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awake

(3,226 posts)
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 11:51 PM Jan 2015

History 'Will Be Very Generous' To Obama

We forget how lucky we are to have President Obama for the last 6 years

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/01/obamas-legacy-chait.html

"It is already clear that, whatever the source of the current disappointment with Obama, the explanation cannot be that he failed to achieve his stated goals. In his first inaugural address, Obama outlined a sweeping domestic agenda. The list of promises was specific: not only to rescue the economy from catastrophe but also to undertake sweeping long-term reforms in health care, education, energy, and financial regulation....."

41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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History 'Will Be Very Generous' To Obama (Original Post) awake Jan 2015 OP
As time goes by and the full impact of the ACA is realized and it becomes an expected program Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #1
Posted to for later. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2015 #2
In the big picture, Obama will be primarily remembered as the President Maedhros Jan 2015 #3
And the ACA will be an unmitigated disaster Doctor_J Jan 2015 #6
Your implication that Bartlet Jan 2015 #8
there is no such implication. We STILL have the worst system in the world, Doctor_J Jan 2015 #9
So ACA did NOT improve anything, made it worse? REALLY? randys1 Jan 2015 #26
It's better for some, worse for others, more expensive, and absolutely killed SP Doctor_J Jan 2015 #34
Who is it worse for? You dont believe the rightwing talking point lie that ACA is causing higher randys1 Jan 2015 #41
That is how the Chomsky left will see him. geek tragedy Jan 2015 #10
Its the Chomsky left now? TM99 Jan 2015 #11
Obama=Bush people are the ones who are not Democrats. nt geek tragedy Jan 2015 #12
Just two sides of the same coin. TM99 Jan 2015 #13
So you live in the past pining for a party that no longer geek tragedy Jan 2015 #14
New is not always better, and TM99 Jan 2015 #19
Race had everything to do with it. geek tragedy Jan 2015 #21
Yours is not a cogent argument. TM99 Jan 2015 #22
Policies that appeal to blacks and Hispanics turn off white geek tragedy Jan 2015 #23
I disagree. TM99 Jan 2015 #24
Many white voters assume "economic justice" means "helping undeserving minorities." geek tragedy Jan 2015 #25
Left Leaning Independent.... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2015 #27
The same Left Leaning Independents who excoriated FDR in his day because he wasn't liberal enough. BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #28
Political Curmudgeons! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2015 #30
I think it's genetic. :-) eom BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #31
Born that way! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2015 #32
Also in fairness to Obama, he is just a continuation of the Bush presidency. But his "change" Doctor_J Jan 2015 #37
go here(link) for the bigger picture quadrature Jan 2015 #4
Mahalo, awake Cha Jan 2015 #5
The best Presidents were those who wanted to do something with the office... happyslug Jan 2015 #7
As One Who Stated Once That Had I Been Able To Vote ChiciB1 Jan 2015 #16
A paper was written by a Naval Officer, telling how far right the Military has moved since Reagan. happyslug Jan 2015 #18
Torture, Surveillance State, the 1%/TBTF, relentlessly sabotaged public education and workers blkmusclmachine Jan 2015 #15
I think not... gregcrawford Jan 2015 #17
He did salvage the economy Doctor_J Jan 2015 #20
Most definitely. Left-leaning Independent demagogues criticizing FDR, have all been forgotten and BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #29
NO, I don't think so Demeter Jan 2015 #33
If those who write history are fans of corporate solutions to problems, torture, more war, Doctor_J Jan 2015 #35
that's not history, that's propaganda Demeter Jan 2015 #36
I think I am going to file this OP right next to this one Doctor_J Jan 2015 #38
Two more years Madmiddle Jan 2015 #39
In education, he is pursuing a corrupt privatization agenda driven by hedge fund managers yurbud Jan 2015 #40

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
1. As time goes by and the full impact of the ACA is realized and it becomes an expected program
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:02 AM
Jan 2015

We can look back and though many says he spent lots if his political clout on getting ACA passed and implemented we can thank he over and over. He has a much better unemployment numbers than he inherited. I would venture those connected to the auto industry are glad to be back working and it was really gloom for them when Obama put forth his Auto bailout, and the government was repaid. Yes, there are other reasons to be happy with Obama, he should be recognized.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
3. In the big picture, Obama will be primarily remembered as the President
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 01:06 AM
Jan 2015

that legitimized the extraordinary behavior of the Bush Administration.

