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appalachiablue

(41,168 posts)
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 07:49 PM Dec 2021

Opinion: 'We Are Closer To Civil War Than Any Of Us Would Like To Believe,' New Study Says

- Washington Post, Dana Milbank, Dec. 17, 2021. - Edited. 'How Civil Wars Start,' by Barbara F. Walter.

If you know people still in denial about the crisis of American democracy, kindly remove their heads from the sand long enough to receive this message: A startling new finding by one of the nation’s top authorities on foreign civil wars says we are on the cusp of our own. Barbara F. Walter, a political science professor at the Univ. of CA at San Diego, serves on a CIA advisory panel called the Political Instability Task Force that monitors countries around the world and predicts which of them are most at risk of deteriorating into violence. By law, the task force can’t assess what’s happening within the U.S., but Walter, a longtime friend who has spent her career studying conflicts in Syria, Lebanon, Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Rwanda, Angola, Nicaragua and elsewhere, applied the predictive techniques herself to this country. Her bottom line:

“We are closer to civil war than any of us would like to believe.” She lays out the argument in detail in her must-read book, “How Civil Wars Start,” out in January. “No one wants to believe that their beloved democracy is in decline, or headed toward war,” she writes.

But, “if you were an analyst in a foreign country looking at events in America- the same way you’d look at events in Ukraine or the Ivory Coast or Venezuela- you would go down a checklist, assessing each of the conditions that make civil war likely. And what you would find is that the U.S., a democracy founded more than two centuries ago, has entered very dangerous territory.” Indeed, the U.S. has already gone through what the CIA identifies as the first 2 phases of insurgency- the “pre-insurgency” and “incipient conflict” phases- and only time will tell whether the final phase, “open insurgency,” began with the sacking of the Capitol by Trump supporters on Jan. 6. Things deteriorated so dramatically under Trump, in fact, that the U.S. no longer technically qualifies as a democracy.

Citing the Center for Systemic Peace’s “Polity” data set- the one the CIA task force has found to be most helpful in predicting instability and violence- Walter writes that the U.S. is now an “anocracy,” somewhere between a democracy and an autocratic state. U.S. democracy had received the Polity index’s top score of 10, or close to it, for much of its history. But in the 5 years of the Trump era, it tumbled precipitously into the anocracy zone; by the end of his presidency, the U.S. score had fallen to a 5, making the country a partial democracy for the first time since 1800. “We are no longer the world’s oldest continuous democracy,” Walter writes. “That honor is now held by Switzerland, followed by New Zealand, and then Canada. We are no longer a peer to nations like Canada, Costa Rica, and Japan, which are all rated a +10 on the Polity index.”

Dropping 5 points in 5 years greatly increases the risk of civil war (6 points in 3 years would qualify as “high risk” of civil war). “A partial democracy is 3 times as likely to experience civil war as a full democracy,” Walter writes.
“A country standing on this threshold- as America is now, at +5- can easily be pushed toward conflict through a combination of bad governance & increasingly undemocratic measures that further weaken its institutions.”
The Stockholm-based International Institute for Democracy put the U.S. on a list of “backsliding democracies” in a report last month. A new survey by the academic consortium Bright Line Watch found that 17% of those who identify strongly as Republicans support the use of violence to restore Trump to power, and 39% favor doing everything possible to prevent Democrats from governing effectively.

The question now is whether we can pull back from the abyss Trump’s Republicans have led us to. Democracy is the foundation of everything else in America. It is no exaggeration to say the survival of our country is at stake...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/17/how-civil-wars-start-barbara-walter-research/
________

- Also: 'Republicans are plotting to destroy democracy from within.' Opinion, Capitol Attack, by Lawrence Douglas, The Guardian, Dec. 17, 2021. Opportunism and cowardice has more than sufficed to make Republicans espouse a noxious falsehood as an axiomatic truth.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/17/republicans-plotting-destroy-democracy

