Things That Can And Cannot Be Said

[polly7]

By Arundhati Roy and John Cusack
Source: Outlook India
November 18, 2015

AR: Just since 9/11…we’re supposed to forget whatever happened in the past because 9/11 is where history begins. Okay, since 2001, how many wars have been started, how many countries have been destroyed? So now ISIS is the new evil—but how did that evil begin? Is it more evil to do what ISIS is doing, which is to go around massacring people—mainly, but not only, Shi’a—slitting throats? By the way, the US-backed militias are doing similar things, except they don’t show beheadings of white folks on TV. Or is it more evil to contaminate the water supply, to bomb a place with depleted uranium, to cut off the supply of medicines, to say that half a million children dying from economic sanctions is a “hard price”, but “worth it”?

JC: Madeleine Albright said so—about Iraq.

AR: Yes. Iraq. Is it alright to force a country to disarm, and then bomb it? To continue to create mayhem in the area? To pretend that you are fighting radical Islamism, when you’re actually toppling all the regimes that are not radical Islamist regimes? Whatever else their faults may be, they were not radical Islamist states—Iraq was not, Syria is not, Libya was not. The most radical fundamentalist Islamist state is, of course, your ally Saudi Arabia. In Syria, you’re on the side of those who want to depose Assad, right? And then suddenly, you’re with Assad, wanting to fight ISIS. It’s like some crazed, bewildered, rich giant bumbling around in a poor area with his pockets stuffed with money, and lots of weapons—just throwing stuff around. You don’t even really know who you’re giving it to—which murderous faction you are arming against which—feeling very relevant when actually…. All this destruction that has come in the wake of 9/11, all the countries that have been bombed…it ignites and magnifies these ancient antagonisms. They don’t necessarily have to do with the United States; they pre-date the existence of the United States by centuries. But the United States is unable to understand how irrelevant it is, actually. And how wicked…. Your short-term gains are the rest of the world’s long-term disasters—for everybody, including yourselves. And, I’m sorry, I’ve been saying you and the United States or America, when I actually mean the US government. There’s a difference. Big one.

JC: Yeah.

AR: Conflating the two the way I just did is stupid…walking into a trap—it makes it easy for people to say, “Oh, she’s anti-American, he’s anti-American”, when we’re not. Of course not. There are things I love about America. Anyway, what is a country? When people say, “Tell me about India”, I say, “Which India?…. The land of poetry and mad rebellion? The one that produces haunting music and exquisite textiles? The one that invented the caste system and celebrates the genocide of Muslims and Sikhs and the lynching of Dalits? The country of dollar billionaires? Or the one in which 800 million live on less than half-a-dollar a day? Which India?” When people say “America”, which one? Bob Dylan’s or Barack Obama’s? New Orleans or New York? Just a few years ago India, Pakistan and Bangladesh were one country. Actually, we were many countries if you count the princely states…. Then the British drew a line, and now we’re three countries, two of them pointing nukes at each other—the radical Hindu bomb and the radical Muslim bomb.

Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/980365/

[guillaumeb]

1. Recommended. Z is a great source.

Just a few years ago India, Pakistan and Bangladesh were one country. Actually, we were many countries if you count the princely states…. Then the British drew a line, and now we’re three countries, two of them pointing nukes at each other—the radical Hindu bomb and the radical Muslim bomb.

This excerpt here, especially the words "Then the British drew a line", is a very concise summary of the essence of colonialism. As in India, in Africa also, and the Middle East. The national boundaries in the Middle East were drawn by two colonial powers, Britain and France. The boundaries were drawn for the convenience of imperialists, and were drawn irrespective of tribal, linguistic, or historical facts. The consequences of this colonial interference are still motivating actors today. Or rather on 13 November, 2015, in Paris.

[libdem4life]

2. This is where, who and when it started. Western meddling after WW1.

[yurbud]

13. actually, some lines were drawn to intentionally including antagonistic groups

If there was a majority and minority group in a country, someone from the minority would be placed in power, so they would always need the support of the colonial powers to stay in power.

