Opinion: 'We Are Closer To Civil War Than Any Of Us Would Like To Believe,' New Study Says
- Washington Post, Dana Milbank, Dec. 17, 2021. - Edited. 'How Civil Wars Start,' by Barbara F. Walter.
If you know people still in denial about the crisis of American democracy, kindly remove their heads from the sand long enough to receive this message: A startling new finding by one of the nations top authorities on foreign civil wars says we are on the cusp of our own. Barbara F. Walter, a political science professor at the Univ. of CA at San Diego, serves on a CIA advisory panel called the Political Instability Task Force that monitors countries around the world and predicts which of them are most at risk of deteriorating into violence. By law, the task force cant assess whats happening within the U.S., but Walter, a longtime friend who has spent her career studying conflicts in Syria, Lebanon, Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Rwanda, Angola, Nicaragua and elsewhere, applied the predictive techniques herself to this country. Her bottom line:
We are closer to civil war than any of us would like to believe. She lays out the argument in detail in her must-read book, How Civil Wars Start, out in January. No one wants to believe that their beloved democracy is in decline, or headed toward war, she writes.
But, if you were an analyst in a foreign country looking at events in America- the same way youd look at events in Ukraine or the Ivory Coast or Venezuela- you would go down a checklist, assessing each of the conditions that make civil war likely. And what you would find is that the U.S., a democracy founded more than two centuries ago, has entered very dangerous territory. Indeed, the U.S. has already gone through what the CIA identifies as the first 2 phases of insurgency- the pre-insurgency and incipient conflict phases- and only time will tell whether the final phase, open insurgency, began with the sacking of the Capitol by Trump supporters on Jan. 6. Things deteriorated so dramatically under Trump, in fact, that the U.S. no longer technically qualifies as a democracy.
Citing the Center for Systemic Peaces Polity data set- the one the CIA task force has found to be most helpful in predicting instability and violence- Walter writes that the U.S. is now an anocracy, somewhere between a democracy and an autocratic state. U.S. democracy had received the Polity indexs top score of 10, or close to it, for much of its history. But in the 5 years of the Trump era, it tumbled precipitously into the anocracy zone; by the end of his presidency, the U.S. score had fallen to a 5, making the country a partial democracy for the first time since 1800. We are no longer the worlds oldest continuous democracy, Walter writes. That honor is now held by Switzerland, followed by New Zealand, and then Canada. We are no longer a peer to nations like Canada, Costa Rica, and Japan, which are all rated a +10 on the Polity index.
Dropping 5 points in 5 years greatly increases the risk of civil war (6 points in 3 years would qualify as high risk of civil war). A partial democracy is 3 times as likely to experience civil war as a full democracy, Walter writes.
A country standing on this threshold- as America is now, at +5- can easily be pushed toward conflict through a combination of bad governance & increasingly undemocratic measures that further weaken its institutions.
The Stockholm-based International Institute for Democracy put the U.S. on a list of backsliding democracies in a report last month. A new survey by the academic consortium Bright Line Watch found that 17% of those who identify strongly as Republicans support the use of violence to restore Trump to power, and 39% favor doing everything possible to prevent Democrats from governing effectively.
The question now is whether we can pull back from the abyss Trumps Republicans have led us to. Democracy is the foundation of everything else in America. It is no exaggeration to say the survival of our country is at stake...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/17/how-civil-wars-start-barbara-walter-research/
________
- Also: 'Republicans are plotting to destroy democracy from within.' Opinion, Capitol Attack, by Lawrence Douglas, The Guardian, Dec. 17, 2021. Opportunism and cowardice has more than sufficed to make Republicans espouse a noxious falsehood as an axiomatic truth.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/17/republicans-plotting-destroy-democracy
Fiendish Thingy
(15,651 posts)Because, AFAIK, there has never been one, and I dont think there ever will be.
Military coup? Yes.
Ongoing Civil unrest/Domestic Terror? Yes.
But not a Civil War with two armies battling each other for control of the government and/or territory.
The Gravy Seals wouldnt stand a chance against even a small portion of the US armed forces, especially the Air Force.
