South Africa files genocide case against Israel at International Court of Justice over Gaza war

[Uncle Joe]

(snip)

South Africa accuses Israel of being “in violation of its obligations under the Genocide Convention” in its application and argues that “acts and omissions by Israel … are genocidal in character, as they are committed with the requisite specific intent … to destroy Palestinians in Gaza,” according to the ICJ.

Over 21,507 people have been killed in Gaza since October 7, according to the enclave’s Hamas-controlled Health Ministry. Among the dead are at least 308 people who were sheltering in United Nations shelters, per the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees.

(snip)

US President Joe Biden said earlier this month that that Israel is engaged in “indiscriminate bombing” in Gaza. US intelligence assessment suggests that nearly half of the air-to-ground munitions that Israel has used in Gaza in its war with Hamas have been unguided, otherwise known as “dumb bombs.” Unguided munitions are typically less precise and can pose a greater threat to civilians.

Many of the bombs used in Gaza have also been massive, capable of killing or wounding people more than 1,000 feet away, analysis by CNN and artificial intelligence company Synthetaic has suggested.

(snip)

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/29/middleeast/south-africa-icj-israel-genocide-intl/index.html

[Beastly Boy]

1. Hamas praises South Africa's ICJ request to probe Israeli 'genocide'

Hamas praised South Africa's Friday request to the International Court of Justice in the Hague to initiate legal proceedings against Israel on the grounds of genocide. The Hamas statement was posted to its English-language Telegram channel on Saturday evening.

"We highly appreciate South Africa's move to submit a request to the International Court of Justice to initiate proceedings to investigate the Zionist entity's criminal act of committing genocide against our Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip," Hamas wrote. "

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-780147

[Uncle Joe]

2. What do the children being being amputated on in Gaza with no anesthesia think about it?

Have we heard from them yet?

[Beastly Boy]

4. They probably don't know what South Africa is,

or what genocide is or whether South Africa accusing Israel of a fake crime will stop their pain, or even whether South Africa is in any way interested in stopping their pain.

Frankly, on the latter one, neither do I.

[Uncle Joe]

6. The Palestinian children know everything in their existence (as miserable as that was) is being destroyed.

Their family, friends, schools, hospitals, entire neighborhoods blown to dust before their eyes.

Many of them know about being buried alive with increasing numbers facing starvation and disease.

They know Israel is dropping the bombs because their family and friends have told them.

They know that there is no medicine for their pain and suffering because Israel is not allowing it.

They know that the dead are literally everywhere.

I believe today, they have a better grasp of what genocide means than any people Earth.

[Goddessartist]

7. Yes

and it's heartbreaking.

[Beastly Boy]

9. You are arguing that the experiences of Gazan children make them well versed in international law and politics.

Or else you are masking ignorance of international law with your expressions of outrage. Both tactics avoid the issues, and I see this happening again, and again, and again.

You have to decide, do you want to reflexively express your outrage every time anyone invokes Gaza, or do you want to honestly address the issues that trigger your outrage? If you ever decide on the latter, a certain departure from the emotional into the rational is in order.

[Uncle Joe]

11. I'm arguing that the children in Gaza are experiencing genocide as we speak.

Now if you wish to avoid that inconvenient truth because it's too emotionally distressing I understand, but it doesn't change the reality of what's happening on the ground.

Palestinian society, not Hamas is being destroyed in Gaza by Israel.

Also I see no contradiction in being outraged by crimes against humanity.

[Beastly Boy]

17. And why would Gazan children care if you call something genocide or bubonic plague?

Surely that would change absolutely nothing in their lives. So don't pretend you are shaming anyone for their sake. And, in turn, I will not pretend that you are succeeding.

Since crimes are subject to legal standards, legal definitions of crimes have a purpose. One of them is to prevent demagogues from using accusations of crimes against humanity as propaganda in the service of promoting hate crimes. Without knowing the legal definition of a crime against humanity, one cannot possibly recognize a crime against humanity, let alone identify its possible perpetrators. If one can't tell the difference between the legal meaning of the term and a hyperbole that corrupts its meaning, one cannot be expected to reach sound conclusions and has no standing to arbitrarily use the term as a mere slur. And even though it may sound righteous and noble, it is ultimately demeaning to the accused, the accuser and the victim in equal measure.

So while there is no contradiction in being outraged by crimes against humanity, there is a huge lapse in credibility when one uses accusations of crimes against humanity to whip up outrage .

Of course, you are free to keep on raging, but it does absolutely no good to the victims and it raises questions about the purpose of your rage.

[Goddessartist]

3. Good. Here's Juan Cole's take on it.

[link:https://www.juancole.com/2023/12/charges-genocide-hypocrisy.html|

"In international law, genocide is not the same as annihilation. As defined in contemporary treaties such as the Rome Statute, it can involve killing relatively few individuals, but doing it in such a way as to deliberately cripple their ability to survive as a people. The key elements are intentionally targeting a people because of its ethnic identity and attempting to wipe out its peoplehood. Israel’s destruction of all Gaza universities and many other schools, and its killing of so many professors and journalists in what looks like a campaign of targeted assassinations, looks genocidal, since schools and universities and the press carry a people’s identity."

[Beastly Boy]

5. Disclaimer: Juan Cole is not a lawyer. Nor is he an expert in international law.

But I see that the irony of Hamas praising anyone for a petition to investigate anyone else for war crime is totally escaping the attention of certain DUers.

[Goddessartist]

8. Apparently you're not

familiar with Professor Cole.

[Beastly Boy]

10. Apparently I am not. Don't leave me hanging, enlighten me

[revmclaren]

12. Are you, other than what you see online.

Please...feel free to educate us.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

14. Well then, do educate us.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

15. Targeted assasinations?

That's a new one, the only targeted assassinations that have occurred have been Hamas assassinations on 10/7 on innocent Israeli and foreign citizens.

This Juan Cole has shown himself for what he really is.
And now I'm going to trash this bullshit thread.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

13. Which is a useless gesture, as S. Africa well knows, they're doing this for propaganda purposes.

Israel is not a signatory member of the ICJ and they have no jurisdiction whatsoever.

And Hamas praising them?
That's a fucking hoot.

So how come S. Africa doesn't file a complaint against Hamas?
Very curious.

[Uncle Joe]

16. Russia isn't a signatory either but Putin still has to think twice about where he travels.

If Hamas were to praise dogs, it doesn't mean that I will automatically hate puppies.