63 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Opinion: 'We Are Closer To Civil War Than Any Of Us Would Like To Believe,' New Study Says (Original Post) appalachiablue Dec 2021 OP
Did Walter study civil war within nations with nuclear weapons? Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #1
Gravy Seals! WestIndianArchie Dec 2021 #7
A big, and dubious, assumption here dpibel Dec 2021 #12
As I said a military coup/occupation is more likely than a civil war Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #16
Plausible as well, esp. The Troubles.. appalachiablue Dec 2021 #24
These guys might know how the system works dpibel Dec 2021 #63
The Air Force Academy is a Hotbed of Radical Christianity Tommymac Dec 2021 #35
Looks like a big chunk of the military leadership Martin Eden Dec 2021 #51
This! PortTack Dec 2021 #30
How about this time let's just let the South secede. aeromanKC Dec 2021 #2
So what happens to liberal strongholds like Atlanta, Austin, etc? Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #17
In most civil wars, refugees flee hostile areas and relocate. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #22
Do you envision and Afghanistan-style evacuation? Nt Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #23
No other country will come to our aid if the US has a civil war. Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #26
See the partition of India shortly after their independence. paleotn Dec 2021 #31
Walk me through the process of partitioning the US, including financial, geographic and military Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #34
Who said peaceful? dpibel Dec 2021 #40
Sometimes it is. The Soviet breakup was peaceful overall. paleotn Dec 2021 #42
But there were complex negotiations around division/destruction of nukes when the USSR dissolved. Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #47
Yep. Isn't simple or easy paleotn Dec 2021 #55
Or likely. Nt Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #57
I think if it could be done peacefully, it would have happened already. Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #46
Maybe similar to the walk the former Soviet Union took. paleotn Dec 2021 #41
...and the biggest question after who gets the nukes...who's responsible for $29 trillion national debt? Fiendish Thingy Dec 2021 #59
What happens to the US military when it can no longer recruit from Red states? AncientAndy Dec 2021 #58
Not pure sectional, cut & dried. Many Ds in So. urban areas.. appalachiablue Dec 2021 #25
Gee, thanks. piddyprints Dec 2021 #28
I would hope I_UndergroundPanther Dec 2021 #43
I'll stay here and die if it comes to that. piddyprints Dec 2021 #52
Province of New England, Province of New York, Province of Michigan... roamer65 Dec 2021 #32
This message was self-deleted by its author traitorsgalore Dec 2021 #61
If we have one, the first shot in that civil war was from Dylann Roof. ck4829 Dec 2021 #3
I tend to think the first shot in Civil War II was the indifference to COVID in the early stages... Girard442 Dec 2021 #36
Damn scary 3auld6phart Dec 2021 #4
I don't think they have the support Mr.Bill Dec 2021 #11
I do believe that the Trump wing of the GOP is anti-Democratic and would trash the constitution lees1975 Dec 2021 #5
No surprise, the insurgents become more angry when they win, and more angry when they lose bucolic_frolic Dec 2021 #6
I don't know if they own more guns - or maybe Dan Dec 2021 #20
Beware Prophecies of Civil War Mme. Defarge Dec 2021 #8
All brought to us by the Republican Party. Lonestarblue Dec 2021 #9
Reagan lit the fuel, Nixon, others active before 1981. appalachiablue Dec 2021 #27
I like to think more corporate, like a hostile takeover ... Auggie Dec 2021 #10
Good points. And done slowly enough that we don't know we're being boiled... erronis Dec 2021 #13
Yep Auggie Dec 2021 #15
Impt. point, longstanding goals in the larger picture. appalachiablue Dec 2021 #21
The Republican Party is the political arm of the oligopolists and oligarchs. hay rick Dec 2021 #38
+1 Auggie Dec 2021 #50
Also the Dominionists Martin Eden Dec 2021 #53
This time the rebels might get taken down by disease IronLionZion Dec 2021 #14
Got that right Traildogbob Dec 2021 #37
We make a serious mistake... appmanga Dec 2021 #18
The Trump-centric view is overemphasized. Reagan, also Nixon, appalachiablue Dec 2021 #29
Don't forget the failed election of 2000 dpibel Dec 2021 #44
A travesty with major consequences as we see. appalachiablue Dec 2021 #60
Bingo!! K&R onetexan Dec 2021 #54
Their supplies DownriverDem Dec 2021 #19
The food or the prescription meds? Crowman2009 Dec 2021 #45
Somebody should remind older Republicans ThoughtCriminal Dec 2021 #33
This message was self-deleted by its author traitorsgalore Dec 2021 #62
This behavior is not new ... SarcasticSatyr Dec 2021 #39
One side seems a bit more enthusiastic for Civil War II than the other Knight of the Middle Dec 2021 #48
Putin got an enormous return on his investment Martin Eden Dec 2021 #49
How about we go in and dismantle these fascists America hating groups hadEnuf Dec 2021 #56

