Could Joe Biden pick Barack Obama as his running mate? Yes. But.

[elleng]

August 6, 2015

'Could Joe Biden seek to goose his not-yet-existent presidential campaign by adding Barack Obama to the ticket? Or, along the same lines, could we see Hillary Clinton-Bill Clinton face off against Jeb Bush-George W. Bush? And, like, can you even imagine?

The answer seems to be pretty straightforward. The 12th Amendment to the Constitution states that "no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States." And the 22nd Amendment, the political response to Franklin Roosevelt's impressive run of presidential victories, capped presidents to two terms. Ergo: No Clinton-Clinton or Bush-Bush. Or Biden-Obama, for that matter. Done and done, right?

The answer seems straightforward. But it is less straightforward than it appears.

Michael Dorf is a professor of constitutional law at Cornell University. In 2000, he argued that an Al Gore-Bill Clinton ticket could withstand legal scrutiny. And when we spoke by phone on Thursday, he said that he stood by that argument.

The rough outline of his argument is this: The 22nd Amendment doesn't say you can't be president for more than two terms. It says you can't be elected president twice. If a Biden-Obama ticket won (which we'll get to), and tragedy were to befall Joe Biden, Barack Obama could become president, according to the letter of the law (which we'll also get to), since he wasn't elected to the position. As such, Obama is not constitutionally ineligible to serve as president.

What's more, Dorf said, the case of Powell v. McCormack in 1968 established precedent for a narrow reading of what constitutes "eligibility." . . .

"I interpret the Powell case to mean that when the Constitution refers to 'qualifications,' or whether someone is 'qualified' for an office, that's a kind of term of art," Dorf said. "When we learn that the vice president has to have the qualifications for the office of the presidency, that is also a term of art. We look to the part of the Constitution that tells us what it takes to be qualified to be president, and not having served two prior terms is not among them."

"The 22nd Amendment, to my mind, is a sort of stand-alone provision," he continued. And that provision says "elected." "The drafters of this language knew the difference between getting elected to an office and holding an office. They could have just said 'no person may hold the office of president more than twice.' But they didn't."'>>>

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/08/06/could-joe-biden-pick-barack-obama-as-his-running-mate-yes-but/?utm_term=.64b1a78a9c70


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, folks, food for thought (if we need such!!!)

[hlthe2b]

1. Interesting.. I wish someone with twitter access could try to get Laurence Tribe to weigh in.

[Totally Tunsie]

2. There's a huge hole in this argument.

Constitutionally, there is a 10 year limit on anyone's service as President. Someone who has served two full terms would not be eligible to be VP due to the fact there is no guarantee that his President would serve more than half his term. If, say, President dies after first year in office, leaving three years remaining, his (two term served as President) VP would be ineligible to serve out the three remaining years. Thus, Barack Obama could not constitutionally run as VP.

[link:Amendment XXII |

Amendment XXII
Two-Term Limit on Presidency

Passed by Congress March 21, 1947. Ratified February 27, 1951


Section 1

No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more than once.

Amendment XXII - The United States Constitution


https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/amendments/amendment-xxii

Passed by Congress in 1947, and ratified by the states on February 27, 1951, the Twenty-Second Amendment limits an elected president to two terms in office, a total of eight years. However, it is possible for an individual to serve up to ten years as president.

[LakeSuperiorView]

11. I think you are missing a point of the OP.

Amendment XXII
Two-Term Limit on Presidency

Passed by Congress March 21, 1947. Ratified February 27, 1951


Section 1

No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more than once.

Very clearly, Obama can not be elected to the office of President again. There is nothing that says he can not be elected to the office of Vice President. In the stated scenario, if a Biden/Obama ticket were elected to the offices of President/Vice President (no language prevents this) and Biden were struck by lightening immediately after inauguration, Obama would become President via succession, but since he was not elected to the office of President, there is no crisis. Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao being born in Taiwan and 14th in line of succession to Trump is an actual problem. Obama being elected to the office of Vice President is not.

[Totally Tunsie]

12. I'm afraid you are incorrect.

There is a 10 year limit on anyone serving as President. What this means is that if someone ascends to the presidency for a period of less than two years, he/she may then be elected for two terms. However, if someone has already served two terms, they are ineligible to be VP because there is a possibility that they could overrun the 10 year limit. In the scenario you gave:

"...Biden were struck by lightening immediately after inauguration, Obama would become President via succession."

Obama would then be serving 12 years as president which is NOT constitutionally possible.

Examples:
Gerald Ford could be elected for only 1 term as president because he served 2 years, 4 months of Nixon's presidency. His total term would be 6 years, 4 months.

Lyndon Johnson could be elected to 2 terms as president because he served 1 year of Kennedy's term. His total term would be 9 years.