At the end of Bush's second term, Americans were disgusted with the Bush/Cheney Administration. There were four major, controversial ideas put forth by Bush and Cheney:

1. Preemptive wars of aggression, against countries that did not pose a threat to the United States, are acceptable as tools in the geopolitical game.

2. The natural state of affairs for the United States is that of perpetual war, and that war is everywhere and against anyone we designate as supporting "terrorism."

3. Torture is no longer a war crime.

4. Dick Cheney's "Imperial Presidency," an institution that answers to no other branch of government when affairs of "national security" are at stake.

There was a time that these ideas were viewed with shock and alarm by Americans. Now they elicit a shrug.

History will view the Obama Presidency as the one that failed to curtail the Bush Era abuses, but instead embraced them. When a controversial idea in America is championed by both political parties, that idea becomes ordinary and dropped from the debate. Going forward, future Presidents will also embrace these ideas and come up with some new ones of their own.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
6. And the ACA will be an unmitigated disaster
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 02:11 PM
Jan 2015

It has made our status as the nation with the worst healthcare, that costs the most, permanent. How anyone can count that as a success is beyond comprehension.

Bartlet

(172 posts)
8. Your implication that
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 07:38 PM
Jan 2015

somehow we weren't the country with the worst health care system in the world before ACA is laughable.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
9. there is no such implication. We STILL have the worst system in the world,
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 08:23 PM
Jan 2015

and now it's more expensive, everyone has to has to pay the insurance ghouls, and a better system has been completely precluded.

randys1

(16,286 posts)
26. So ACA did NOT improve anything, made it worse? REALLY?
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 08:44 PM
Jan 2015

DO you want to bet every dollar you have now and will make the rest of your LIFE that he could NOT have achieved a public option had he tried?

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
34. It's better for some, worse for others, more expensive, and absolutely killed SP
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 11:16 PM
Jan 2015

What you choose to make of it on balance is obviously extremely biased. The defenders just refuse to admit some basically undeniable truths:

1. It is the same plan that was laughed out of the room when Newt Fucking Gingrinch proposed it last time.
2. Insurance profits are through the roof
3. It is the brain child of The Heritage Foundation, which represents the exact opposite of what everyone who calls him/herself a Dem should stand for
4. It has made real reform impossible, for at least 50 years, probably 100
5. We still have the worst system in the world!!! How can anything that could be classified as "major reform" leave us in last place???

randys1

(16,286 posts)
41. Who is it worse for? You dont believe the rightwing talking point lie that ACA is causing higher
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 01:00 PM
Jan 2015

insurance premiums?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
10. That is how the Chomsky left will see him.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 09:54 PM
Jan 2015

But that is how they see every Democratic president.

That is not a mainstream perspective.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
13. Just two sides of the same coin.
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 12:11 AM
Jan 2015

I never said I was a Democrat. I am Independent and vote for only FDR Dems - you know the old school Democratic Party that used to not be over-run by Neo-Liberal economic policies and Neo-Conservative foreign policies. Yeah, that one!

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
14. So you live in the past pining for a party that no longer
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 12:27 AM
Jan 2015

exists and can never again exist due to race.

Please tell me you're not a civil libertarian, because you can't be an FDR Democrat and a civil libertarian.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
19. New is not always better, and
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 01:41 PM
Jan 2015

I don't throw out what works for something based on a specious argument.

Race has zero to do with New Deal Democratic ideas. What is your race and what is your argument. This should be interesting.

I am not a Democrat. I am an Independent. I already stated that.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
21. Race had everything to do with it.
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 03:35 PM
Jan 2015

Dixiecrats left the party and became rabidly anti-government when the government started helping black people. That is why economic populism from the left no longer wins elections in the south.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
22. Yours is not a cogent argument.
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 05:08 PM
Jan 2015

Dixicrats from then are the GOP today.