Fiendish Thingy

(15,651 posts)
1. Did Walter study civil war within nations with nuclear weapons?
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 07:57 PM
Dec 2021

Because, AFAIK, there has never been one, and I don’t think there ever will be.

Military coup? Yes.

Ongoing Civil unrest/Domestic Terror? Yes.

But not a Civil War with two armies battling each other for control of the government and/or territory.

The Gravy Seals wouldn’t stand a chance against even a small portion of the US armed forces, especially the Air Force.

dpibel

(2,852 posts)
12. A big, and dubious, assumption here
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 08:59 PM
Dec 2021

What makes you so sure that the military would be wholly loyal?

Remember where Robert E. Lee started his career...

I've heard tell that there's a strong right-wing presence in the US military, maybe even some downright secessionists.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,651 posts)
16. As I said a military coup/occupation is more likely than a civil war
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:13 PM
Dec 2021

If some rogue general tries to command a…what, a battalion? Against Union loyalist forces, who do you think would prevail? Who would control America’s nukes in such a scenario? Do you know how that whole system works?

It might get bloody, but such a scenario would likely be over in hours.

IMO, it’s far more likely the military would prop up either a dictator, or enforce martial law in occupied rebel states.

Then, instead of a civil war, you get the American version of Ireland’s “troubles”.

appalachiablue

(41,168 posts)
24. Plausible as well, esp. The Troubles..
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:31 PM
Dec 2021

IMO, it’s far more likely the military would prop up either a dictator, or enforce martial law in occupied rebel states.

Then, instead of a civil war, you get the American version of Ireland’s “troubles”.

dpibel

(2,852 posts)
63. These guys might know how the system works
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 03:42 PM
Dec 2021
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016308836

"The potential for a total breakdown of the chain of command along partisan lines — from the top of the chain to squad level — is significant should another insurrection occur. The idea of rogue units organizing among themselves to support the “rightful” commander in chief cannot be dismissed."

Tommymac

(7,263 posts)
35. The Air Force Academy is a Hotbed of Radical Christianity
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 10:26 PM
Dec 2021
https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2018/3/29/christian-takeover-us-military
The Christian Takeover of the U.S. Military
For years, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation has noted the growing efforts by evangelicals to turn the U.S. military into an instrument of their ideology and worldview. While not all evangelicals believe the same, the far more radicalized tend toward a belief called dominionism — a wish to turn America into a nation perhaps not run as a theocratic state but at least run by extreme Christian beliefs, the military included. Hence the reason Pence, with the help of the Family Research Council and the Heritage Foundation, produced a report full of bad anti-transgender science and myths in order to justify the ban. This is not the first time military policy and leadership have been guided not by military regulations and the law but by evangelical proselytizing and beliefs.

For instance, in 2005 it emerged that evangelical cadets at the U.S. Air Force Academy were being urged to proselytize their fellows, warning them they would burn in hell without Jesus. Other allegations included prayers during mandatory meetings, public shaming, and leaders teaching witness classes to cadets. At one point, 41 percent of non-Christian Air Force cadets reported unwanted proselytizing. The Military Religious Freedom Foundation discovered a video in 2006 used to promote Christian groups that was filmed inside the Pentagon and featured uniformed generals. An investigation found the film’s purpose was misrepresented by an Army chaplain and listed numerous violations of DOD policy. The Army has come under extensive criticism for the inclusion of a spiritual aspect in its Comprehensive Soldier Fitness program, which evaluates soldier readiness, and has been accused of veiling the religious element with ambiguous language. Reports continually surface of soldiers being denied or threatened with a ban on reenlistment if they do not include references to God (which by regulation are optional).