This was the case with the Tutsis in Rwanda and at least initially, Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

I think this is also why the Iraq War was considered such a massive blunder: the Shia majority gained control of the government, which even more than their cultural and political affinity to Iran means that they can have a measure of stability that makes it harder for colonial powers to pressure and manipulate them the way a minority ruler could be.

[guillaumeb]

15. An excellent point that I did not make.

But yes, including numerous linguistic groups in an entity artificially created by outsiders is often a guarantee of problems.

[yurbud]

16. just realized in a bigger sense, this applies to Israel in Middle East

We arm an ethnic minority to police the region.

[guillaumeb]

18. Agreed. Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt are all US proxies in that region. eom

[yurbud]

19. difference with Israel is they can't just blend in to the neighborhood if we withdraw our support

they wouldn't be overrun or bullied since they have nukes, but they might be forced to make peace on reasonable terms.

[guillaumeb]

20. The absolute horror of your statement:

"but they might be forced to make peace on reasonable terms."

Some Israelis, Netanyahu prominent among them, would argue that reasonable terms includes the right to steal all of the Palestinian land that has value. And some at DU agree with that, as any visit to the Israel/Palestine group will show.

[yurbud]

21. yep. And probably some that argue that actually believe it.

[bananas]

3. Great photo: John Cusack brings Arundhati Roy and Daniel Ellsberg to meet Edward Snowden

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Room 1001, Ritz Carlton, Moscow: Edward Snowden’s exiled quarters where actor-writer John Cusack brings Arundhati and Dan Ellsberg to meet him–Ole Von Uexküll

[polly7]

4. Thanks, bananas. Great picture.

Wouldn't it be great to be there with those four? I can just imagine the conversation.

[yurbud]

14. wow.

[forest444]

5. Frankly, Allbright is the kind of person that gives Democrats a bad name.

The only thing going for her really, is that she's not as bad as a Republican.

[polly7]

6. That reply still gives me chills. I can't imagine any human being with a soul believing such

a horrible thing.

[forest444]

8. She drank the Kool-Aid.

I still believe she's decent - at her core. I just think she got too ambitious.

[polly7]

11. Not sure about that.

I couldn't stomach knowing my beliefs and policies were harming one child .......... anywhere. Half a million? Not sure there's any decency involved in reaching that kind of conclusion.

[forest444]

12. You're absolutely right: her crass "worth it" response was unconscionable.

But she wasn't always that callous in her actions. Albright had a central role in enacting the Oil for Food and Medicine Program with Iraq, which substantially alleviated the effects of Poppy Bush's vindictive sanctions. She was also the chief architect of Clinton's intervention in Kosovo - which, for all its many flaws, saved hundreds of thousands of Albanians from certain death.

That said, she should never have mentioned Iraq's calamity in those terms. It'll probably always be what people will most remember her by.

[stupidicus]

7. the painful truth is

what they are doing is dwarfed by what we've done in the pursuit and maintenance of empire in terms of total numbers regarding loss of human life and needless human misery

I'm opposed to all violence of this sort, but one must be real with the numbers.

[passiveporcupine]

9. this thread is so depressing

Facing this real phenomenon...this interruption of other nation's march, to bend them to our will, has such horrible repercussions, yet we block it willingly, because it's too hard to actually face it head on and acknowledge it. So much of history is suppressed, because it's just too painful to keep in in front of us and dwell on it.

I love the humans in my small world, but when I think of the awful things humans have done on a large scale, it makes me shudder with grief. When you are looking at it on a large scale, you lose the humanity. It just becomes numbers and goals with no feelings.

This is why local government needs to be strong, and federal government needs to be influenced more by local government. This is why corporations need to be kept to a managable size. Once a business gets too big, it's just like a government that no longer sees "people", just major goals like profit, or conquest.

[dixiegrrrrl]

10. This is a 2 part article, and marvelous to read.

Who knew...... John Cusack? Nice discovery about him.

[KoKo]

17. K&R! Yes....the Dust Bunnies Swept Under Carpet or Sucked up into Nowhere!

Thanks, Polly 7..........The Times We Live In where Fascist Leaning Oligarch, Donald Trump has MSM and Average Americans hanging onto his Every Bleat!

I'm not denigrating animals that BLEAT....but just saying that he has a "broken record" that can be incomprehensible.