Is Wine Bullshit?

[limpyhobbler]

A Lafite Rothschild Bordeaux sells for a minimum of around $500 a bottle, while humble brands like Charles Shaw and Franzia sell for as little as $2. But as far as “wine economists” are concerned, the level of correlation between the price of a bottle of wine and its quality is low or nonexistent. In a number of damning studies, they suggest that wine is not just poorly priced, but that the different tastes we describe in wine may all be in our heads.

A 2008 paper in The Journal of Wine Economics, for example, found that when consumers are unaware of a wine’s price, they “on average enjoy more expensive wines slightly less [than cheap ones].” Experts do not fare much better. The study could not conclude that experts preferred more expensive wine: “In sum, we find a non-negative relationship between price and overall rating for experts. Due to the poor statistical significance of the price coefficient for experts, it remains an open question whether this coefficient is in fact positive.”

In another experiment, critics tasted one red wine and one white wine. They described the red in language typical of reds and the white in language typical of whites. The problem? Both were identical white wines; the “red” had been tinted with food coloring.

Another study looked at the accuracy of the influential 100 point scale invented by wine critic Robert M. Parker Jr. By having judges at a tasting rate the same wine multiple times, retired statistician and hobbyist winemaker Robert Hodgson found that the judging was completely inconsistent:
...

http://priceonomics.com/is-wine-bullshit/

[KT2000]

1. Yes n/t

[Warpy]

2. That's absolutely correct

Once you go above about a hundred bucks for a niche vineyard in one of their best years, the difference in quality just isn't noticeable.

In fact, my own limit has been $30.00 and I usually pay far less than that for wines I know are drinkable and that means they will incorporate well into my cooking.

I can't drink, it triggers migraines. However, one sip is OK and will tell me if a wine is drinkable or not. California cheap wines are on the same level as midpriced European wines and often superior to them.

I've had a $500 wine exactly once and I honestly couldn't tell the difference. It was nice but no nicer than a $20 bottle I had at home.

When I see some of the obscene prices paid by people with more money than brains and expect to get an increase in quality through the increase in what they're willing to pay, I have to stifle a giggle. I know most of them can't tell the difference any more than I can and can't help but think they're paying thousands for what will turn out to be indistinguishable from plonk.

If there's a difference, I will pick it up. So far the only difference I've noticed is because of the laws of diminishing returns.

[Journeyman]

3. Here's video of a wine tasting contest. Kind of sums it up . . .

[ChazInAz]

49. First thing I thought of!

One of the funniest scenes ever filmed. Especially good, knowing that Mr. Price was a wine connoisseur and was mocking the pretensions of his fellow vinophiles. Peter Lorre just did his hilarious Peter Lorre schtick. What a team! God, I miss them.

[Hissyspit]

56. It's the first thing I thought of, too!

[silverweb]

4. Yes.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]Worst wine I ever had was $100 for the bottle in 1972. How much would that be today? I'm no connoisseur, but it was vinegar. Awful, gag-inducing stuff. I decided then it was bullshit.

Nothing I've tasted in all the years since, especially wine that was touted as "special," has been really any better than a good table wine. I've always thought that wine snobs are exactly that: just snobs.

[go west young man]

5. I've been serving for 25 years in fine dining

and I too believe it's mostly bullshit when you get into the upper ridiculous prices. However, I notice definite feelings of the nice warm fuzzes as I go up the scale, say for example, from a cheap Cali chardonnay (15 bucks) to a mid price like Sonoma Cutrer (45)and then onward to Cakebread (90) and up to a Montrechet.(175) I get to taste plenty of wine and as they escalate in price they escalate in that nice feeling. After $200 it's just expensive self flagellation bullshit. What you want is not to get a headache and just have a nice night out with good vibes and Sonoma Cutrer and most mid priced wines will do fine for that. Most cheap Marlborough, NZ Sav Blancs will also get you there.

[wtmusic]

43. Agree. After a $115 Châteauneuf-du-Pape even a top shelf TJ cabernet

will taste watered down and unbalanced. If someone can't taste the difference they don't drink enough wine.

On the other hand, hearing people talk about "citrus notes" and "hints of almond" makes me want to regurgitate my last glass.