https://theanalysis.news/powerful-christian-nationalists-in-military-see-trump-as-vehicle-for-authoritarian-religious-state-mikey-weinstein/
Full Interview – Powerful Christian Nationalists in Military See Trump as Vehicle for Authoritarian Religious State – Mikey Weinstein

Christian fundamentalist nationalists in the senior ranks of the military, see Trump as an instrument of God’s plan to create an authoritarian Christian state. The military allows active proselytizing and recruitment of soldiers, contrary to the constitutional separation of church and state. Many of these officers and soldiers were involved in the events leading up to and on Jan 6th, which has been described as an attempted coup. Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation joins Paul Jay on theAnalysis.news



I’ve reported on many other sources that shared the same concern, so I won’t go over all that again here. But in the media coverage of the events leading up to, and including, the storming of Capitol Hill, while there’s been quite a bit of talk about the far-right, white supremacists, and Nazis, even by active and retired military leaders at the highest levels, there’s not been much focus on the extent this growing movement is made up of followers of Christian religious extremists, many of whom are openly for dropping the separation of church and state and making the military an army for their version of Christ.


In an interview I did with Joe Wilson in 2019, in fact it would be the last interview he did before he died, I spoke to Ambassador Wilson, who was the man who exposed the Niger uranium fraud that Bush and Cheney tried to use to justify the Iraq war. In the interview, I asked about the rise of religious extremism in the U.S. Military. Here’s the quote from Wilson: “For the evangelicals, not only is it a way for them to get back to the plains of Armageddon for the last great battle of the Apocalypse, but they’ve managed to use this as a way to infiltrate the highest ranks of the military and to try and convert the military from an organization focused on the defense, national security, and the constitution of the country, to a military force fighting for their vision of Jesus Christ. They have penetrated the Chaplain Corps in ways that are absolutely disgusting. The responsibility of the Chaplains was always to minister to the needs of soldiers and their families in times of need, either in hospitals, grieving, or whatever, not to impose their view of what the right religion should be. But now, these guys do not minister. They proselytize.” Then I ask, “How successful have they been in infiltrating the military?” Wilson answers, “Way too successful. We fight that every day.” I ask, “And you’re saying at the highest levels?” And Wilson says, “Oh, yeah. We were in the middle of a fight with a brigadier general who now runs a command and it’s all about Jesus. It’s all about his vision of Jesus. And I think we’re in the middle of a legal fight with him right now.” And I say, “Who’s we?” And Wilson says, “The Military Religious Freedom Foundation. I sit on the board with, among others, Larry Wilkerson. It’s run by a guy by the name of Mikey Weinstein, who’s Jewish, and who has suffered every possible indignity you could imagine from these evangelical nuts, including having dead rabbits thrown on his property and swastika signs painted on his wall. Yes, they’re very nasty. They’re a nasty crowd.” So that was all Joe Wilson, now back to me.


https://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/press-releases/ips_christian_taliban.html
Q&A: "We're Dealing with a Christian Taliban"
Interview with Mikey Weinstein

Mikey Weinstein
Credit:Margery Epstein

WASHINGTON, Sep 7 (IPS) - Last month, the Pentagon pulled the plugon a plan to dispatch so-called "freedom packages" to U.S. troops in Iraq that included Bibles, proselytising materials in English and Arabic, and an apocalyptic computer game in which "soldiers for Christ" battle satanic "Global Community Peacekeepers".

The scheme was derailed in part because of the efforts of Mikey Weinstein, founder and president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which seeks to protect the wall separating church and state in the United States armed forces.

Weinstein, in his own words, is no "bleeding-heart liberal". He is a 1977 honor graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, and spent 10 years in the Air Force as a "JAG" or military attorney serving as both a federal prosecutor and criminal defence attorney.

A registered Republican, he also spent over three years in the Ronald Reagan administration as legal counsel in the White House, where he helped investigate the Iran-Contra scandal.


