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bemildred

(90,061 posts)
Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:30 PM Aug 2014

Vladimir Putin Ramps Up His Postmodern Non-Invasion Invasion of Ukraine

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Just a few weeks ago, in the wake of the MH17 crash, the conflict seemed on the verge of being snuffed out with Ukrainian forces rapidly regaining rebel-held territory. Now, even as Ukrainian forces close in on the rebel strongholds of Donetsk and Luhanks, Russian troops appear to have opened a new front of the battle along the southeastern portion of the border.

Incredibly, this has been done in such a way that President Vladimir Putin can continue denying that Russia is playing a direct military role in the conflict while holding talks this week with Ukrainian President Poro Petroshenko.

For now, my prediction made in the wake of the MH17 crash still holds. Russia’s government will continue to supply the rebels with enough help to keep the conflict going, prevent Ukraine’s new government from asserting control over the country’s territory, deny that it’s doing anything of the sort, and—at least publicly—continue to push for a negotiated solution to the conflict as if it’s not doing anything to prolong it.

This strange postmodern war, in which the two sides are operating not only from different points of view but from entirely different versions of reality, isn’t ending any time soon.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/08/28/vladimir_putin_ramps_up_his_postmodern_non_invasion_invasion_of_ukraine.html

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The Magistrate

(95,247 posts)
1. He Seems To Have Called The Turn, Sir
Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:35 PM
Aug 2014

You may recall my expressing the view that without substantial increase in Russian support, the thing would be closed out by October.

Looks like they have put in about a brigade, which is enough to turn this small-scale thing for a while.

The 'they're fighting on vacation' line is simply priceless....

The Magistrate

(95,247 posts)
5. The Security Council Meeting Will Be Interesting, Sir
Thu Aug 28, 2014, 04:00 PM
Aug 2014

Obviously, Russia will veto any action, but it should get a good deal on record, and possibly kick of a severe sanctions regime.

One of the things which, locally, amuses me no end is the stalwarts of 'Team Putin' still trying to deny Russia hasinvaded the place, and continuing to insist all such reports are mere propaganda from Kiev. If one actually did think the Kiev authorities illegitimate fascists, criminals and worse, one would think Russia would be due some praise for committ8ing troops against them. I gave a whoop of glee on first reading Cambodia had been invaded by the Vietnamese: I did not care who did it, someone had to settle the Khymer Rouge....

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
9. After researching it appears to be the truth. Russian military get almost 2 months off a year
Fri Aug 29, 2014, 01:23 AM
Aug 2014

(You don't have to agree with them, but the FACT is that the Russian people are very concerned about what is happening. Keep in mind more than half a million people have flooded into Russia. Refugees are everywhere in the regions near the border and it is always on the minds of people there. There are relief charities for refugees in every city in the country and a lot of charities have sprung up.

The rebels very clearly said that Russians (the people) are supporting them, but not the Russian army.

Not sure why anyone would think this would be so strange. People get worked up when they feel there is a threat, we have been through it. Lots of volunteer charities pop up and there are lots of discussions of how to help. Russians are not aliens, they are more like us than some here want to admit. They are in a mood of nationalism not all that different than after 9/11. Russia does not need to order men across whether they want more there or not. The people themselves will do it.

Obviously Putin is not discouraging people from volunteering, but I am not so sure that he even could stop it at this point without political consequences.

The Magistrate

(95,247 posts)
11. Thank You For The Laugh, Sir
Fri Aug 29, 2014, 02:01 AM
Aug 2014

Seriously, I needed a good chuckle right then, and you really came through in spades.

The volunteer wheeze is very old. In the thirties, Russia sent four squadrons of fighters, two of bombers, and a tank regiment plus infantry for local security, to China to fight Japanese; all personnel were officially described as volunteers, in no way formed units of the Russian armed forces, and there was a money out one pocket to another bit of book-keeping to pretend the Chinese purchased the equipment, and claims that anyway, the aircrew were there only to train Chinese. Japan not wanting war with Russia much more than Russia did with Japan, did not treat this as grounds for more than strenuous protest, even though the Russian units were quite effective, and some of their personnel captured. No one was fooled, everyone involved, and all informed un-lookers, understood Russia had sent a sizeable ready-made air force to assist China, and did so because it wanted Japan kept busy away from Siberia and the Maritime Provinces. Nor is this anything like the only such instance which could be cited, and it is far from the most recent.

