New H-1B bill will 'help destroy' U.S. tech workforce

[OhioChick]

New legislation being pushed by Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) to hike the H-1B visa cap is drawing criticism and warnings that it will lead to an increase in offshoring of tech jobs.

IEEE-USA said the legislation, introduced by a bipartisan group of lawmakers on Tuesday, will "help destroy" the U.S. tech workforce with guest workers.

Other critics, including Ron Hira, a professor of public policy at Howard University and a leading researcher on the issue, said the bill gives the tech industry "a huge increase in the supply of lower-cost foreign guest workers so they can undercut and replace American workers."

Hira said this bill "will result in an exponential rise of American jobs being shipped overseas."

More: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2868428/new-h-1b-bill-will-help-destroy-us-tech-workforce.html

[djean111]

1. Yep. And those of us who already got displaced are called racist. Pretty neatly done, that. nt

[closeupready]

10. Yes, with arguments fashioned in some patronizing form of, 'genetic lottery bigot!'

or 'protectionism!'

[LiberalEsto]

2. Why is this the product of a "bipartisan group"?

Why are Democrats mixed up in this evil?

[msongs]

3. if the democratic party member president does not veto the bill, voila, bipartisan nt

[jeff47]

4. Because it was the solution supported by Democrats back in the 1990s

During the dot-com boom, we did actually have a shortage of technology workers. Salaries were soaring, and companies were having a hard time finding workers.

The normal solution for such things would be to "let the market sort it out". High salaries would cause more kids to get technology degrees, and more adults to retrain for technology careers, and the shortage would eventually go away.

Instead, DLC-style Democrats and Republicans decided to ramp up the H1B program. The story being it would help the short-term shortage, but more kids would still get technology degrees, and citizens would take over the jobs since H1B visas have a time limit.

The fact that they continue to issue more and more H1B visas, despite busts and recessions, demonstrates that this isn't a particularly truthful story. Because the goal was to bring salaries down, not actually supply workers. Technology workers still dare to ask for salaries above service-sector workers, so they keep adding more and more H1B visas. Because why offshore the job when you can "onshore" the cheap labor?

[JDPriestly]

8. Thanks for this clear explanation.

[pnwmom]

11. Boeing last year again laid off thousands of experienced, highly-qualified tech employees,

and announced that they would be replacing at least 40% of them with people fresh out of engineering school. And placing all those jobs in 4 new "centers of excellence" . . . conveniently located in non-union states.

H1B is not a program that needs to be expanded. It's all about helping to break the unions.

[closeupready]

13. It's interesting, in that light, to re-examine recent settlements made by Silicon Valley concerns

who - it was alleged by the DOJ - collaborated informally in order to SUPPRESS wages amongst their own high tech workers, by agreeing NOT to poach each other's employees.

In a free market with honest enterprises, "poaching" talent from within domestic industries is one of the key things that can lead more generally to a rise in wages for employees (as colleagues start demanding higher pay more in line with their talented colleagues). By colluding to act in concert with your competitors to blacklist their talent, and also to abuse the H1B program to hire and staff your company rather than hire Americans, these tech concerns have shown how dishonest they can be.

Expect the very worst if this measure passes.

[hedda_foil]

21. And the dems who promote ever more H1B visas still use the same excuses.

Namely: "There aren't as many US tech workers as the country needs" and "We need more Americans to study in the STEM fields." Meanwhile, Our experienced tech folks get laid off and their jobs go to cheap labor countries or H1B's from those countries.

When Clinton talked about a level playing field, I was too damn dumb to realize they meant US wages would drop until we are level with India, China and Vietnam.

[appalachiablue]

48. +1. Double win, continue conning Americans with tech degree programs for the $, while insourcing and

outsourcing to save companies $. H1-B was love at first sight, and seems there's no going back, not with labor in Asia. Why is Eric Schmidt calling for more H1-Bs saying it's 'good for the economy and they will create new businesses'! But will they hire Americans, or more visa workers?

[upaloopa]

26. I use to go to Fremont for my job back during the

dot com boom. All the tech companies had long banners that hung 5 or 6 stories down the sides of their buildings that said now hiring.