Martin Eden

(12,874 posts)
51. Looks like a big chunk of the military leadership
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 08:04 AM
Dec 2021

As well as the rank and file are more likely to take sides with a "Christian" autocracy in a Constitional crisis.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,651 posts)
17. So what happens to liberal strongholds like Atlanta, Austin, etc?
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:15 PM
Dec 2021

As well as conservative strongholds in the North?

Not a very well thought out scenario.

paleotn

(17,939 posts)
31. See the partition of India shortly after their independence.
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:52 PM
Dec 2021

For a less bloody example, see the Czechoslovakian velvet divorce. A partition of the US is possible, probably likely. Nation states come and go. It's the natural order of things. And there's nothing special about the US that excludes us from that. The only real problem I have with it is it's a Russian and Chinese wet dream.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,651 posts)
34. Walk me through the process of partitioning the US, including financial, geographic and military
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 10:09 PM
Dec 2021

It wouldn’t be a Mason-Dixon division, more like the coasts and some of the rust belt split from the south and plains states, but even that doesn’t seem be feasible for a clean division.

Important questions to consider:

How is the military divided and funded, who gets nukes, planes, ships?
What happens to Social Security, Medicare, etc?

It’s unanswerable-in-a-hypothetical questions like these that make me seriously sceptical that the US would ever be able to peacefully splinter into multiple nations.

dpibel

(2,852 posts)
40. Who said peaceful?
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 11:30 PM
Dec 2021

The poster you're replying to referenced the India/Pakistan partition, which involved millions of displaced people and hundreds of thousands, at least, deaths.

The simple fact is that countries do break apart, and the US is a country.

When countries break apart, it's usually not polite and peaceful.

As for the answer to your questions about who gets what, it's most likely whoever has territorial control. The Dakotas will gift the new Confederacy with a bunch of nukes. The Liberal States of America will have most of the Navy, what with controlling most of the seaports.

But the fact that it wouldn't be peaceful certainly doesn't mean it won't happen. And if you weren't implying that, I apologize for misunderstanding.

I think there are plenty of people who say, "This is America! If we can't break apart peacefully, then we shan't break apart." I think that is a wrong analysis. And, again, if that is not your analysis, excuse me.

paleotn

(17,939 posts)
42. Sometimes it is. The Soviet breakup was peaceful overall.
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 11:45 PM
Dec 2021

On day the Ukraine was Ukraine SSR. Not may days later it was the sovereign nation of Ukraine.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,651 posts)
46. I think if it could be done peacefully, it would have happened already.
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 01:52 AM
Dec 2021

But If you think the Dakotas would be allowed to gift nukes to the New Confederacy unimpeded, I think you’re wrong.

The Dakotas would be incinerated before the Union/Liberal states would allow ICBMs to fall into the hands of the confederates.

paleotn

(17,939 posts)
41. Maybe similar to the walk the former Soviet Union took.
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 11:43 PM
Dec 2021

I'm old enough to remember when that was considered unthinkable. Ukraine has been part of Russia since the 17th century. Party of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Duchy of Lithuania before that. Now they find themselves as a sovereign nation. How'd that happen? Same with Belarus. My point is, things just as strange have happened. A US breakup doesn't have to be just two countries. 3 maybe 4 are plausible. And it doesn't have to be overnight. It could happen over the course of decades. The mechanisms to start that process already exist and are already in play. Interstate compacts for one. There's a ton of stuff states do together outside of federal control. Our Constitution limits federal power to a greater extent than nearly all of our allies. Most of which have no analog to US state power.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,651 posts)
59. ...and the biggest question after who gets the nukes...who's responsible for $29 trillion national debt?
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 01:47 PM
Dec 2021

A third of which is owned by China.

Just one more reason why a dissolution of the US is extremely unlikely.

 

AncientAndy

(73 posts)
58. What happens to the US military when it can no longer recruit from Red states?
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 01:27 PM
Dec 2021
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2020/02/19/states-that-defend-uswhere-do-our-military-volunteers-call-home/?sh=33d09cfb534c

“There are stark regional differences in the makeup of our military, with the South contributing more than its fair share of personnel and the Northeast largely lagging behind, with a few exceptions”

I_UndergroundPanther

(12,480 posts)
43. I would hope
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 12:45 AM
Dec 2021

There would be organizations that would pick up any liberal stuck in rethug hell and help them relocate.


