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Crazy Conservatives on “Was America Founded as a Christian Nation?” (Original Post) AustinSanders Aug 2013 OP
They also believe the world is just 6000 years old and flat. Dawson Leery Aug 2013 #1
That's True AustinSanders Aug 2013 #2
They weren't always so crazy. Nixon won the first election in which I was eligible to vote maddiemom Aug 2013 #16
Without a liberal Congress and a liberal establishment and an operating press corps truebluegreen Aug 2013 #19
Nor do I, and I tend to agree that things were more liberal in general in those days; maddiemom Aug 2013 #22
On our campus, he was known as King Richard. DhhD Aug 2013 #25
Was that anything to do with the Steely Dan song. I think it was called "Kings." maddiemom Aug 2013 #27
Here skamaria Aug 2013 #28
Ok. Im watch your introduction video right now... bunnies Aug 2013 #3
Yep 15 years young. AustinSanders Aug 2013 #4
I wish I was half that smart at that age. bunnies Aug 2013 #5
Hopefully AustinSanders Aug 2013 #6
WV has always struck me as... bunnies Aug 2013 #8
I am actually. AustinSanders Aug 2013 #9
Ive got to tell you, Austin... bunnies Aug 2013 #13
Thank you so much! AustinSanders Aug 2013 #31
I lived in both southern W.VA, and eastern Kentucky during the seventies, and always maddiemom Aug 2013 #20
Ive had very limited interaction with people of both states... bunnies Aug 2013 #24
Most right-wingers have absolutely no clue LibAsHell Aug 2013 #7
They really don't like fact or history to be honest. AustinSanders Aug 2013 #10
Why should they care about math and science? LibAsHell Aug 2013 #11
Thanks! AustinSanders Aug 2013 #12
Look who the Republicans have as their spoke-people. The same ignorant... BlueJazz Aug 2013 #14
Another LIE from the Right is Liberalism wants everyone to worship government. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #15
The problem with this question, is the Answer is "Yes AND No" and they can not handle that answer happyslug Aug 2013 #17
Let us not forget... Half-Century Man Aug 2013 #18
None of these freshman22 Aug 2013 #21
The "gospel" according to the Isoldeblue Aug 2013 #23
I'm losing some friends over this Populist_Prole Aug 2013 #26
You're right. AustinSanders Aug 2013 #30
*sigh* Mort Rainey Aug 2013 #29
note how they claim to be Christians azureblue Aug 2013 #32

AustinSanders

(134 posts)
2. That's True
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:12 PM
Aug 2013

Conservatives don't enjoy facts. As Bill Maher once said, "Trying to get today’s Republican to accept basic facts is like trying to get your dog to take a pill. You have to feed them the truth wrapped in a piece of boloney, hold their snout shut, and stroke their throats. And even then, just when you think they’ve swallowed it, the spit it out on the linoleum."

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
16. They weren't always so crazy. Nixon won the first election in which I was eligible to vote
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 06:36 PM
Aug 2013

(1968) and I was devastated. I despised the man and he screwed over the Viet Nam peace talks to win, although we didn't know it at the time. Nonetheless. I'd be happy to see that paranoid SOB in place of the Republicans we have today. He actually made some progress. He cared about his legacy, for one thing. Despite their pandering to the "Christian" right in their moral crusades, Republicans today seem to definitely be closet Atheists who don't respect the teachings of Christ. They must know that if they believed in Hell, they'd definitely be headed there due to their contempt for their( non super wealthy )fellow man.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
19. Without a liberal Congress and a liberal establishment and an operating press corps
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 07:21 PM
Aug 2013

he'd be just as batshit crazy as the rest of them. I don't miss Tricky Dick.

