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bemildred

(90,061 posts)
Wed Jan 21, 2015, 07:35 PM Jan 2015

Russia, Ukraine agree pullback line for heavy arms

Source: AP

BERLIN (AP) -- Separatist forces deployed more arms and manpower Wednesday to an emerging flashpoint in eastern Ukraine, hours before diplomats from Russia and Ukraine agreed on a dividing line from where both sides should pull back their heavy weapons.

Germany's Foreign Minister, who hosted a meeting of his counterparts from Russia, Ukraine and France, said the four parties had agreed that the demarcation line defined in the Minsk agreement of last year should form the basis for the withdrawal. Under the plan, Ukraine and the pro-Russian separatists would pull back their heavy arms 15 kilometers (9 miles) on either side of the line, though there was no agreement on a withdrawal of all troops.

"Today we have finally agreed that the demarcation line mentioned in the Minsk agreement is the line from where the withdrawal of heavy weapons needs to take place now," German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier told reporters after the meeting in Berlin.

Steinmeier said the agreement had been "difficult work" and the talks, which follow a fruitless round of negotiations last week, were "testing the patience of all involved." The parties also agreed that the contact group of Ukraine, Russia, and the OSCE should meet as soon as possible with the aim of laying further groundwork for a high-level meeting in Kazakhstan's capital Astana aimed at reaching a long-lasting settlement.



Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_RUSSIA_UKRAINE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-01-21-17-44-34

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bemildred

(90,061 posts)
1. Ukraine conflict: US accuses rebels of 'land grab'
Wed Jan 21, 2015, 07:39 PM
Jan 2015

US Secretary of State John Kerry has accused pro-Russian separatists in east Ukraine of a "blatant land grab".

He was speaking after reports that the rebels had extended the area they control, violating a ceasefire plan.

Ukraine says Russia has more than 9,000 soldiers fighting alongside the rebels, a claim it denies.

Meanwhile, foreign ministers from Ukraine, Russia, France and Germany issued a joint call to end the fighting, following talks in Berlin.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30928107

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
2. When diplomats engage in diplomatic war to settle disputes nothing gets hurt except feelings.
Wed Jan 21, 2015, 07:53 PM
Jan 2015

And the military industrial complex, that too.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
3. Sounds like a good start. Great work all around!
Wed Jan 21, 2015, 09:49 PM
Jan 2015

It's about time we climbed down off of our war-mongering high horse as well. You did notice the United States was not directly involved at the meeting? Good thing too, our favored diplomatic solution is always the same: more tanks and guns, and more war.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
4. 15 km/9 miles is the range of the main Russian Artillery, the 122 mm Gun
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 12:06 AM
Jan 2015

Last edited Thu Jan 22, 2015, 02:51 AM - Edit history (1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_2A18_%28D-30%29

the self propelled version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S1_Gvozdika

The Former Soviet Union liked the 122mm Gun, the US even looked into a 120 mm artillery piece in the 1950s but decided to stay with the 105mm and 155mm howitzers instead. The 122 mm guns are held at divisional level and are on call by front line units of that Division (This applies to both sides for both sides are using former Soviet Equipment).

Wikipedia calls this a "Howitzers" but it is a "Gun". In artillery those terms apply to certain types of artillery. "Mortars" are high projector weapons, design to shot over obstacles, originally walls but also hills and mountains but at a tremendous lost in range. "Guns" are designed for direct fire over flat ground for maximum range. "Howitzers" are between these two, not quite as high a trajectory as a Mortar, but not the flat shooting of a Gun either. Howitzers are actually preferred in hilly or other rough terrain, so they can shoot over hills that is between the Howitzer and the target.

Under Soviet Doctrine, all of Western Europe was "Mountainous terrain". On the other hand the Steppes of Poland and Russia was flat. Thus Russia always preferred "Guns" to "Howitzers" for "guns" had longer range than "Howitzers" AND Russian mostly fought on the flat Steppes not in the mountains.

Now the second most common piece of Artillery of the former Soviet Union (1980s till today in Russia and other successor states) is the 152mm gun. It has a range of 18.5 km/15 miles. These weapons tend to be held at Corp Level (Three Divisions to a Corp) and further to the rear then divisional artillery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S3_Akatsiya

Thus the Nine Kilometer separation on both sides reflect the ability of the above two artillery pieces (Four if you divide them between towed and Self propelled versions).

Russia and the Ukraine do have longer range artillery pieces, including the 130mm Gun, with its 27.5 km (17 miles), 38 km (23 miles) with rocket assist rounds:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/130_mm_towed_field_gun_M1954_%28M-46%29

And the former Soviet 203 gun with its 37.5 km range and 55.5 km range with rocket assist (The Russians have 12 of these, the Ukrainians 99):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S7_Pion

Please note Rocket Assist increases range, but at a reduce warhead AND reduce accuracy. the 203mm is considered one of the most accurate cannons even made thus rocket assist is NOT considered much of an improvement for it reduces the one thing the 203 mm is known for, being able to hit a pill box from 37 km or 23 miles away. The best way to see this is to remember that US Counties east of the Rockies are only 20 miles north to south AND East to West. Thus the 203 Gun can hit a pillbox more then a COUNTY away but the Russians have few and are NOT a concern in the present fighting.

Please note the low numbers of these 203 mm guns. Russian has 931 of its 152mm self propelled Artillery in use, over 1600 in storage. The Ukraine has 501 of those same 152 mm SP Guns. Russia has 622 SP 122mm Howitzers (Number in Storage is unknown) and the Ukraine has 638. It is unknown how many TOWED 152mm and 122mm Howitzers both sides have.