[appalachiablue]

53. +1

[arcane1]

5. Probably getting donations from the same organizations n/t

[LiberalEsto]

6. I agree 100%

and it is a disgrace

[Phlem]

7. you gotta love our conservative "centrist" Democrats.

Republikans in Dem clothing. How are you supposed to win in the southern states?

[JDPriestly]

9. Hillary Clinton favors these visas.

Here is a video in which Hillary Clinton herself advocates for H1-B visas. This is disgusting.

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrSbmeMGMBUI_QA2nal87UF;_ylc=X1MDOTU4MTA0NjkEX3IDMgRmcgN0aWdodHJvcGV0YgRncHJpZAN6MUxFdEFhRFFEaUt2YzVMallOcWFBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwM0BG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzI2BHF1ZXJ5A2hpbGxhcnkgY2xpbnRvbiBoMS1iIHZpc2FzBHRfc3RtcAMxNDIxODc1MzQ4?p=hillary+clinton+h1-b+visas&fr=tightropetb&fr2=sb-top-search&type=11051_112414&iscqry=

[pnwmom]

12. Please link to a post-recession statement by Clinton. The one you posted is from 2007. n/t

[TBF]

14. Like that makes one hell of a difference. nt

[pnwmom]

15. Before the bubble burst, it appeared that there was a demand that couldn't be met. Now that's

been proven untrue. So yes, it makes a significant difference.

[OhioChick]

17. From 10 months ago..

"Clinton also backed increasing the number of H-1B visas issued by the United States."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/08/hillary-clinton-on-2016-im-thinking-about-it/

[pnwmom]

19. Thank you for a recent statement. I disagree with her on that. n/t

[truedelphi]

22. So it really is one big money party.

Although when it comes to SOTU addresses, they sure know how to make it sound like they gave a friggin' damn.

[appalachiablue]

49. 'Money Party' it is indeed! Showtime for billionaires!

[MH1]

47. Extremely disappointing.

I hope it is being out of touch rather than really in bed with the 1%.

She's still better than any repuke that will be nominated but this really dents any enthusiasm I might have had for her.

I really wish another GOOD candidate would step up. (Not good PERSON, good CANDIDATE.)

[JDPriestly]

30. Is there any evidence to suggest she has changed that stance?

Clinton is very clear in her statement in the video. It is up to her to rescind or change her stance.

If you think she did, please give me a link showing that she did. Silence means confirmation when it comes to political stances. If she changed her stance, I'm sure she would let people know. Until she does, I think that video states her point of view.

[Dogbert22]

16. I created 13 part-time and 5 fulltime jobs with my H1B

I came to the US In 2005 with a H1B visum in my hand and established the subsidiary of a Swiss company. We hired a sales team of 13 and later more very well paid people and when I left the company in 2010 our office employed 5 full time well paid employees. So I personally grew and still grow a tiny bit of the US economy every day.

Without an H1B visa my foreign employer could have not established this subsidiary. And without H1B it would have been terribly difficult for me to move here. Moving from another country to the US is not easy and takes a leap of faith.

H1B visa are a key ingredient to keep high-tech companies growing and going.

Germany for instance tried to copy the US program and bitterly failed because they could not convince enough talented people that they are really welcome in Germany. Just because a Republican pushes the visa program does not make it a bad thing.

Come to grips..!

[TBF]

18. So why establish it here?

Did you come here to escape the taxes of Switzerland?

[Dogbert22]

23. I did not escape at all

but choose to risk my very comfortable status quo to join a country governed by a moron (Bush) knowing that it would also change again..and it did. I consider my move still an adventure in a third world country.

Switzerland has very low taxes but incredible high cost of living and despite being somewhat integrated into Europe Switzerland has a very shielded economy playing protectionism which results that consumer have fewer choices or pay premium..

[Skittles]

20. I know American tech workers who cannot get jobs

HOW is this fair?

and define the word TALENTED - because that is not what we tech workers see, not at ALL

[Dogbert22]

24. it is not fair at all.. we compare two different things

in my experience foreign tech workers cost even more to hire when including cost of move, visa and laywer cost etc.. the reason tech companies hire offshore is to get skills and know-how that they cannot get in the domestic markets.