WestIndianArchie
(386 posts)Now that's funny! lololol
dpibel
(2,852 posts)What makes you so sure that the military would be wholly loyal?
Remember where Robert E. Lee started his career...
I've heard tell that there's a strong right-wing presence in the US military, maybe even some downright secessionists.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,651 posts)If some rogue general tries to command a
what, a battalion? Against Union loyalist forces, who do you think would prevail? Who would control Americas nukes in such a scenario? Do you know how that whole system works?
It might get bloody, but such a scenario would likely be over in hours.
IMO, its far more likely the military would prop up either a dictator, or enforce martial law in occupied rebel states.
Then, instead of a civil war, you get the American version of Irelands troubles.
appalachiablue
(41,168 posts)IMO, its far more likely the military would prop up either a dictator, or enforce martial law in occupied rebel states.
Then, instead of a civil war, you get the American version of Irelands troubles.
dpibel
(2,852 posts)"The potential for a total breakdown of the chain of command along partisan lines from the top of the chain to squad level is significant should another insurrection occur. The idea of rogue units organizing among themselves to support the rightful commander in chief cannot be dismissed."
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)The Christian Takeover of the U.S. Military
For years, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation has noted the growing efforts by evangelicals to turn the U.S. military into an instrument of their ideology and worldview. While not all evangelicals believe the same, the far more radicalized tend toward a belief called dominionism a wish to turn America into a nation perhaps not run as a theocratic state but at least run by extreme Christian beliefs, the military included. Hence the reason Pence, with the help of the Family Research Council and the Heritage Foundation, produced a report full of bad anti-transgender science and myths in order to justify the ban. This is not the first time military policy and leadership have been guided not by military regulations and the law but by evangelical proselytizing and beliefs.
For instance, in 2005 it emerged that evangelical cadets at the U.S. Air Force Academy were being urged to proselytize their fellows, warning them they would burn in hell without Jesus. Other allegations included prayers during mandatory meetings, public shaming, and leaders teaching witness classes to cadets. At one point, 41 percent of non-Christian Air Force cadets reported unwanted proselytizing. The Military Religious Freedom Foundation discovered a video in 2006 used to promote Christian groups that was filmed inside the Pentagon and featured uniformed generals. An investigation found the films purpose was misrepresented by an Army chaplain and listed numerous violations of DOD policy. The Army has come under extensive criticism for the inclusion of a spiritual aspect in its Comprehensive Soldier Fitness program, which evaluates soldier readiness, and has been accused of veiling the religious element with ambiguous language. Reports continually surface of soldiers being denied or threatened with a ban on reenlistment if they do not include references to God (which by regulation are optional).
Full Interview Powerful Christian Nationalists in Military See Trump as Vehicle for Authoritarian Religious State Mikey Weinstein
Christian fundamentalist nationalists in the senior ranks of the military, see Trump as an instrument of Gods plan to create an authoritarian Christian state. The military allows active proselytizing and recruitment of soldiers, contrary to the constitutional separation of church and state. Many of these officers and soldiers were involved in the events leading up to and on Jan 6th, which has been described as an attempted coup. Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation joins Paul Jay on theAnalysis.news
Ive reported on many other sources that shared the same concern, so I wont go over all that again here. But in the media coverage of the events leading up to, and including, the storming of Capitol Hill, while theres been quite a bit of talk about the far-right, white supremacists, and Nazis, even by active and retired military leaders at the highest levels, theres not been much focus on the extent this growing movement is made up of followers of Christian religious extremists, many of whom are openly for dropping the separation of church and state and making the military an army for their version of Christ.