Just a comment that, yes both sides have Artillery that has greater range then the 152mm and 122mm Guns, those are few in numbers and not really a concern. The concern is the 152mm and 122mm Guns, both Self propelled AND towed.

Side note: At the end of WWI, the US did a study on what Artillery was best. During WWI the US Army had tried to developed its own Artillery but failed (one such attempt was nicknamed the "Crime of 1916" for it was bad). In France the US ended up using French 75mm model 1897 (Which stayed in use by the US Army as artillery till the Italy Campaign of 1943, when the 105mm finally replaced the M1897. The French Model 1897 Cannon Soldiered on during WWII as the 75mm cannon of the Sherman Tank. The 75mm was the gun on MOST Shermans during WWII, and that lasted till AFTER WWII. Now, during WWII it was planned to replace the 75mm with a new 76 mm Antitank gun. This started in the summer of 1944, but was suspended for the Tank Crews found out they could hit any Tiger or Panther in the flank and the 75mm was good enough for that. The problem occurred as US forces neared the German borders, the ability of the Shermans to work to the sides of any German Tank fell tremulously do to the increase hilly terrain. It was then the tank crews started to demand the better 76mm Antitank gun.

Starting in the Fall of 1944 and continuing into the winter and Spring of 1945. Sherman Crews, when they were not engaging a tank, which was MOST of the time, preferred the 75mm cannon for it was designed to fire a High Explosive shell, effective against walls, and other thing enemy infantry would hide behind. On the other hand if they engaged a Tank the Sherman Crew wanted the later 76mm cannon, while its High Explosive Shell was no where near as effective as the 75 mm against anything other then another tank, the 76 mm Anti-Tank round could knock out a Panther and even a Tiger at close range. Thus the Model 1897 French Gun lasted in US service till the end of WWII.

In 1919 the US reviewed its Artillery and studies the Artillery of its allies AND Germany. At that time the US decided the best "Light Artillery" i.e. Divisional Artillery was the 105 mm GERMAN Howitzer, the best "Medium Artillery" i.e held at Army Corp Level, 155 mm French Howitzer AND Gun (Two different weapons) and the 203 mm British Howitzer and Gun. The Russian 122mm was not considered for the US had not run across it during its fighting during WWI. THe Russians during WWII stayed with their own 76mm Gun, the largest Gun you can have AND still be able to be horse pulled and man handled. The 105mm Howitzers was the largest HOWITZER you can have and still be horse drawn and Man handled (Howitzers have Shorter barrels then Guns and thus lighter). The American M101A1 of WWII fame was actually a little to heavy for horse, for it was designed as a "Gun Howitzer" a howitzer that had a longer barrel so it could be used as a gun when needed and from 1939 onward, when it was adopted, it was expected to be hauled by a truck not horses). The range of the M101A1 was SHORTER than the 75 mm French Model 1897 it replaced but it was preferred do to being a Howitzer and thus capable of firing over hill tops, something the French M1897 could not do for it was a gun NOT a Howitzer. Thus the US fought WWII starting with the French Model 1897, but that quickly being replaced by the M101A1 105 mm Howitzers by 1943 (The model 1897 was used in North African and MAYBE Sicily, but NOT in Italy or France).

Since WWII, the US Army decided to go with Self Propelled Artillery. The US Army had some during WWII, but these were all marginal designed and replaced by the 1960s. The US did have a 105 mm Self Propelled Howitzer during WWII, and it technically was replaced by the M108 in the 1950s, but at that time it was decided the M109 155 mm Howitzer would be the Self Propelled Artillery of the US Army replacing any 105 mm Cannon, towed or Self Propelled (Thus very few M108s were built). The Soviet Union did not replace its Towed Artillery till the the 1970s (through some were produced in the 1960s). Thus when the Soviet Union fell, it still had a lot of towed artillery but was replacing them with the Self Propelled that were passed on to successor states.

Large towed artillery pieces are difficult to move. The Self Propelled versions are almost as hard. thus most countries since the Cold War have concentrated on 122, 152 and 155 mm Self Propelled Artillery and abandoning heavier artillery in favor of Rockets or Air power (the biggest exception are the British who uses a 105 mm self propelled howitzer, but one NOT compatible with US M101 105 mm Howitzers rounds). On the other hand Self Propelled Medium and Towed Light Artillery can still be moved quickly and respond to a call for fire quickly, thus stays in every army's inventory.

Thus the Nine KM zone, is the range of the 122mm Guns AND combined with nine KM on each side, it is within the 15 km range of the 152mm Guns. Thus the Nine mile exclusion zone, to prevent these guns from being near the front to fire on the other side but everything on their side of the line is within range of their Guns (In the case of the 152mm Guns, both sides of the line, through please note 152mm are generally held at corp level, 122mm at divisional level. Three Division to a Corp is the rough rule of army hierarchy. Thus the concern is the 122mm guns NOT the 152 mm Guns which are generally held further to the rear then the 122 Division Guns.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
5. Yes, I figured that was the idea, get them out of range of each other.
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 07:46 AM
Jan 2015

I'm not sure that will do the job either, but it's a start. It would be better if somebody would stop giving them more guns and shells, but I'm sure the people trying to live there will take a withdrawal and cease fire. Perhaps they will be able to go foraging for food and coal.


Let the politicians whine and bicker and defend their shriveled egos with words, not guns.

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