the enlisted ranks can go through the motions of doing what they are ordered to do, thus avoid court martial, but do NOT do the little things that makes an Army truly effective. That is what the Egyptian Army is doing, and what happened to the US Army 1969-1972.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
13. Death came to Egypt when Sisi deposed the elected Muslim Brotherhood government.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 02:36 PM
Nov 2014

Gunned down a thousand people in the street, and reimposed the old dictatorship.

Egypt's "liberals" fucked up big time by begging the military to do a coup. If they really cared about democracy, they would have competed in election to replace Morsi. Now, they get to share jail cells with him. Long live pharaoh!

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
12. You gotta be fucking kidding me!
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 02:33 PM
Nov 2014

Sisi has created this mess by overthrowing a democratically-elected moderate (in context) Muslim Brotherhood government, gunning down a thousand people in the streets, killing thousands more, imprisoning and torturing thousands more, and recreating Mubarek's authoritarian soft military dictatorship.

I'm not especially fond of political Islam (nor of Christian parties), but it is certainly an authentic political tendency in the Middle East, and Egypt in particular. Blocking effective political participation by this major tendency gets you what's happening in the Sinai. Block democratic participation, get radicalism, duh.

Your bigoted hatred of Islam blinds you to distinctions within Islam as a political tendency. Morsi is not the same as al-Baghdadi.

And it allows you to cheer atrocities committed by thugs like Sisi.

 

Rhinodawg

(2,219 posts)
14. WTF??? "Moderate" ? Some context you got there.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 02:52 PM
Nov 2014

It almost sounds like you would mind if ISIS took over Egypt.

And wtf is a " political tendency " ?

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
17. The Muslim Brotherhood was a conservative religious political party.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 03:47 PM
Nov 2014

I don't agree with much of their platform, just as I don't agree with conservative Christian political platforms. That doesn't mean I seek to overthrow them by force, jail their leadership, and kill thousands of their members. In a democratic political system, you defeat your enemies at the polls.

They were committed to the path of democracy. That's moderate in the Middle East context.

They were considered too moderate by Saudi-influenced Salafists, who are sympathetic to ISIS. Now, with the democratic route to political power blocked, that opens more space for the jihadis. That's what you're seeing in Egypt now.

WFT is a political tendency? The influence of Islamic thought in a heavily Islamic region is a political tendency. There can be many variants, ranging from the anodyne to the sickening. Refusal to differentiate between them is not helpful.

Iamthetruth

(487 posts)
29. I didn't realize that "moderates"
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 04:58 PM
Nov 2014

Grant themselves unlimited power as Preident. He gave himself unlimited power to legislate without judicial oversight or reviews of his acts. Now that. Ay sound like democracy to you but to me it sounds like the birth of a dictator.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
36. Are we discussing Marack or Sisi????
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 09:29 PM
Nov 2014

Morsi did NOT claim absolute power as President. It was claimed that he did, but he never acted like he did (thus why Sisi was NOT arrested along with the whole General Staff whose loyalty to Morsi was suspect at best).

Now Morsi did make a move to expand the power of the President, but then rescinded them.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/08/world/la-fg-egypt-morsi-20121208

As to the powers being "Grabbed" all were less than what Mubarak had AND what Sisi has at present.

From 2012:

The Brotherhood has long been suspicious of the police and Interior Ministry, which Islamists believe have networks of Mubarak loyalists aiming to disrupt Morsi’s government. The military — still the country’s most revered institution — was viewed as the better choice for instilling order and reassuring diplomats and foreign investors about Egypt’s stability and regional political stature.

The Brotherhood has placated the generals by preserving the military’s broad powers in the proposed constitution. Liberals and Christians boycotted the drafting of the charter, but the secular army approved the document, despite its references to Islamic law, known as sharia.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/08/world/la-fg-egypt-morsi-20121208


Morsi's "Grab" for power was the right to have his decision NOT reviewed by the Courts, a Court with all Mubarak appointees who are hostile to the Revolution as can be seen by their decision to rule the Parliament of Egypt was elected unconstitutionally when the Constitution is NOT yet written and Egypt has long given up on it old Mubarak's constitution:

But the decision raised immediate concerns among many liberal activists who had already been worried that Morsi had taken a distinctly authoritarian air in the three months since he swept out the top ranks of the military and sidelined what had long been a powerful independent institution in Egypt. Egypt’s short-lived parliament was dismissed by the country’s high court shortly before Morsi took power, so legislative powers also are concentrated under the president. Taking the courts out of the equation means there will be no judicial review of Morsi’s decisions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/egypts-president-morsi-takes-sweeping-new-powers/2012/11/22/8d87d716-34cb-11e2-92f0-496af208bf23_story.html


Please note Sisi took even MORE power then Morsi ever proposed taking but Sisi has NEVER been accused of giving himself "Absolute Powers" because he did but he is someone the US wants to rule Egypt.

The military regime of Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi has issued a raft of decrees aimed at stamping out dissent and consolidating the military’s power.

Al-Sisi, who holds absolute executive power pending parliamentary elections that may be held in December or January, issued a decree authorising the military to guard vital public facilities. Anyone attacking such facilities, including but not limited to power stations, the electricity distribution network, pipelines, oil and gas installations and the transport network, will be subject to a military trial.