[tularetom]

55. LOL, my favorite was the one that "finished with a hint of bacon"

Bacon for chrissakes. I mean, I love bacon as much as the next carnivore, but it just ain't what I want to taste in a glass of wine.

I was actually tasting at the winery that produced this bacon juice and I made a comment about how silly the description was. You would have thought I just farted during the blessing at my daughter's wedding. The server was pretty cool, he just rolled his eyes, but a few of my fellow tasters took great umbrage at my rude remarks.

The next time I visited that winery, the descriptive blurb for that particular wine was missing the phrase likening its taste to bacon. I hope I had something to do with that.

[wtmusic]

57. Love that - typical.

When I go to tastings I've found that the people who describe wine in simple, universal terms are the people I trust. Tannins, sweet, dry, oak, full-bodied, balanced. Those are criteria anyone can identify with a little practice.

If it tastes like citrus or bacon or vanilla to someone else it probably won't to me, so it's annoying when people feel they have to share these personal observations without a prompt.

[pa28]

6. I noticed a similar study with beer a few years ago with similar results.

When marketing and ego collide the result is pretty ugly.

[Kennah]

7. Are we talking box wine or wine coolers?

[msongs]

10. maybe gallo cream sherry lol 1.50 a bottle (at least it was 20 yrs ago) nt

[Squinch]

53. I wonder how Boone's Farm did?

[avaistheone1]

8. Carnac the Magnificent picks

2 buck Chuck

http://www.wellesleywinepress.com/2009/05/charles-shaw-blind-tasting-or-are-we.html

[DakotaLady]

9. Trader Joe's is my wine store ...

I have a favorite white Espiral Vinho Verde ... has a screw cap ... $4.99 price tag ... all is well.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

11. All the people I know are lately into Moscato. It's very sweet....

They buy it by the box at a club store. We're talking pool parties with a buffet.

A lot of the stuff that used to be on all the store shelves is gone now. Remember Rhine wine? I had a Piesporter Michelsberg at a Cask and Cleaver in the 80s that was really good, but yeah,...wine is a snob thing. Especially for people who are into collections. It's just like Sherry or Cognac with a fucking Havana.

What's funny is when someone talks about Champagne as if it's "high class". In France they carbonate bad wine because otherwise it's undrinkable. Want proof? Try it flat.

[sakabatou]

14. I love Moscato

[Spitfire of ATJ]

16. Goes down good with Sweet Baby Ray's on ribs.

[sakabatou]

25. Better than the wines I've ever had

It's not bitter, nor does it burn on the way down.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

41. It's almost like a wine spritzer.

[newfie11]

29. My favorite.

[madmom]

34. I too love Moscato, but the best wine I've ever had was

my father-in-laws home made dandelion wine. That shit was sooo smooth. Alas, he is no longer with us and it is no more.

[intaglio]

22. Your comment about champagne are wrong

Champagne in Europe is not just carbonated wine it has to be produced from specific grapes in the region by the "Methode Champenoise" i.e. secondary fermentation in the bottle over 15 months, followed by 10-12 weeks of "riddling" additionally anything described as "Vintage" has to be aged for 3 years. Cava is produced by a similar method but the riddling time is shorter.

More common, and cheaper is Metodo Charmat where the wine gets its secondary fermentation in a tank and bottled under pressure. Metodo Charmat does produce some truly horrendous wines in bulk. Horrendous champagnes, on the other hand, are not bulk produced.

Under no circumstances is taking a poor wine and pumping CO2 into it considered good practise although some US producers do perform this trick. I'm not even sure that wines that have this done can even be called "sparkling" in Europe.

As to your comment about how bad Champagne tastes when flat, well have you tried Coca Cola flat? or any drink designed to be carbonated? They all taste bad because part of the taste depends upon the acidity provided by the CO2, this is made even worse because, like all wines, champagne oxidises very rapidly once served.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

40. Obviously you are unfamiliar with Andre.

[intaglio]

44. By the grace of Bacchus, yes

US "Champagne" cannot be sold in Europe under the name of Champagne or the name of Cava. Andre uses Metodo Charmat.

Years back, 1969, I was able to purchase for about £35 (about $60 then) a bottle of vintage Krug Brut de Brut (very little sugar in the "dosage&quot and it was like a sort of continuing explosion of taste - all good.