It is not about the money and it is also not taking away somebodies job. A foreign worker is a specialist that is not for hire locally.

In my old job in Switzerland I hired American citizens to manage American customer accounts and to work in product development for American customers because they had the same cultural background and understood each other literally. The Swiss company benefited from better collaboration and relationship with their American clientele.

In general I believe US- companies do the same and only large corporations will invest in H1B people considering the extra cost involved.

Defining TALENT within the boundaries of this context: people with a desired skill-set and expertise, special or even unique knowledge

As a conclusion, the entire discussion about H1B stealing jobs is a misunderstanding conducted and discussed by people that are not even affected by it.

[TBF]

25. We are all affected by jobs being sent overseas

or given to foreign employees here.

In theory I like the ideas of open borders for people, closed borders for bananas (think about it) ... but the reality is that other countries aren't open to us. Americans are hurt when we send all our jobs away. It's not like we can just choose to pick up and move to another country of our choice (and that they would let us in). If there are skills Americans need to develop then we should be putting the money into education. As POTUS is trying to do by suggesting free community college.

We don't buy the argument that those skills aren't available here, though, because way too many of us have seen our jobs go to someone willing to take less $$$.

[Skittles]

28. those skill sets are often VERY much exaggerated

any American tech worker can tell you the horror stories - the fact is, their jobs are replaced by people who are CHEAPER - *THAT* is the number one requirement

[JDPriestly]

32. Two problems with OUR H!-B program. And neither has to do with the fact that the people come

from foreign countries.

A. The H1-B workers accept wages that are lower than the wages that Americans need to earn to pay back their student loans, live, marry, have children, etc. So the H1-B workers are what we would call scabs if the industries in which they work were unionized. They are brought here to lower the incomes and value of American workers.

If Americans don't have the skills needed, the companies that need the skills should train them. Lack of skill is a problem that can be easily solved. That is no excuse for flooding the labor market with cheap scabs.

B. America has a long, deep tradition that people who immigrate to America can become Americans. They can stay here and become citizens. The H1-B and other similar programs that bring in people to work but don't offer long-term citizenship possibilities are not acceptable here because they violate that long tradition. The H1-Bs should come in on regular work visas with all the rights that regular work visas provide and with the opportunity to stay here and become citizens without having to resort to tricks and lies. Fact is the companies that hire them do not want to sponsor them, do not want to make that long-term commitment. America is what it is because of our immigration. And the H1-B visas are attacks on our long, principled position that America is open to immigrants and welcomes them on the path to citizenship.

[cascadiance]

34. Foreign tech workers costs are less than our costs are as domestic workers...

First of all, until we stop RAISING the cost of education on American citizen students here, and instead give them FREE bachelor's degrees like Indian nationals get, right away, even without looking at the cost of living differences between country, we have an unbalanced equation. Why would smart kids that we really want to be in tech careers spend tons of money on a degree where they are likely to only get jobs where they are underpaid, if they are able to get them at all.

Since H-1B emphasizes TEMPORARY residence, not real IMMIGRATION, we also have an unbalanced equation. Raising H-1B quotas should NOT be in an immigration bill, as it really isn't about helping with real IMMIGRATION to our country! When an H-1B worker comes here to work temporarily and the rest of his or her family still is living back someplace like India where their cost of living is a 10th of ours, then they will be able to save a LOT more than American workers can from what they make when measuring what their whole family's cost of living is there versus here. Also, all money sent back to their family is taken OUT of our economy, and instead of fueling our economy, fuels other economies!

Even though bachelors degrees that are attained free from Indian universities aren't held in as high regard as American bachelor degrees earned here, given that they are free, they allow var more Indian students to pursue graduate degrees here after getting a free bachelor's degree in India and therefore for similar costs of education, they can get a masters degree, whereas an American student only gets a bachelor's degree, and likely has far more debt in our economy too.

I believe that the real immigration processes have been INTENTIONALLY made slower by the PTB as a means to incentivize foreign workers to pursue H-1B jobs, rather than either getting real citizenship or green card visas to work and live here. The rich PTB would rather have temporary slave labor that has no rights to unionize and bargain for better salaries which is why this happens.