In an interview I did with Joe Wilson in 2019, in fact it would be the last interview he did before he died, I spoke to Ambassador Wilson, who was the man who exposed the Niger uranium fraud that Bush and Cheney tried to use to justify the Iraq war. In the interview, I asked about the rise of religious extremism in the U.S. Military. Heres the quote from Wilson: For the evangelicals, not only is it a way for them to get back to the plains of Armageddon for the last great battle of the Apocalypse, but theyve managed to use this as a way to infiltrate the highest ranks of the military and to try and convert the military from an organization focused on the defense, national security, and the constitution of the country, to a military force fighting for their vision of Jesus Christ. They have penetrated the Chaplain Corps in ways that are absolutely disgusting. The responsibility of the Chaplains was always to minister to the needs of soldiers and their families in times of need, either in hospitals, grieving, or whatever, not to impose their view of what the right religion should be. But now, these guys do not minister. They proselytize. Then I ask, How successful have they been in infiltrating the military? Wilson answers, Way too successful. We fight that every day. I ask, And youre saying at the highest levels? And Wilson says, Oh, yeah. We were in the middle of a fight with a brigadier general who now runs a command and its all about Jesus. Its all about his vision of Jesus. And I think were in the middle of a legal fight with him right now. And I say, Whos we? And Wilson says, The Military Religious Freedom Foundation. I sit on the board with, among others, Larry Wilkerson. Its run by a guy by the name of Mikey Weinstein, whos Jewish, and who has suffered every possible indignity you could imagine from these evangelical nuts, including having dead rabbits thrown on his property and swastika signs painted on his wall. Yes, theyre very nasty. Theyre a nasty crowd. So that was all Joe Wilson, now back to me.
Q&A: "We're Dealing with a Christian Taliban"
Interview with Mikey Weinstein
Mikey Weinstein
Credit:Margery Epstein
WASHINGTON, Sep 7 (IPS) - Last month, the Pentagon pulled the plugon a plan to dispatch so-called "freedom packages" to U.S. troops in Iraq that included Bibles, proselytising materials in English and Arabic, and an apocalyptic computer game in which "soldiers for Christ" battle satanic "Global Community Peacekeepers".
The scheme was derailed in part because of the efforts of Mikey Weinstein, founder and president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which seeks to protect the wall separating church and state in the United States armed forces.
Weinstein, in his own words, is no "bleeding-heart liberal". He is a 1977 honor graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, and spent 10 years in the Air Force as a "JAG" or military attorney serving as both a federal prosecutor and criminal defence attorney.
A registered Republican, he also spent over three years in the Ronald Reagan administration as legal counsel in the White House, where he helped investigate the Iran-Contra scandal.
Martin Eden
(12,874 posts)As well as the rank and file are more likely to take sides with a "Christian" autocracy in a Constitional crisis.
PortTack
(32,787 posts)aeromanKC
(3,326 posts)Heck, we'll even throw in Oklahoma.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,651 posts)As well as conservative strongholds in the North?
Not a very well thought out scenario.
Irish_Dem
(47,300 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,651 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,300 posts)We are on our own.
paleotn
(17,939 posts)For a less bloody example, see the Czechoslovakian velvet divorce. A partition of the US is possible, probably likely. Nation states come and go. It's the natural order of things. And there's nothing special about the US that excludes us from that. The only real problem I have with it is it's a Russian and Chinese wet dream.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,651 posts)It wouldnt be a Mason-Dixon division, more like the coasts and some of the rust belt split from the south and plains states, but even that doesnt seem be feasible for a clean division.
Important questions to consider:
How is the military divided and funded, who gets nukes, planes, ships?
What happens to Social Security, Medicare, etc?
Its unanswerable-in-a-hypothetical questions like these that make me seriously sceptical that the US would ever be able to peacefully splinter into multiple nations.
dpibel
(2,852 posts)The poster you're replying to referenced the India/Pakistan partition, which involved millions of displaced people and hundreds of thousands, at least, deaths.
The simple fact is that countries do break apart, and the US is a country.
When countries break apart, it's usually not polite and peaceful.
As for the answer to your questions about who gets what, it's most likely whoever has territorial control. The Dakotas will gift the new Confederacy with a bunch of nukes. The Liberal States of America will have most of the Navy, what with controlling most of the seaports.
But the fact that it wouldn't be peaceful certainly doesn't mean it won't happen. And if you weren't implying that, I apologize for misunderstanding.
I think there are plenty of people who say, "This is America! If we can't break apart peacefully, then we shan't break apart." I think that is a wrong analysis. And, again, if that is not your analysis, excuse me.
paleotn
(17,939 posts)On day the Ukraine was Ukraine SSR. Not may days later it was the sovereign nation of Ukraine.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,651 posts)paleotn
(17,939 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,651 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,651 posts)But If you think the Dakotas would be allowed to gift nukes to the New Confederacy unimpeded, I think youre wrong.