The same thing today is about £200 a bottle ($300)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

46. Cooks isn't TOO bad. Krug is okay but amongst the overpriced ones Dom is WAY overrated.

[Common Sense Party]

12. No, it's fermented grape juice.

Bullshit is feces that comes from a bull, which is a large mammal.

I hope that helps clear everything up.

[sakabatou]

13. Gotta go with my own fave: Bartenura Moscato ($13 per bottle)

[Skittles]

15. absolutely YES

people are SOOOO easily duped

[King_Klonopin]

17. Reuniti on ice; that's nice!

Back in the day, I thought that buying $5 bottles of
Sebastiani pinot noir and Frexinet sparkling wine
made me a commonsewer.

I find the same is true in the cigar-smoking culture.
The snobby experts will say that Maccanudo and Cohiba
are excellent cigars. I think they're awful. My fave is the
relatively cheaper Excalibur.
It's all a matter of taste. If you don't buy into the BS,
taste can't be altered by the "expert" opinion of another.

What's the word? Thunderbird.
What's the price? 50 twice.

[bobwelch]

28. Correction

you young people - that last line should be "40 twice"

[King_Klonopin]

58. HA! I love being referred to as young at 54 years old!

I stand corrected, sir! (Welcome to the world of DU BTW)

[alterfurz]

45. and for those of us older than dirt...

What's the word? Thunderbird!
How's it sold? Good and cold.
What's the jive? Bird's alive.
What's the price? Thirty twice.

[nomorenomore08]

18. Plenty of good tasting $5-10 wines out there. Yes, the "inflation" in aged wine prices is bullshit

ultimately. We recently had a 50-plus-year-old bottle of Bourdeaux for my uncle's 70th birthday, and while it didn't taste "bad" - sort of cognac-like actually - there was definitely a hint of vinegar in there. Was probably aged at least a decade too long.

[go west young man]

37. Air got into the bottle.

Most likely from a rotting cork which is common in kept old wines.

[nomorenomore08]

47. Makes sense. It was a nice wine overall, just a little pungent. Hadn't been ideally stored either.

I suppose that, as someone who almost never spends more than $10 on a bottle, I'm not the foremost authority on what constitutes "good wine." But in most cases I don't taste a great deal of difference between say, a $5 bottle and a $30 bottle.

[Kablooie]

19. Nothing's better than a nice glass of Lafite Manischewitz and some fava beans.

Ffff-ffff-ffff-ffff

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

20. Someone once gave me a bottle of 16% Old Vine Zin once. I sure enjoyed it.

A delightful aroma and a smooth in the mouth taste.

I have fermented my own grapes, apples, pears and plums. The one bottle of plum was vinegar. And some cider has gone to vinegar too. But I usually enjoy what we brew, and buy the 2 buck Chuck at Trader Joe's, the Merlot is what we had for dinner.

[SheilaT]

21. Wine is not bullshit. But pretentiousness connected to wine is.

There's a wine guy in the Kansas City area, Doug Frost, who's not only VERY educated about wines, but is very willing to diffuse the bullshit connected to wine. (Truth in advertizing here: I've taken math classes from Doug's brother Jeff)

Several years ago Doug Frost was doing a wine-tasting thing at the local public radio station right before Thanksgiving, when many people want to serve wine and are concerned about quality, and what goes with what. The tasters were staffers at the radio station. Anyway, Doug was being informative, uncorking various bottles, explaining stuff about wine as the staffers tasted Here's the interesting part: He uncorked one bottle, poured it, then you could hear him start to say something and stop himself. The staffers tasted the wine, and each one said something along the lines of, "I'm sorry, I'm probably wrong, but I just don't like this one." Doug let each one speak, and then said something like, "Very good. You've just demonstrated how the average person can tell the difference between a good wine and one that has gone off." He then went on to explain that this particular wine had gone off, and he realized it as soon as he'd uncorked the bottle, but decided to let the staffers taste anyway. Which is why he'd started to say something and then stopped He wanted to make the point that the average, not very knowledgeable wine drinker could immediately spot a wine that was off.

I did a quick internet search to see if I could find the program I'm describing, but could not. It happened in 2007 or 2006, so too long ago to be available.