Democratic populism actually does draw the black and hispanic vote because of these economic issues.

Try again.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
23. Policies that appeal to blacks and Hispanics turn off white
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 05:19 PM
Jan 2015

working class voters.

To make up for the white working class voters who vote Republican, Democrats need to capture votes from white collar workers who often have different economic incentives and ideologies than 1940's Democrats.

Economic populism worked back then because it had broad appeal. It doesn't have such broad appeal anymore--measures intended to help the poor are viewed with resentment by working class whites because they think the government is taking their money and their jobs and giving them to minorities.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
24. I disagree.
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 08:07 PM
Jan 2015

I am bi-racial. I grew up with a foot in both worlds.

The true mark of privilege is how much money you have. The New Deal style Democratic platform (naturally updated for 21st century realities) offers a more level playing field for both blue and white collar workers by providing real economic justice.

White, black, Hispanic, we all need food, shelter, consistent work, fair wages, health care (NOT health insurance!), basic education, a guaranteed retirement, etc.

I think too many, like yourself, who may mean well have accepted a partial truth. Far fewer whites harbor resentment when ALL are given the above economic foundation. A state that provides welfare is actually different than a welfare state. Both New Democrats and Republicans have allowed those with an excess of wealth to create animosity among those who should not be pitted against each other but rather should be united to re-instate these basic things that were essential to the New Deal.

Neo-liberalism and Neo-conservatism are central tenets of both of the 'ruling elites' in both parties. And they are disastrous policy positions for all races and all workers.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
25. Many white voters assume "economic justice" means "helping undeserving minorities."
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 08:35 PM
Jan 2015

They assume "level playing field" means "handouts."

This goes back to the civil war, and especially to the civil rights era.

Once government became decisively associated with helping black people overcome societal racism, they started hating the government.

Americans hate the government. So, liberals have a tough assignment even when people agree that a policy is desirable, because the government winds up enacting and implementing that policy.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
27. Left Leaning Independent....
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 09:07 PM
Jan 2015

who wish to push around and to tell Democrats what to do....meanwhile they get to duck any responsibility!

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
28. The same Left Leaning Independents who excoriated FDR in his day because he wasn't liberal enough.
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 10:14 PM
Jan 2015

These Left Leaning "Independents" - if they are left-leaning to begin with because it's very hard to tell on a site where people may post anonymously - are doing quite a bit of history revisionism. FDR was continuously criticized by Chomsky-like, left-leaning demagogues back in FDR's day, too. You can read a few excerpts of some of them at the link below.

But below is an excerpt from puakev at DailyKos:

In my examination of the historical record, it is clear that Roosevelt endured vicious, unrelenting attacks from his left that often exceeded the level of vitriol directed at President Obama, and correspondingly, Roosevelt was not viewed by liberals of his day with the adulation and reverence liberals view him today.

In fact, it's pretty remarkable how closely the attacks Roosevelt experienced from his left echo the attacks that liberals make against Obama today. There was criticism of Roosevelt for being too close to Wall Street, criticism of the New Deal's pragmatism and non-ideological approach, criticism of the New Deal for not going nearly far enough, criticism of the New Deal and Roosevelt as preferring conservatism to liberalism, and so on.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/08/11/891631/-UPDATED-Liberal-Criticism-of-Franklin-Roosevelt-and-The-New-Deal
 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
37. Also in fairness to Obama, he is just a continuation of the Bush presidency. But his "change"
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 11:26 PM
Jan 2015

campaign buzzword was complete bullshit. Instead of lying he should have said that he was going to leave things pretty much alone. Then let the chips fall on election day with at least people knowing what was happening.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
7. The best Presidents were those who wanted to do something with the office...
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 05:54 PM
Jan 2015

The worse Presidents, those who just wanted to be President.

First lets address Health Care. Even before Obama became President, it was known that the various Health Insurance Companies were in a death spiral. i.e. as they raise rates, healthy people dropped out, but those who needed medical care stayed in which lead to further increases in premiums, more healthy people dropping out, the people who needed care staying in, which lead to another price increase and this spiral went on and on.