The Dakotas would be incinerated before the Union/Liberal states would allow ICBMs to fall into the hands of the confederates.
paleotn
(17,939 posts)I'm old enough to remember when that was considered unthinkable. Ukraine has been part of Russia since the 17th century. Party of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Duchy of Lithuania before that. Now they find themselves as a sovereign nation. How'd that happen? Same with Belarus. My point is, things just as strange have happened. A US breakup doesn't have to be just two countries. 3 maybe 4 are plausible. And it doesn't have to be overnight. It could happen over the course of decades. The mechanisms to start that process already exist and are already in play. Interstate compacts for one. There's a ton of stuff states do together outside of federal control. Our Constitution limits federal power to a greater extent than nearly all of our allies. Most of which have no analog to US state power.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,651 posts)A third of which is owned by China.
Just one more reason why a dissolution of the US is extremely unlikely.
AncientAndy
(73 posts)There are stark regional differences in the makeup of our military, with the South contributing more than its fair share of personnel and the Northeast largely lagging behind, with a few exceptions
appalachiablue
(41,168 posts)Hard right voters in No. areas.
piddyprints
(14,648 posts)Perhaps some of us are stuck in the south and can't leave.
I_UndergroundPanther
(12,480 posts)There would be organizations that would pick up any liberal stuck in rethug hell and help them relocate.
The maga idiots and r monsters would want to grab r's from liberal areas
piddyprints
(14,648 posts)There is not another move in this old body. Our house is paid for and we have animals. It's ridiculous to think that we could be "relocated" as if we're a piece of furniture. Our daughter lives nearby and teaches at the university. They'll move her and find her new job? Who will buy hour houses?
All this talk of secession is ridiculous.
roamer65
(36,747 posts)We have more in common with Canada than we do shithole states like Alabama or Texass.
Response to aeromanKC (Reply #2)
traitorsgalore This message was self-deleted by its author.
ck4829
(35,082 posts)Girard442
(6,082 posts)...when it was mostly in the coastal (mostly Blue) states. The Trumpites were such shit-for-brains that they thought it would stay there.
3auld6phart
(1,049 posts)At least in most Civil uprisings their is a dividing line
Mason Dixon type separation. Like North and South
If a Civil War does happen it will be street fighting.Meth
mouthed armed to the nuts idiots, 90 % WASP scum
That one third have the guns and support of a majority
of the LEOs. Its bloody scary to think about.
Mr.Bill
(24,312 posts)of the majority of LEOs. Most of them are young people with families, and the last thing they want is a bloody conflict right where they live. Many of them are veterans of Middle Eastern conflicts and they don't want to see that here. They want to go to work, do their jobs, raise their families and put their kids through college. Do you think the revolutionary army will provide a California LEO with a six figure pension when he retires in his mid-50s?
lees1975
(3,876 posts)in a heartbeat if they could, because they know they are a minority and their shot at actually winning elections and getting their nut jobs in office is limited to the states which take more federal welfate than their taxpayers provide to the government, like Texas, Florida, South Carolina and so forth.
bucolic_frolic
(43,257 posts)and they own most of the guns. Find a way to alter that closed loop.
Dan
(3,579 posts)I would say this, some of them own a lot (seriously a lot) of guns, and most just own like the rest of the normal gun owners.
Mme. Defarge
(8,039 posts)The idea that such a catastrophe is unavoidable in America is inflammatory and corrosive.
By Fintan OToole
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/01/america-civil-war-prophecies/620850/
Lonestarblue
(10,050 posts)They have been stoking hatred of minorities and liberals for decades, long with and anti-government sentiment that was reinforced by Reagan. Republicans have cultivated groups like the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Constitutional Sheriffs, etc.all groups eager to overturn a legally elected government and establish their own version of right-wing repression of anyone and everyone they do not like, which is mostly all women who arent submissive, all LGBTQ, all minorities, and anyone who is liberal or educated.
I dont know how this ends, but I fear it will be violent.
appalachiablue
(41,168 posts)It's been a 30-40 year process, Trump was the flaming apex.