[Skittles]

40. check it out, even a repuke knows its a lie

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2873670/anti-h-1b-senator-to-head-immigration-panel.html

[cascadiance]

41. Corporatists Orin Hatch and Democratic senator Schumer are always behind pushing H-1B expansion...

Check just about every bill where they are at the forefront of putting such legislation together... It's time they get taken to task for this!

That's one area where, even though Tea Party Republicans have a different motivation in some instances for rejecting H-1B, where they can help shut down this program. We just need to find a way to help do other forms of more necessary immigration reform so that foreign workers aren't driven in to this program like they have been. We need to push for global labor and environmental protection in all countries to get rid of the "bottom" to race to (and to grab workers from), and also to help streamline other immigration programs like real citizenship applications or green card applications where foreign workers if they come here are encouraged to become a part of the American system rather than just "borrowing" from it in terms of getting experience and cash to take back home with them.

Becoming citizens would allow them to vote, and we could also perhaps finally get some organization of labor in the tech industry that has been lacking over the years when it transitioned quickly to a well paid industry not needing much in terms of labor organization to this H-1B system messing it up both for American workers and "guest" (indentured slave) workers.

[Skittles]

42. you don't get it

you really do not get what this CRAP is really doing to America

[cascadiance]

44. Sorry Skittles, I think you misread me...

... I'm fully agreeing with you that this crap is screwing us! And I'm pointing out how H-1B and those like Hatch and Schumer who have been pushing it have been what's destroying us! Not sure what you have issue with what I'm saying...

H-1B and other forms of outsourcing is probably THE reason that the high tech capital of the world has moved from Silicon Valley to Bangalore in the last decade.

http://qz.com/225879/more-techies-move-to-indias-silicon-valley-than-the-real-silicon-valley/http://qz.com/225879/more-techies-move-to-indias-silicon-valley-than-the-real-silicon-valley/

[hollysmom]

51. they dont always cost less.

When I tracked projects at Mellon, I noticed that the Indian workers cost 1/3 what the american workers cost but did about 1/6 th the work, and that did not count the amount of time taken away from the Americans who tried to help. There is a learning curve, we don't always use the same software and at Mellon, the software salesman had to be very good they were always getting into new 4GL. Most of which were not practical for the work we did.

So I gathered enough statistics tso I thought that I could not be denied and approached the division president - he laughed me out of the office, they don't care that it cost more, the US government gave them so many tax breaks it was like they were working for free.

[MH1]

45. The "talent" is bullshitting on their resumes, in my experience.

My current company is too effed up to (for example) actually train up a high quality intern who had extremely high praise from everyone she worked for and with.

Instead they bring in "consultants" with high turnover because they turn out to not actually be competent at what they are supposed to be able to do, and in fact eff things up so bad that senior people like myself end up fixing their shit. I would MUCH rather be training that new (American) college grad into a developer, and be patient until she gets up to speed - knowing she will turn in quality work - than fixing the f*ck ups of a lying incompetent foreign worker.

(too be clear, not all H1B workers are lying and incompetent, just enough of them that without skilled interviewing, it's a crapshoot what you're going to get. Let's instead hire college grads with stellar records and good reviews from their internships, and actually give them a CHANCE to get their foot in the door and on the ladder to a good career.)

[hollysmom]

52. as a consultant I never lied about my skill set.

However, I can't how many times I found my co-consultants tried to learn on the job.

Here is the thing, I was welcome back to those jobs because I performed at least as good as expected, many times better because some people assume you are lying on your resume. I have a friend - he is a nice person to me even if he lies on his resume - this man one asked me for a reference, told him no, he just asks friends, can't get them from the people he worked for, and he also had to physically move when he exhausted the NYC market - so many consulting firms would not work with him again. After NY, he seemed to move every year.And he was an American.