The maga idiots and r monsters would want to grab r's from liberal areas

piddyprints

(14,648 posts)
52. I'll stay here and die if it comes to that.
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 08:05 AM
Dec 2021

There is not another move in this old body. Our house is paid for and we have animals. It's ridiculous to think that we could be "relocated" as if we're a piece of furniture. Our daughter lives nearby and teaches at the university. They'll move her and find her new job? Who will buy hour houses?

All this talk of secession is ridiculous.

roamer65

(36,747 posts)
32. Province of New England, Province of New York, Province of Michigan...
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:54 PM
Dec 2021

We have more in common with Canada than we do shithole states like Alabama or Texass.

Response to aeromanKC (Reply #2)

Girard442

(6,082 posts)
36. I tend to think the first shot in Civil War II was the indifference to COVID in the early stages...
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 10:37 PM
Dec 2021

...when it was mostly in the coastal (mostly Blue) states. The Trumpites were such shit-for-brains that they thought it would stay there.

3auld6phart

(1,049 posts)
4. Damn scary
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 08:10 PM
Dec 2021

At least in most Civil uprisings their is a dividing line
Mason Dixon type separation. Like North and South
If a Civil War does happen it will be street fighting.Meth
mouthed armed to the nuts idiots, 90 % WASP scum
That one third have the guns and support of a majority
of the LEOs. It’s bloody scary to think about.

Mr.Bill

(24,312 posts)
11. I don't think they have the support
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 08:58 PM
Dec 2021

of the majority of LEOs. Most of them are young people with families, and the last thing they want is a bloody conflict right where they live. Many of them are veterans of Middle Eastern conflicts and they don't want to see that here. They want to go to work, do their jobs, raise their families and put their kids through college. Do you think the revolutionary army will provide a California LEO with a six figure pension when he retires in his mid-50s?

lees1975

(3,876 posts)
5. I do believe that the Trump wing of the GOP is anti-Democratic and would trash the constitution
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 08:14 PM
Dec 2021

in a heartbeat if they could, because they know they are a minority and their shot at actually winning elections and getting their nut jobs in office is limited to the states which take more federal welfate than their taxpayers provide to the government, like Texas, Florida, South Carolina and so forth.

bucolic_frolic

(43,257 posts)
6. No surprise, the insurgents become more angry when they win, and more angry when they lose
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 08:42 PM
Dec 2021

and they own most of the guns. Find a way to alter that closed loop.

Dan

(3,579 posts)
20. I don't know if they own more guns - or maybe
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:21 PM
Dec 2021

I would say this, some of them own a lot (seriously a lot) of guns, and most just own like the rest of the normal gun owners’.

Lonestarblue

(10,050 posts)
9. All brought to us by the Republican Party.
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 08:47 PM
Dec 2021

They have been stoking hatred of minorities and liberals for decades, long with and anti-government sentiment that was reinforced by Reagan. Republicans have cultivated groups like the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Constitutional Sheriffs, etc.—all groups eager to overturn a legally elected government and establish their own version of right-wing repression of anyone and everyone they do not like, which is mostly all women who aren’t submissive, all LGBTQ, all minorities, and anyone who is liberal or educated.

I don’t know how this ends, but I fear it will be violent.

appalachiablue

(41,168 posts)
27. Reagan lit the fuel, Nixon, others active before 1981.
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:39 PM
Dec 2021

It's been a 30-40 year process, Trump was the flaming apex.

Auggie

(31,182 posts)
10. I like to think more corporate, like a hostile takeover ...
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 08:51 PM
Dec 2021

Social Security: privatized

Medicare: privatized

Affordable Health Care Act: overturned

National Highway system: mostly toll roads

Local water systems: many privatized

Tax cuts for the wealthy: permanent

Protected lands: diminished

EPA, OSHA, FDA, CDC, ETC: powerless

Elections: rigged to favor capitalists

appalachiablue

(41,168 posts)
21. Impt. point, longstanding goals in the larger picture.
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:27 PM
Dec 2021

How the antigov agenda would be accomplished, whether by political or violent means or both is a critical issue. People better realize what's taking place, the realities and and all that's involved in moving to authoritarian rule.