The entire point is that the individual, as Doug Frost has said over and over, can trust his or her own taste. If you like a wine, it's a good wine. If you don't it's not a good one for you. And there's a noticeable difference between a wine you don't happen to like, and one that's just not working for you.

I've also communicated with him once or twice by email, and he's reinforced the notion that what the individual likes is just fine. He agreed that unless you have lots of money to burn, you can get perfectly good wines for under $30, and often well under that amount.

[BlueMTexpat]

31. +1000! eom

[Paladin]

38. +1001. (nt)

[adirondacker]

42. Excellent story and message! nt

[DonCoquixote]

23. Yes and No

There is a LOT of BS regarding Expensive wines, especially as a lot of it is centered around what people THINK Wine should be. Yes, there are good french Wines, but there is a reason why places like California and Chile are picking up actual medals. What makes thing worse is that a lot of Wealthy types: celebrities, Wall Street Pirates, have made expensive Vines, thinking that just because they could afford expensive wine means they know how to make it. Of course, they buy reviews and product placement.

[MADem]

24. In Europe I always bought my wine, when I bought it, by the liter, BYOB.

It was like a gas station, only indoors and more hygienic. You brought your bottles, they got filled up with what you wanted, and you paid. Very simple, and always good. No sulfites.

[Enthusiast]

26. I firmly believe in low priced California wines.

I have yet to open one that I felt was awful, regardless of the price.

[nomorenomore08]

48. +1

Even Two Buck Chuck is perfectly drinkable, if maybe not so subtle or complex taste-wise. I'm a Cabernet man myself and I've had plenty of tasty ones for under (sometimes well under) 10 bucks.

[aristocles]

27. Not if it comes in a twist top bottle or plastic bag in a box.

Then it's just good!

[BlueMTexpat]

30. No, wine itself is not bullshit.

But a lot of the hype around it certainly is. Good wines can be found for surprisingly cheap prices and they are every bit as enjoyable as expensive ones.

[seabeckind]

32. No, it's not.

In order to recognise a wine you like from one you don't like you must become experienced in the different tastes and relate those flavors to your own particular ideas. The important thing is to do your own judgement. The bullshit part comes from those people who don't understand their own taste and are too much influenced by other people. Too often they don't want to invest the time.

And different wines work differently depending on many external environmental factors. You have to be able to adjust for those factors. I have found that a particular cabernet might be excellent during a comfortable cool evening among friends but totally unacceptable during a cookout on a hot afternoon with those same friends.

A lot like single malt scotch... it's an acquired taste, where acquired means you learn to concentrate on the experience and its feedback.

My biggest complaint about the wine industry is the commercialization of it where the winery has moved from producing a product that they are passionate about to a profitable product. That the wine has become less important than the profit from its production. The old craftsman has been pushed aside by the MBA.

Like so many other things in our modern culture -- furniture comes to mind. And don't get me started on the snooze media.

Along with the profit business is the idea of wine "clubs" where a winery uses customer loyalty to offload bad vintages that they would otherwise have to discount.

[seabeckind]

33. As fas as a twistoff?

I prefer it.

I have found that it's one of the newer innovations that improves the product. Fewer failures.

To cling to the cork except when it is a necessary part of the experience seems a bit republican to me.

[mainer]

35. Twist-offs save vintners 5 - 10% loss from corked spoilage

So I say yes to twist-offs. Besides which, they're easier to open.

[Aristus]

36. I enjoy a variety of excellent wines priced in the $15-$25-per-bottle range.

No need to pay more...

[Ratty]

39. I used to be into expensive wines

Like $35-$40 expensive. But one day I realized sure, I could taste a difference, but turns out I really don't care. Now I'm all about cheap wines. A glass of Franzia after work really hits the spot. At the discount store I found a bottle of Chardonnay called "El Corazon." $2.99 and it was excellent. Wish I'd stocked up because they don't seem to sell it anymore. I tried the Two Buck Chuck at Trader Joe's but didn't care for it. Finding an excellent cheap wine has a thrill all it's own.

[libodem]

50. I prefer Vella

Cheap and good.

[GP6971]

51. Of course it is. n/t

[HockeyMom]

52. As an Italian/American,

wine was just a part of life growing up.

[Squinch]

54. I always thought I had no palate. Maybe I was just honest.