For health care to work, less then 20% of the people paying premiums get more medical care than they pay for, while the other 80% get less medical care than they are paying for. This 80-20 split is typical of most insurance, most people do NOT need insurance, but they also can NOT afford to pay the full bill if and when they do need it, thus are willing to pay a much smaller amount in exchange for an gurantee for full coverage if the thing insured against occurs. The insurance companies calculate the odds to make sure they make a profit on selling the insurance, i.e. the number and amount of the claims is less then ALL PREMIUMS paid. In most cases the premiums exceed the costs and the insurance company makes money. Every so often the reverse happens and the Insurance company lose money. The key is making sure these good years and bad years average out at a slight profit.

Prior to Obama, it was clear the heath care industry was in a death spiral, they retained the 20% that needed health care, but kept losing the 80% who did not. Thus something had to be done and thus ACA, American Care Act, was passed (Called Obamacare by the GOP).

Obama would like to say he lead the charge for ACA, but in reality he just accepted what the Health Industry wrote. The Health Industry knew they needed more healthy people obtaining health care. They knew that to force healthy people to buy health insurance would be difficult UNLESS it became a legal requirement. Thus mandated health insurance is the key feature of ACA. At the same time, the American People will NOT accept such forced health care UNLESS it was tied in with Universal Health care. Thus the Industry agreed to EXPAND health coverage but did all they could to minimize who was covered.

People on this board would like to say that took leadership, but every time Single Payer was introduced, Obama proceeded to kill Single Payer. Single Payer would make Health Insurance obsolete, something the Health Industry did not want, thus it kept on being killed, but kept making a comeback for when you looked at the option it was the most affordable not only to individuals but to the Government (but NOT health insurance companies).

Sorry, Obama did NOT lead the US on ACA, he followed the Health Insurance Companies and their donation. That is NOT leadership, it is being President. i.e Obama was acting like someone who wanted to be President NOT someone who wanted to do something as President.

A Comparison can be made with John F, Kennedy (JFK) and Lyndon B. Johnson (LBJ) both were Presidents during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 1960s, JFK did a lot of actions forced on him by events. i.e. the various call up of National Guard people into Federal Service, so the State Governors could not call them up to stop integration events. JFK said he was for Civil Rights but his actions were minimal in regards to Civil Rights EXCEPT when his hands were forced (George Wallace's Standing in the door of the Alabama University to prevent African American Students from entering. Wallaces stood in the doorway, till he was served with the Court Order and then stood aside. Wallace those showed his white Alabama voters he was with them in regards to segregation, but at the same time showing he would obey the law. JFK played along with Wallace but did NOTHING out of the ordinary to end segregation).

LBJ, on the other hand, used JFK's assassination as a reason to push through the 1964 Civil Rights Acts. LBJ decided it was time to fight for Civil Rights and when the opposition to the 1964 Civil Rights Act decided to Filibuster the passage of that act. LBJ decided it was better for the Federal Government to shut down for 90 days rather then NOT pass the act. Thus for 90 days nothing happened in Washington while the US Senate debated the Civil Rights Act (Filibuster are technically a refusal to end the debate on a law, such an ending of debate needed in 1964 a 2/3rd majority of Senators. You had to end the debate before you could vote on any act in the US Senate, thus to filibuster was to continue the debate till it was decided to withdraw the law being debated. LBJ decided he would NOT withdraw the law and with his allies in the Senate (Hubert Humphrey was his chief ally) permitted nothing else to be debated. Thus anything that the Senate had to do, could NOT be done till the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed. You ended up with the longest Filibuster in US Senate History. 60 days, including seven Saturdays of Debate, ending with a 14 hour one person filibuster by Senate Byrd of West Virginia

https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Civil_Rights_Filibuster_Ended.htm

LBJ worked behind the scenes to get the 67 votes needed to end the debate. LBJ made all types of promises and deals to get those 67 votes. LBJ was NOT going to leave the 1964 CiviL Rights Act die. LBJ pushed it through against massive opposition.