It is simply a fact that Russia is now sending formed units of Russian soldiery, with their equipment, into Ukraine. What is going on is an act of the Russian government, a deployment of Russian soldiers and equipment under Russian orders into combat with Ukraine's armed forces. The paper-work does not impress me, and it does not alter the essence of the matter. Russia is waging a war against Ukraine, a low intensity war, but a war all the same, and its purpose in waging this is the seizure of territory from a neighboring state --- in short, an act of imperialist aggression. It is intended to pay, with full control of oil and gas in the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov which otherwise would benefit Ukraine, and it is viewed as the first essential step to reconstituting the old Russian land empire, or at least as much of this as can practicably be snarfled up in the present day.

Russia has as much right to try this as anyone else has to employ violence for their own aggrandizement, certainly. The problem I have, and a number of other people have as well, is with people who pretend that Russia is not engaged in imperialist aggression, who couch defense of Russia's aggression in Ukraine in terms of resistance to aggression against Russia, and who give every evidence of believing the shabbiest and most threadbare of lies Russia tells about its actions and purposes, all the while insisting everyone who disagrees is duped by propaganda. I could have some respect for someone who made a case on straight realpolitik grounds, and stated straight out their preferred outcome was that Russia achieve its goals, take as much of Ukraine as it thought best for its interests, and reconstituted its old empire. I could respect someone who viewed the thing as a clash between two imperialisms over who would have the sole exploitation of Ukraine, and preferred it to be Russia who became sole exploiter of Ukraine. But I cannot have the slightest respect for the sort of cant which makes up the overwhelming bulk of the commentary made in support of Russian imperialism here.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
3. In response to Kiev ratcheting up its milita army of fascists and misfits to enslave ethnic
Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:50 PM
Aug 2014

Russians in the East and join their near completed illegitimate coup inspired "government".

Someone forgot to put that part in.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
10. The average american has a very naive view of war as well and if the war continues
Fri Aug 29, 2014, 01:37 AM
Aug 2014

they will be screaming because eventually Kiev or another city in central Ukraine will be taken.

All the wars we fight are from safely oversees which is quite different.

There are simply three ways that the war ends:

1. Kiev suppresses the rebels successfully
2. There is a compromise that leads to a resolution
3. The Rebels march on Ukraine proper to make Kiev surrender.

The Rebels, if they resist Kiev, are not going to sit and be bombed for the next 10 years. The reality of war is that outside of a peace agreement (official or just a stand down) there is no way to secure the east (stop the war) without going on the offensive.

That is the worst case scenario. Of course everyone will scream bloody murder and claim that is what the intention was all along, but that is the problem with war, it is continual suffering, compromise, or somebody overwhelms the other.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
12. Civilians were being slaughtered by the Kiev army of misfits and militia, this time some one decided
Fri Aug 29, 2014, 11:41 AM
Aug 2014

to stop it, not unlike Obama stopped the slaughter of the Yazidis.

Keeping neighbouring ethnic civilian Russians from slaughter is more the business of Russia than the Yazidis, and now the Turkmen, the business of America.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
8. Putin calls on pro-Russian rebels to let Ukraine troops leave encirclement
Thu Aug 28, 2014, 05:52 PM
Aug 2014

MOSCOW, Aug 29 (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin called on pro-Russian rebels to provide a humanitarian corridor in east Ukraine for encircled Ukrainian government troops to leave the battlefield, the Kremlin said in a statement on Friday.

"I call on the militia forces to open a humanitarian corridor for encircled Ukraine servicemen in order to avoid pointless victims, to allow them leave the fighting area without impediment, join their families..., to provide urgent medical aid to those wounded as a result of the military operation," he said in a statement.

Putin also said Russia will continue to provide humanitarian aid to civilians in east Ukraine, less than a week after Russia's first aid convoy delivered supplies to east Ukraine and then returned to Russia. (Reporting By Alexei Anishchuk; Editing by Christian Lowe)

http://www.trust.org/item/20140828212257-ziact/

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