A tall order esp. with the rampant propaganda system, Covid, more. But people can't give up or remain passive and ignorant. There must be more education, truth and engagement in our political and social systems, now.

Defending democracy and averting possible civil war are realities we face. GOTV is imperative, then more major efforts to strengthen our democratic nation, before it's too late.

hay rick

(7,636 posts)
38. The Republican Party is the political arm of the oligopolists and oligarchs.
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 10:46 PM
Dec 2021

Division and hate are just tools to keep the electorate fragmented and powerless. Actual civil war would be destructive of the self-interest of the GOP's owners. They are playing with fire.

Martin Eden

(12,874 posts)
53. Also the Dominionists
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 08:22 AM
Dec 2021

Did you read Tommymac's post earlier in this thread with the long quotes from articles about the rise of radical Christians in the US military?

In the next Constitional crisis, instead of a General Milley to protect the fort of our democracy the radical Christian leadership in our military could be the key to installing Trump (or some other RW autocratic like DeSantis) when the presidential election is contested -- which it most definitely will be if the D's win.

Red states are already making it possible to toss out votes or overturn results if claims of fraud surface, which they will.

Oligarchs and radical Christians may have different motivations and beliefs, but they are on the same side in their fight against liberal democracy.

This kind of war can be won with that kind of coalition.

IronLionZion

(45,508 posts)
14. This time the rebels might get taken down by disease
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:02 PM
Dec 2021

The civil war types need to huddle in close together and breathe deep.

appmanga

(577 posts)
18. We make a serious mistake...
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:15 PM
Dec 2021

...if we simply buy into the narrative this started with Trump.

" Walter writes that the U.S. is now an “anocracy,” somewhere between a democracy and an autocratic state". The drift toward autocracy got it's strongest push when Mitch McConnell made the decision that Republicans will be the only ones to choose ambassadors, cabinet members, and judges. In action, McConnell is as much of an authoritarian as Donald Trump and has been much more successful at it.

The Democrats who love the filibuster better think hard and long about whether a rule is more important than democracy itself because they're not going to get another chance to prevent the civil unrest that will be coming. There are people who are Democrats who are not afraid or intimidated by the right-wingers and MAGA goons and are prepared to fight them on their terms.

appalachiablue

(41,168 posts)
29. The Trump-centric view is overemphasized. Reagan, also Nixon,
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 09:46 PM
Dec 2021

the growth and influence of RW Think Tanks, Heritage, the Kochs, ALEC, Milton Friedman and all have been in progress for at least 30-40 years.

dpibel

(2,852 posts)
44. Don't forget the failed election of 2000
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 01:03 AM
Dec 2021

It's a never ending mystery to me how that gets treated as a triumph of The American Way.

No tanks in the street!

So no problem with the steal.

Crowman2009

(2,499 posts)
45. The food or the prescription meds?
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 01:05 AM
Dec 2021

Because a lot of those gravy seals wouldn't stand a chance at living without them. So they sure as hell wouldn't have any once their precious civil war starts.

ThoughtCriminal

(14,047 posts)
33. Somebody should remind older Republicans
Fri Dec 17, 2021, 10:00 PM
Dec 2021

That if they start a civil war, they probably won't get their Social Security checks for the duration and if they win, not even after. And even if they do, they will be worthless.

And these are the same people who can't handle a shortage of toilet paper.

Response to ThoughtCriminal (Reply #33)

hadEnuf

(2,209 posts)
56. How about we go in and dismantle these fascists America hating groups
Sat Dec 18, 2021, 10:12 AM
Dec 2021

and start locking up the treasonous politicians for real. Start holding these propaganda media outlets accountable and force them to curtail their seditious bullshit or face real consequences.

We are basically waiting for these traitors to start shooting and take over the government so they can force their insane rules on all of us, even though their politics were soundly rejected in the voting booth.

They have shown us enough to start labeling and treating them like the seditious scum they are.

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