LBJ did NOT stop with the 1964 Civil Rights Act, he pushed through the 1965 Voter's Rights Act and then his "Great Society Program" the last effort to expand on the programs started with the New Deal in 1933

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Society

I like Carter, but Carter in many ways failed as a president for like Obama and Clinton (and both Bushes) Carter wanted to be President, as opposed to someone who wanted to do something as President. Yes, I have to go back to LBJ to find someone who wanted to be President to do things, as opposed to someone who just wanted to be President.

Now, LBJ was a politician and as a good Politician he had to give in to what the Voters wanted. As long as the Majority of Americans supported the War in Vietnam (till the Summer of 1968) LBJ had to make sure Vietnam did not fall. Once the Majority of Americans opposed the war (Summer of 1968) LBJ actually started to pull troops out of Vietnam (i.e. setting up Vietnam to fall). Now LBJ knew he would be blamed for any country that became Communist while he was President (LBJ was a Congressmen in the late 1940s when the GOP invented the "Who lost China?" argument, the GOP answer to that question was the Democrats). Thus to say LBJ had the option to withdraw all US forces from Vietnam and leave it fall, is NOT to understand US politics. You had a solid core of Americans who would NOT accept such a withdraw and fall of Vietnam, a group that could be a base for GOP to win the Congress AND the Presidency. Thus LBJ withdraw was aimed at South Vietnam, that if they did NOT cooperate with the peace movement, LBJ could withdraw support. It was a threat LBJ could make, but I doubt if he could have carried it out (through he could have arrange so that it was clear the problem was out South Vietnamese Allies NOT the North Vietnamese and use that as an excuse to withdraw).

Note, the issue was how the Conquest of South Vietnam would affect US long term voting patterns. LBJ wanted to make sure the Democrats did NOT get the blame, as the Democrats had been blamed for losing China in 1949, just 20 years before. Vietnam was LBJ acting like a person who wanted to be President, as opposed to someone who wanted to do something as President. Vietnam was forced on LBJ (and would have been forced on JFK had JFK NOT been assassinated) by US Domestic Politics. LBJ even said Vietnam would be his downfall. It is easy to blame LBJ for Vietnam, but once you look at the US domestic political situation and LBJ's desire to get his Great Society Program passed, and accept the fact LBJ could NOT get Congress to pass his Great Society Program if Vietnam fell, you understand LBJ's expansion of Vietnam. i..e LBJ did NOT want to expand the war in VIetnam, but LBJ also did not want Vietnam to be used as a weapon to kill his Great Society Program. LBJ was between a rock and a hard place and decided the best option to to keep the anti-communists happy by expanding the War in Vietnam so LBJ could force through Congress his Great Society Program.

ChiciB1

(15,435 posts)
16. As One Who Stated Once That Had I Been Able To Vote
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 11:18 AM
Jan 2015

for LBJ, I must admit upon reflection now that I was way to young to fully understand his impact on our country. How I wish we had some of those long ago Democrats around today. There are only a handful of Democrats today that I have real respect for and can actually align myself with. And, before I get THE REPLY that if I was wrong back then I most likely am wrong now I have to say that my mind was clouded by Viet Nam. My father was career military and I was born into a military family making me an Army brat until I left home. My father was a wonderful compassionate man even though there were "rules" and "lines" we knew not to cross, he keep his SIX girls in line without a bullying, aggressive or any physical abuse.

He was totally against the Viet Nam war and as a young teenager I saw LBJ as a man who promoted the war and DID actually order policies that I felt were wrong and what I viewed to be war crimes back then. BUT, he was a strong leader, forceful and fought for "we the people" in a way I no longer see. I have come to see him differently as I have aged and after reading Doris Kearnes Goodwin's book about him I saw him in a different light.

My father was stationed at Ft. Hood, TX during this time and our family ended up spending 6 years there before he got orders to move to Ft. Bliss, TX. I had no choice because of my age and had to move there with the family and have NO fond memories of Ft. Bliss.

I remain a Democrat today but no longer sign up as a card carrying member. I no longer donate and my exuberant activism is almost dead. Partly because of health issues but also because the Party I now see is rather spineless. I will always vote and work to make people understand the importance of voting, such as it is because it's almost all we have left. To those who try to keep others from voting should be a crime IMO, but it continues unabated! Also, since I live in Florida I truly wonder if my vote really counts, but have no proof to offer.