Barach Obama served 2 terms as president. Thus he is ineligible to be VP since he is unable to ascend to the presidency for more than 2 years. There would be no guarantee that the president under whom he is serving would be in office for at least a 2 year period. If his president were to die (or otherwise be removed from office) within the first 2 years, that would necessitate Obama to serve more than 2 years, thus taking him over the 10 year constitutional limit for presidency.

Amendment XXII
Two-Term Limit on Presidency

Passed by Congress March 21, 1947. Ratified February 27, 1951


Section 1

No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more than once.

BTW, Welcome to DU.

[LakeSuperiorView]

13. There is no limit on serving as President, only being "elected to the office of President".

The language of the limit is on being elected to the office of President as opposed to serving as President. There is nothing in the 22nd Amendment that limits serving as president. It does address serving as President, but only as a condition of being elected as President. It does not limit serving.

You said "Thus he is ineligible to be VP since he is unable to ascend to the presidency for more than 2 years." Please cite where a 10 year limit serving as President exists in the Constitution. The 22nd Ammendment states that a President that served 2 terms can not be elected to the office of President, but becoming the President via succession is not being elected. Gerald Ford was never elected to the office of President (or Vice President, for that matter).

The OP is correct.

[Totally Tunsie]

14. NOT TRUE!

Passed by Congress in 1947, and ratified by the states on February 27, 1951, the Twenty-Second Amendment limits an elected president to two terms in office, a total of eight years. However, it is possible for an individual to serve up to ten years as president.


Amendment XXII - The United States Constitution
https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/amendments/amendment-xxii

How Many Years Can Someone Serve as U.S. President? - ThoughtCo
A president is limited to serving for 10 years in office. He or she can only be elected to two full terms according to the 22nd amendment to the US Constitution. However, if an individual becomes president through the order of succession, then they are allowed to serve an additional two years.Mar 5, 2018

https://www.thoughtco.com/why-presidents-only-serve-two-terms-3367979

What is the longest one can be President of the United States ...
10 years is the maximum limit; two times is the maximum number a person can be elected to the High Office. Period. HOWEVER, if the sitting vice president assumes the office of president and serves only two years or less (730 days or less), then he or she may run for two more terms.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-longest-one-can-be-President-of-the-United-States-...

Text of the 22nd Amendment
This section is the text of the amendment in its original English. It is not in Simple English.
Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more than once.

Honestly, I don't know how many more examples to give you. 10 YEAR MAXIMUM LIMIT
You are citing an opinion of one person - Michael Dorf, a professor. "He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches." - George Bernard Shaw. I am citing the Constitution.



I suggest you call your senators' office.

[LakeSuperiorView]

15. I suggest you simply read the Ammedment.

It plainly limits being elected to the office of President.

No mention of a ten year limit serving.

Your limit is based on your opinion of what the Amendment should do and not what it actually states. Both Bushes and Obama are not prevented from being elected as Vice President. The qualifications for running for offices of President and Vice President are silent on previous service or election to office.

You have been unable to cite your 10 year limit in the amendment because it does not exist. Several web sites having incorrect interpretations of the amendment is not citing the constitution.


Read the amendment. It clearly states "shall not be elected" not "shall not serve".

[Totally Tunsie]

16. One more time.

You're reading only HALF of the Amendment. It DOES limit the time of serving by allowing only 2 elected terms and NO MORE THAN 2 years of a succession period, thus limiting to a maximum of 10 years - 2 elected terms + less than 2 years of succession (730 days). Otherwise, there would be no reason to even mention the two years of succession. It would state unlimited number of years of succession, or not bother to mention it at all. But it is there...in the Amendment.

Text of the 22nd Amendment
This section is the text of the amendment in its original English. It is not in Simple English.
Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more than once.

If it were possible to serve more than 10 years, there would be no mention of the "two years of a term to which some other person was elected President". That is the section that comprises the 10 year limit - 2 terms + less than 2 years. It is clearly stated that someone who has served "more than two years..." in a succession can be elected ONLY ONCE.

[link:https://constitution.laws.com/22nd-amendment|

The 22nd Amendment states that no personal shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice and no person who has already held office—or acted as the president of the United States—for more than two years of a term shall be elected President more than once.

The primary motive of this amendment was to establish term limits; the 22nd Amendment to the United States Constitution states that no US President shall be elected to more than two terms. Furthermore, the 22nd Amendment limits the maximum time an individual may be serve as President to 10 years, if the person should succeed to the office.

The sections in the grayed area are quotations and summaries of the Amendment. These areas are not just my opinion. Every authority, other than the one professor previously stated, concurs that there is a 10 year limit: 2 elected terms and no more than an additional 730 days. I have quoted statute after statute.

Were it other than 2 years + 730 days, theoretically a person could be elected president twice and then serve unlimited times as VP ascending to the presidency over and over and over again. This is simply not so. You state I have not shown a limit...I have, many times. Now, you show me where there are unlimited number of years that can be served after 2 elected terms. You can't. You may be reading the Amendment, but you are not comprehending it.