Auggie
(31,182 posts)Social Security: privatized
Medicare: privatized
Affordable Health Care Act: overturned
National Highway system: mostly toll roads
Local water systems: many privatized
Tax cuts for the wealthy: permanent
Protected lands: diminished
EPA, OSHA, FDA, CDC, ETC: powerless
Elections: rigged to favor capitalists
erronis
(15,326 posts)Maybe not all states. Most of California will be difficult to takeover.
appalachiablue
(41,168 posts)How the antigov agenda would be accomplished, whether by political or violent means or both is a critical issue. People better realize what's taking place, the realities and and all that's involved in moving to authoritarian rule.
A tall order esp. with the rampant propaganda system, Covid, more. But people can't give up or remain passive and ignorant. There must be more education, truth and engagement in our political and social systems, now.
Defending democracy and averting possible civil war are realities we face. GOTV is imperative, then more major efforts to strengthen our democratic nation, before it's too late.
hay rick
(7,636 posts)Division and hate are just tools to keep the electorate fragmented and powerless. Actual civil war would be destructive of the self-interest of the GOP's owners. They are playing with fire.
Martin Eden
(12,874 posts)Did you read Tommymac's post earlier in this thread with the long quotes from articles about the rise of radical Christians in the US military?
In the next Constitional crisis, instead of a General Milley to protect the fort of our democracy the radical Christian leadership in our military could be the key to installing Trump (or some other RW autocratic like DeSantis) when the presidential election is contested -- which it most definitely will be if the D's win.
Red states are already making it possible to toss out votes or overturn results if claims of fraud surface, which they will.
Oligarchs and radical Christians may have different motivations and beliefs, but they are on the same side in their fight against liberal democracy.
This kind of war can be won with that kind of coalition.
IronLionZion
(45,508 posts)The civil war types need to huddle in close together and breathe deep.
Traildogbob
(8,791 posts)Covid will slaughter most of em.
appmanga
(577 posts)...if we simply buy into the narrative this started with Trump.
" Walter writes that the U.S. is now an anocracy, somewhere between a democracy and an autocratic state". The drift toward autocracy got it's strongest push when Mitch McConnell made the decision that Republicans will be the only ones to choose ambassadors, cabinet members, and judges. In action, McConnell is as much of an authoritarian as Donald Trump and has been much more successful at it.
The Democrats who love the filibuster better think hard and long about whether a rule is more important than democracy itself because they're not going to get another chance to prevent the civil unrest that will be coming. There are people who are Democrats who are not afraid or intimidated by the right-wingers and MAGA goons and are prepared to fight them on their terms.
appalachiablue
(41,168 posts)the growth and influence of RW Think Tanks, Heritage, the Kochs, ALEC, Milton Friedman and all have been in progress for at least 30-40 years.
dpibel
(2,852 posts)It's a never ending mystery to me how that gets treated as a triumph of The American Way.
No tanks in the street!
So no problem with the steal.
appalachiablue
(41,168 posts)onetexan
(13,056 posts)DownriverDem
(6,231 posts)will run out like last time.
Crowman2009
(2,499 posts)Because a lot of those gravy seals wouldn't stand a chance at living without them. So they sure as hell wouldn't have any once their precious civil war starts.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)That if they start a civil war, they probably won't get their Social Security checks for the duration and if they win, not even after. And even if they do, they will be worthless.
And these are the same people who can't handle a shortage of toilet paper.
Response to ThoughtCriminal (Reply #33)
traitorsgalore This message was self-deleted by its author.
SarcasticSatyr
(1,182 posts)In the Navy, 1982 - 1986, I saw this same type of stuff go on ...
Knight of the Middle
(63 posts)I'll just leave it there.
Martin Eden
(12,874 posts)In Trump.
hadEnuf
(2,209 posts)and start locking up the treasonous politicians for real. Start holding these propaganda media outlets accountable and force them to curtail their seditious bullshit or face real consequences.
We are basically waiting for these traitors to start shooting and take over the government so they can force their insane rules on all of us, even though their politics were soundly rejected in the voting booth.
They have shown us enough to start labeling and treating them like the seditious scum they are.