I looked at it this way, I am a fast learner, but got board easily, so liked changing jobs, and also enjoyed not being involved in office politics. I would tell fellow workers jokingly that I would learn an idea from one person at job A and bring it to job B. Like a bee fertilizing flowers. I would learn how to to things in one place and train the people in the new job and I would take away what ever I could learn at their job. I always got along great with the other programmers, they didn't even seem to mind or know how much more I made than they did. But, I did not get benefits - you know the other thing they are taking away now.

[OhioChick]

29. "TALENTED"

[Skittles]

37. don't even get me started, OhioChick

it's just.....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I remember for every ten SE's there would be, oh, nine who were really good or pretty good or one who SUCKED - now it seems to be the exact opposite

stuff that used to take 15 mins to fix now takes three hours - it is FUCKED

[MH1]

46. YESSSSS.

My experience too.

One of the things that super pisses me off is having to fix the CRAP produced by an H1B who clearly LIED on his CV.

[Skittles]

50. oh DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED

*TOO LATE*

an expert in JCL who is unfamiliar with CYLINDER for example

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[jeff47]

27. Nah, you didn't.

Unless you broke the rules of the H1B visa program. Which is entirely possible.

[JDPriestly]

31. Your story is exceptional.

So many young Americans are out of work and a percentage of those out of work could fill jobs now held by people with H1-B visas. People from foreign countries can come here on work visas without having H1-B visas. Work visa-holders are welcome. It's the H1-B visas that invite people here as guest workers that are against American values.

We have a long, long tradition that immigrants are welcomed here as equals who can become citizens. The H1-B visas violate that tradition. It isn't that foreigners are not welcome in my view. It is that all who come here should have the opportunity to become citizens if they wish unless they simply come on tourist visas. That's the American way.

[cascadiance]

35. These are exactly my feelings. Many of my best friends are Persians, Turks, and Indians, etc.

... and one reason I moved from the midwest to the west coast is I WANT to live in a more diverse community.

I just think that we shouldn't try to equate our rejection of this indentured servant program being called "H-1B" with us wanting to reject foreign workers coming here.

I do believe many foreign workers would like to have more opportunities to move here and become citizens and not have to come here under H-1B programs as their only real options too.

This is about raising work and living standards globally, not bringing down everyone's living standards to the countries that have the lowest cost of living that corporate bosses want to race us all to the bottom to to set living and environmental standards.

[Skittles]

39. lots of Americans would like opportunities to have jobs

this "we can't find the talent here" and "raising standards globally" is BULLSHIT excuses used by people who PROFIT from pimping American jobs

[antigop]

33. just another day of bullshit in the lives of tech/IT workers. Yeah, let's keep voting for corporate

Dems.

[MisterP]

36. STEM shortage! STEM shortage! STEM SHORTAGE (say it enough and enough will believe it)

[antigop]

38. The STEM crisis is a myth

http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth

[cascadiance]

43. French and Spanish languages have been emphasized in high school. German now should be!

If high school kids learn german as a second language, they can be better prepared for an option to get free college education in Germany...

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/10/01/3574551/germany-free-college-tuition/http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/10/01/3574551/germany-free-college-tuition/

... and be in a better position to get a graduate degree instead of just going in to debt here getting a bachelor's here in the U.S. Then at least cost-wise, they'll be more on an even playing field with other foreign workers in places like Germany, India, etc. that have their bachelor's degrees paid for which we SHOULD also have here, but corporatist bastard politicians stand in the way of doing anything to benefit anyone but their 1% slave owners.

They like to have a market driven system that has the market dictate where people do business. Well, high school teachers and administrators should realize that their governments are working against American citizens getting a decent affordable college education here in the U.S. and work towards helping their students be best prepared for the market where maybe traveling to Germany are American high school students' best options until the fascists and their effects on our government can be weeded out and the system fixed here.

And if they want, they could perhaps even stay and work in Germany afterward, where by law, if a business there is of a certain size or larger, they are required to have half of that company's board be representatives of the employees. A built in union by law there!

And look how German auto workers are paid compared to American auto workers!

Thom Hartmann writes about why Germany AND its workforce is doing so much better, and might be a better place to move to until we can get rid of the BS in ours!

http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2012/01/transcript-thom-hartmann-europe-near-collapse-why-germany-doing-just-fine-4-january-12