So enough, just wanted to now say that I now feel LBJ was misunderstood and I believe he felt betrayed by far too many in this country and he suffered severely until his death.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
18. A paper was written by a Naval Officer, telling how far right the Military has moved since Reagan.
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 01:12 PM
Jan 2015

In that paper the author noted that while the country as a whole went right from 1980 onward (his paper came out about 2000 at the end of that right ward surge) the military officer corp went even further to the rights, by a factor of 8 (if memory serves me right). Most of this was the result of the dropping of the draft, for the draft brought into the military a lot of people who never would have thought of the military as a carreer, but once in took it up. Thus the Draft NOT only kept the enlisted ranks to the left of center, it kept the volunteer areas of the Military, the NCO and Officer corps more to the center then either has been since the draft ended in 1973. Thus the fact that your father opposed the War in Vietnam while serving in the Military does NOT surprise me. He sounds like one of those men who was drafted (or enlisted to avoid being drafted, if you enlisted you could pick the area of the army you would serve in, if drafted the army made that decision, thus a lot of "Enlistees" would NOT have enlisted except for the draft).

NCOs and Officers tended to be full timers who decided to stay in after their initial enlistment (which included people being drafted, my Chief Drill Sergeant in 1980 had stayed in AFTER being Drafted, thus the effect of the draft lasted while into the 1980s when it came to who was serving in the Senior ranks of the Military) where the ones who went to the most to the right, which reflects the lost of that pool of enlistees who tended to be lefties who do to he abolishment of the draft were NEVER in the pool of enlistees after 1973. This also was reflected in the Officer corp, many a person decided if he had to serve, it was better as an officer (and thus an "Enlistee" as opposed to a "Draftee&quot then as in the enlisted ranks, Thus even the officer ranks were pulled from a larger pool of potential officers, a pool that included a lot of lefties, then the pool of officers after 1973.

People tend to forget that to defeat a guerillas you have to deny him his "Bowl of Rice" and to do that you must separate the peasants from those guerillas. When that is done, mostly be addressing the problems that lead to the Guerilla war, the peasants slowly abandoned the guerillas and they are defeated. When that is NOT done, the war last for years if not decades or the Guerillas win and oppose the changes they had been fighting for,. Thus to defeat Guerillas it take a left right punch, the left addressing the problems of the peasants, the right putting down the actual fighters. The US never quite did the left wing land reform that was needed in Vietnam (It was done in Korea AND Taiwan, but AFTER the Korean war so to reduce the continued guerilla activities in both places after 1953). The GUerilla war in Guatemala lasted for decades for the ruling elites did NOT want to give up land to the peasants (The war ended when some of the problems of the peasants were addressed). The same with San Salvador, the US pumped all times of resources into ending that war, but it took an offer of land reform (and the collapse of the Soviet Union, and thus an inability to get outside support in the form of weapons forced the Guerillas to return to peaceful means).

Please note the Guerrillas did win some reforms to justify they return to peaceful opposition, but all of Central American is unstable do to the desire of the large land owners to raise export crops and the desire of the peasants to raise food so they can eat. The key to defeating Guerillas is to separate them from their supporters, and in most cases that means addressing the needs of the peasants. If you address those needs the Guerillas can be defeated, if those needs are NOT addressed, you have to rely on repression and sooner or later repression gives way to revolution. A good Guerrilla waits for that revolt and charge in and takes over. This waiting may include a decision to end military operations.

I bring this up for people in the Military knew these rules by the 1960s and saw no way those rules would be followed in Vietnam, the concept of Land Reform was opposed by the people in control of the South Vietnam Government and as long as that was the case the Viet Cong could rely on the peasants for support. Thus the Viet Cong Could NOT be defeated without land reform, but land reform was opposed by the people who controlled the Government of Vietnam. Thus the Government had to be a tyrannical rule (even if on the face it was democratic). Remember the Government opposed what the majority of South Vietnamese wanted and the only way to stay in power was to fix the elections so that the people get to chose which candidates that refuses to do what the people wanted done they get to vote for (and anyone who does support what the people want is NOT on the ballot).