[LakeSuperiorView]

17. One more time: "shall be elected" not "shall serve".

Your premise assumes that the authors of the 22nd amendment believed the only route to the office of President was being elected.

You have only quoted web site after web site, which have no bearing on constitutional law.

The 22nd amendment has no mention of the office of Vice President. It limits the number of times a person can be elected to the office of President. Some people go on to create the notion that a previous two term President is ineligible to be elected as Vice President although there is no language in the constitution or amendments that prevents that from happening. The literal language does not prevent it.

I have asked you numerous times to provide the language that prevents a person being elected president twice and then serve unlimited times as VP ascending to the presidency over and over and over again. You have quoted web site after web site, but have not been able to cite actual law. You are not comprehending the 22nd amendment - it limits being elected to the office of President. Period. Not the office of Vice President.

"Now, you show me where there are unlimited number of years that can be served after 2 elected terms." As there is no law that prevents it, it is possible. There is no law that creates term limits for the office of Vice President.


We can go on disagreeing all week - until the situation is actually attempted, a former President running for Vice President and the situation is decided by the Supreme Court, this will remain unanswered. The literal interpretation is on the side of Michael Dorf. The opposing view is only created by adding interpretations not spelled out in the law. I'll stick with Michael Dorf.

[Totally Tunsie]

18. 2 terms + -2 years MAX 10 years. Period.

What do you not understand about 10 year maximum, as quoted from many sources? You have yet to show me anywhere that it states a president can serve unlimited years. I've excerpted from the Amendment itself, constitutional law websites, etc. etc. Show "actual law" that supports your opinion. You can't. I've shown you in the actual Amendment where it states 2 terms + 2 years only to be served as president. You haven't shown anywhere, including the Amendment itself, where this is not the case. Present your evidence.

Until you can show me an actual statement of law that says a president may serve more than 10 years, this conversation is at a stalemate.

Text of the 22nd Amendment
This section is the text of the amendment in its original English. It is not in Simple English.
Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more than once

Thus: elected twice...2 years of succession. 10 YEARS
Has nothing to do with being elected VP. Has EVERYTHING to do with term limits.

Got it?

[LakeSuperiorView]

19. Again, what specific language prevents a former President from running for Vice President?

You can't cite it because it does not exist. It simply is not disallowed.

Your 10 year limit prevents a person from being ELECTED TO THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT.

Therefore, a former President is allowed to run for VP, regardless of number of terms. You even agree with me, "Has nothing to do with being elected VP." George the Lesser and Obama could run for VP. George the Elder could run for VP. NOTHING prevents this.

If you know of some language that disqualifies a person from running for VP for anything other than being convicted in an impeachment case, gone to war against the US, not being a natural born US citizen, not being older than 35, not living in the US for 14 years, you would have cited it. You haven't because it simply does not exist.

The only way your ten year limit comes into play is if you ignore what is plainly stated, that it prevents one from being elected to the offfice of President. If one is not elected to the office of President, the 22nd amendment has no bearing.

Like I previously stated, we can disagree on this forever. Our opinions don't mean anything. That stated, my view rests on the literal language. Yours rests on constructions not specifically spelled out in the law.

[Totally Tunsie]

20. In your initial premise, you gave the example of

Last edited Fri Jul 20, 2018, 03:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Biden/Obama ticket with Biden "struck by lightening" on Day 1. If Obama filled out the entire term, he would thus serve a total of 12 years, which is not allowable. What would you do...hold a special election after the 2 years? Of course not. That's why the 22 Amendment states two elections, plus serving no more than 2 years of another president's term, effectively making a 10 year maximum.. That's why the "two years of a term to which some other person was elected President" is in the Amendment itself. These two years are the ascension period.

The only way possible to serve 10 years is to ascend to presidency, fulfill that term for less than 2 years, and then be elected twice. It doesn't work in reverse. Once he/she has served 2 full terms, they cannot serve more than another 2 years. In such case if they were VP, there can be no guarantee that the president they are serving under will be in office for more than 2 years. That president could die on Day 1 and the VP could not serve out the 4 years without going over the 10 year maximum.

Presidential Terms Defined In 22nd Amendment
The relevant section of the 22nd Amendment defining presidential terms reads:
"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more than once."

[link:https://www.thoughtco.com/why-presidents-only-serve-two-terms-3367979|

A president is limited to serving for 10 years in office. He or she can only be elected to two full terms according to the 22nd amendment to the US Constitution. However, if an individual becomes president through the order of succession, then they are allowed to serve an additional two years

.