The abolition of military trials for civilians was one of the key demands of the mass uprising that toppled the dictator Hosni Mubarak in February 2011......

Such have been the tensions in the universities that the authorities delayed the start of the new semester by one month, until October 11, to enable security and surveillance measures to be put in place. Since then, police have stormed at least five universities, killing one student at Alexandria University, and detaining hundreds on charges including destroying public property and violating a protest law even stricter than those laws in place during the Mubarak era.
On Monday, Prime Minister Ibrahim Mahlab announced that the new law applied to schools and universities, and even to school children and students, saying that they could be tried by military courts if they “sabotaged” educational facilities.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/11/01/egyp-n01.html



With the banning of Morsi’s Freedom and Justice Party, the largest political movement in Egypt, al-Sisi would seem to have little difficulty winning the presidency. But the narrow majority in these polls suggests that his popular acclaim falls short of the “broad masses of the Egyptian people who have asked me to seek this honor,” as al-Sisi claimed when announcing his candidacy this week.

Indeed, al-Sisi’s authoritarian actions — the bloody repression of Morsi’s supporters, the imprisonment of journalists and arrest warrants for academics — have likely reduced his standing among many Egyptians, even among those who supported the deposing of Morsi.

http://www.juancole.com/2014/04/egypts-personality-beatification.html


Thus you are complaining that Morsi wanted to be able to make laws NOT subject to judicial review, a judiciary hostile to him and his party. Furthermore the same Judiciary had ruled that HOW the legislature had been elected was illegal (Mostly because they side lost). Thus the Judiciary wanted to grab the power to make laws, but no one in Egypt truly trust them. This can be seen when Sisi took power, the laws he makes are NOT subject to Judicial review.

All Morsi was doing was saying till we have a properly elected Legislature, I am going to make necessary laws that must later be approved by the properly elected legislature. A man by the name of Abraham Lincoln did that in 1861. Lincoln had NO right to call up the Militia, ask for Volunteers or suspend Habeas Corpus, those are powers reserved to Congress. Lincoln did all three because he believed them to be all necessary and that Congress would approve them given the start of the Civil War. The same with what Morsi was doing, all he was "Grabbing" was the right to make needed changes in the law till such time as a legally elected legislature would be elected and formed into a legislature.

Please note Sisi not only grabbed those same powers, he also set up a Constitution where the Legislature has even less control over the Egyptian Army. Sisi is a dictator, but he has US and Israeli support, something Morsi never did have, but it was Morsi doing what Lincoln did in 1861 that is a "Grab for power" NOT what Sisi has done since the coup.
 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
18. "political tendency" in the middle east
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 03:48 PM
Nov 2014

means a bunch of religious blind sheep cheering on violent atrocities by their leaders and feeling more pious because of it.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
16. Last time I checked, Al Sisi is also a Muslim and so were Mubarak, Saddam and Qaddafi.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 03:46 PM
Nov 2014

Just because they don't subscribe to a fanatical brand of Islam, you hate them.

Obviously, those who want ISIS style rule with perpetual Jihad until "Islam dominates the whole world" will call people like me as haters.

All the world wants is for Islam to evolve to the 21st century, not use violence as a political weapon, be tolerant of other cultures and not be misogynistic. It is for the fanatics to realize that the world is a very different place from the 9th-15th centuries and their primitive shenanigans will not be tolerated today.

Your anger should be directed at those fanatics rather than people like me. Muslim brotherhood had its chance at democracy and it resulted in atrocities against the Coptic Christians and other minorities. Someone had to restore law and order. If there were no violent protests against Al Sisi, no one would have been killed. Unfortunately, the fanatics only know violence as a means of expression. Using any other means must make them feel less macho I suppose.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
19. You are full of it.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 03:50 PM
Nov 2014

"Just because they don't subscribe to a fanatical brand of Islam, you hate them." That's utter bullshit.

I'm not fond of authoritarians in general, but I did not support the overthrows of Saddam or Qaddafi.

Both you and your tag-teamer are trying to portray me as an ISIS supporter or something because I don't share your pathological hatred of Islam. Maybe you could join a Hindu militia and go burn down a mosque or something.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
23. of all the stupidities,
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 04:16 PM
Nov 2014

the battle cry "Islam will dominate/rule the world" is the funniest. I'd :ROFL: if not for the fact that >50% of the muslims I encounter, including some liberal friends, believe it to be true!

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
26. You two really belong on Free Republic or Discussionist.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 04:33 PM
Nov 2014

You'll find many more there that share your bigotry than here.

 

kelliekat44

(7,759 posts)
15. Egypt is reaping the whirlwind behind their military coup of a legitimately elected government.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 03:01 PM
Nov 2014

It never should have happened that way.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
20. The military coup was necessary in order to protect the minorities
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 03:50 PM
Nov 2014

and to maintain law and order because the religious fanatics would have wiped out the Coptic Christians and others. Morsi was incapable of maintaining law and order.

NickB79

(19,265 posts)
21. "Morsi was incapable of maintaining law and order."
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 04:05 PM
Nov 2014

So clearly the only way to re-establish law and order was to gun down a thousand civilians in the streets and torture thousands more in black prisons for months on end. Makes perfect sense

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