The Left kept pointing the above out, but as long as press in the US kept yelling "Commies, Commie, Commie" the majority refused to see that the democracy was a farce (and when this is pointed out to Americans, they say why then just write in who you want, for Americans assume everyone can do a write in Campaign, something that is uniquely American and NOT heard out side of North America). When the Majority of American finally started to ask why did the war go on and on and the right's answer no longer made sense, the American People finally accepted what they did not want to accept, that the Vietnamese wanted the Communists to rule them. The US did nothing to end that preference for that require removing the people we installed in Vietnam after Diem was assassinated in 1963 (In orders from JFK, through technically JFK did said he wanted Diem alive, anyone who understood coups knew that was NOT possible when it came to Diem).

Sorry about this long speech, but Vietnam is blamed on LBJ, but the intervention came as the result of Diem Assassination and that coup that lead to that assassination was ordered by JFK. The Various people who say JFK, had he lived, would NOT have gone into Vietnam, do not understand American Politics in the 1960s (and refuse to accept how much support among Americans they were for intervention in Vietnam in the 1960s till the summer of 1968). No president would have gone against what the majority of Americans wanted, when it came to GOING to war if he intended to do ANYTHING other then to go to war (Bush Jr, went against the Majority of Americans, but Bush jr did not want to do anything except cut taxes and go to war). LBJ wanted to do something as President and LBJ did things as President. That required LBJ to do what the Majority of Americans wanted to do in regards to Vietnam. JFK, if he wanted to do what LBJ did, would have had to do the same. Thus it was the Great Society AND Vietnam, not the Great Society OR Vietnam. JFK may have been wiling to give up Civil Rights and what is now called LBJ Great Society so he could stay out of Vietnam, but that makes JFK a person who wanted to be president not someone who wanted to be President to get things done.

 

blkmusclmachine

(16,149 posts)
15. Torture, Surveillance State, the 1%/TBTF, relentlessly sabotaged public education and workers
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 06:01 AM
Jan 2015

unions, needless/neverending "capitulation" to rightwing crazies, Christian Dominionist, looked forward on Bush crimes, etc, etc. ...

Yuck!

gregcrawford

(2,382 posts)
17. I think not...
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 01:02 PM
Jan 2015

... Whatever good he may accomplish will be overshadowed by his support of the Trans-Pacific Partnership. If he gets the "fast-track" authorization he's pushing for, we will witness the most treacherous corporate coup d'etat in history, and the annihilation of representative democracy in this country. If only a fraction of the information leaked about this treasonous "trade deal" is true, we are all in for a rough ride as we live - or more likely die - in an Ayn-Randian hellscape from sea to shining sea. May that evil pig of a woman rot in hell.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
20. He did salvage the economy
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 03:27 PM
Jan 2015

Which was no small feat. THough I would prefer a more populist skew to the "growth" - minimum wage should be $12.50 and unions should not be on their collective death bed. But his corporate bias on healthcare, education, retirement are not befitting someone who calls himself a Dem, and has pretty much put the party out of business.

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
29. Most definitely. Left-leaning Independent demagogues criticizing FDR, have all been forgotten and
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 10:21 PM
Jan 2015

their hair-on-fire predictions have not materialized. Those same left-leaning demagogues criticizing President Obama will meet with the same fate in fifty years, but President Obama will go down in history as one of America's most favorable presidents.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
33. NO, I don't think so
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 10:30 PM
Jan 2015

And the final delusion of the Obots will fall, as they wither away in their dotage....

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
35. If those who write history are fans of corporate solutions to problems, torture, more war,
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 11:19 PM
Jan 2015

NDAA, fracking, and so forth, who knows?

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
36. that's not history, that's propaganda
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 11:23 PM
Jan 2015

I'm sure it will exist in the future, as now, and be remaindered in Walmart just as fast as ever...

 

Madmiddle

(459 posts)
39. Two more years
Wed Jan 14, 2015, 08:19 AM
Jan 2015

And if SS goes up in flames because of his blatant ignorance, history will fry him like a scrambled egg.
I see him as a center right kiss ass, that doesn't have the smarts to fight for what's right. History will not be good to him...

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