][link:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2016-why-cant-obama-stay-on-three-terms-instead-barack-clinton-trump-president-a7405551.html|

The 22nd amendment of the United States constitution, ratified in 1951, states: “No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice”.And if someone takes over as President for two years or more, such as when Vice President Gerald Ford stepped in after President Richard Nixon’s resignation in 1973, they can then only be re-elected once.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_limits_in_the_United_States#President

President Limited to being elected to a total of 2 four-year terms. A President by succession who completes more than two years of a former President's unfinished term may be elected in his or her own right only once, and 2 more four-year terms are permitted if they complete two years or less

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_office#Federal
Main article: Federal government of the United States

In the United States, the president of the United States is elected indirectly through the United States Electoral College to a four-year term, with a term limit of two terms (totaling eight years) or a maximum of ten years if the president acted as president for two years or less in a term where another was elected as president, imposed by the Twenty-second Amendment to the United States Constitution, ratified in 1951.

You stated:
(1)"George the Lesser and Obama could run for VP."
INCORRECT: They have served for 8 years each, and are eligible to serve only another 2 years as president. Could not ascend from VP after serving as president.

(2)"George the Elder could run for VP."
CORRECT: He has served 4 years and can serve 6 more as president. Can be elected again OR serve as VP and ascend to presidency. If his ascension period is less than 2 years, he could then also be elected again as president. If he were to rise to the presidency and serve more than 2 years (730 days), then he cannot be elected as president again.

(3)"Your 10 year limit prevents a person from being ELECTED TO THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT."
He can serve 10 years in any way, shape or form, BUT NO MORE THAN THAT. Election, succession...whatever - a TOTAL of 10 years.

(4)You keep stating I have not cite any sources, which is untrue. I have cited the 22 Amendment itself and have given you more above, in addition to all I've cited previously.

I've asked you to cite your sources or present your evidence. You have presented no source and cited NOTHING.

Since your posting name is LakeSuperior View, I'm going to go out on a limb and presume you may live in either Minnesota or Wisconsin'
MINNESOTA:
Sen. Amy Klobuchar [phone]
Sen. Tina Smith [phone]
WISCONSIN:
Sen. Tammy Baldwin [phone]
Sen. Ron Johnson [phone]
I'm sure their offices would be happy to help you.

[LakeSuperiorView]

21. You are the one who has it backwards.

I have not had to cite anything other than the 22nd Amendment. The language is very clear and contains nothing about a maximum term of ten years. In order to synthesize a 10 year maximum, one must presume that having previously served as president is a disqualification from being elected Vice President. I have asked you to provide the language that bars a previous President from being elected as Vice President and you have not, because it does not exist. This renders your argument null of content.

The "no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President " is a condition limiting said person to one term of being elected president. It has no other meaning other than as this condition.

The ascension crap, you are creating that from whole cloth.

Simplified, one can only be elected President twice. If you served more than two years of the term someone else was elected to, you can only be elected President once.

No disqualification of previous Presidents being elected to Vice President. No mention of a ten year limit of serving.

It's very clear, the prohibitions in the 22nd Amendment are on BEING ELECTED, not on serving. The people who write our laws are very educated, if they meant one can only serve 10 years, they would have clearly spelled that out instead of writing a law that does not prevent serving more than ten years.

For the third time, we can disagree about this forever. I can see that you are a person who insists on the last word, so go ahead and make another tortured argument about things that do not exist in the language of the 22nd amendment and have a nice weekend.

[marble falls]

3. Could Hillary Clinton choose Joe Biden for VP?

[Totally Tunsie]

4. Yes. Joe Biden has never served as President

and would be eligible to serve as Hillary Clinton's VP, as well as President on his own for two terms if he so chose.

[marble falls]

5. I was asking that to bring up the point that there are other suitible choices ...

that aren't just one or two men.

[Totally Tunsie]

6. Sorry. That wasn't clear in your question.

[marble falls]

7. Sometimes I ask leading questions. Of course we really need to focus on November ...

cheetolini might not continue to be the ripe source for a Democratic backlash all by himself. We need to take a Congress that is designed to thwart us by gerrymandering to whoever it is we elect in 2020 to the White House. At the same time we have a lot of good possibilities for POTUS who don't look like me and Joe Biden.

Hell, when do we get Al Franken back into office again, Gov Franken has a nice ring about it.

[RainCaster]

8. Joe could pick Obama for SCOTUS

That would be Great

[AZ8theist]

9. That would be the IDEAL scenario....

While adding 2 more LIBERAL justices to the court to make it 11. Fuck Gorsuck and KavenAGH.

But I think that BHO is too smart, too principled to hang around should the Russians rat-fuck the midterms and keep the traitors in power.

If I were him, I'd hightail it out of the Fascist States of AmeriKKKa as quick as I could.

I only wish I had the means to do so myself.

[PoliticAverse]

10. Not for Obama who has said he wouldn't want to be a Supreme Court justice. n/t