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
22. Nor do I, and I tend to agree that things were more liberal in general in those days;
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 07:50 PM
Aug 2013

but I can't imagine him cuddling up to the tea party now that the "Commie" scare that he exploited is long gone. I can't see Reagan or the Bushes supporting OSHA or anything like it, or not being psycho about any raises in taxes when needed. Nixon was the last old-fashioned Republican who didn't try to destroy the two party system , just wanted to be POTUS whatever it took. Once in office, he calmed down until paranoid reelection concerns got him crazy. He wanted to be a world leader more than he wanted to destroy the opposition party beyond his own reelection concerns. I doubt it ever occurred to him to destroy the Democrats beyond his personal election concerns. Destroying your opponent? Certainly. Tearing down the entire electoral system? Something new.

skamaria

(327 posts)
28. Here
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 10:41 AM
Aug 2013


KINGS

Now they lay his body down
Sad old men who run this town
I still recall the way
He led the charge and saved the day
Blue blood and rain
I can hear the bugle playin'

CHORUS:
We seen the last of Good King Richard
Ring out the past his name lives on
Roll out the bones and raise up your pitcher
Raise up your glass to Good King John

While he plundered far and wide
All his starving children cried
And though we sung his fame
We all went hungry just the same
He meant to shine
To the end of the line
 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
3. Ok. Im watch your introduction video right now...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:15 PM
Aug 2013

and I am completely blown away. 15? Really? 15?! Youve got an amazing future in front of you, my friend. Well done.

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
5. I wish I was half that smart at that age.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:20 PM
Aug 2013

And from WV too, huh? Hot damn. Politics in your future?

AustinSanders

(134 posts)
6. Hopefully
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:24 PM
Aug 2013

West Virginia is still pretty Conservative, however when you look at West Virginia as a whole we're a working class state which is good when you're turning people away from Conservatism.

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
8. WV has always struck me as...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:37 PM
Aug 2013

one of those states whose majority consistently votes against its own self interests. You and I both know that the right wing couldnt care less about those in the working class. Or any class other than upper for that matter. Thats why they use social issues and religion to suck people in. Drives me nuts.

Are you in a liberal area of WV? Im assuming there is one.

AustinSanders

(134 posts)
9. I am actually.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:40 PM
Aug 2013

The Huntington Metro Area is pretty liberal, although most of the liberal areas are located in the northern panhandle near PA.

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
13. Ive got to tell you, Austin...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:52 PM
Aug 2013

youve done me a world of good today. Its so nice to know that you and others like you are out there. Plugged in and paying attention. You give me hope for the future, which I often lack, and I thank you for that. Also, Im young enough that I'll still be kicking (hopefully) if you do decide to run for office. So when you get donations from a woman in NH with the word "bunnies" in the note, you'll know why.

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
20. I lived in both southern W.VA, and eastern Kentucky during the seventies, and always
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 07:25 PM
Aug 2013

thought that east Kentucky was closer to the stereotype most people had of W.VA at that time. In both areas, the people were very warm, however, to non-natives who were open to them. West Virginia adored Jay Rockefeller who'd originally come in with Vista (I think), and served as a congressman, governor, and is still a senator. As such, and now in his seventies, he's no longer as dynamic. Nonetheless, he's a Democrat and W.VA. folks I knew for years were still pretty much Democrats, rarely racist as much as in other areas and usually didn't vote against their interests. (Non-racist, of course, meaning reality as opposed to what many of us would like things to be).

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
24. Ive had very limited interaction with people of both states...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 09:01 PM
Aug 2013

Ive only my experience of driving through them while traveling with my Mom to TN. But from what I saw... your post makes perfect sense to me. I have a bit of a soft spot for WV. KY... not so much.

LibAsHell

(180 posts)
7. Most right-wingers have absolutely no clue
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:37 PM
Aug 2013

that god was introduced to coins, bills, and the pledge much later in America's history. None. They live in a fantasy world where all these things occurred at America's inception for the sole purpose of identifying America as a "Christian nation." Ignorance is bliss.

AustinSanders

(134 posts)
10. They really don't like fact or history to be honest.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:44 PM
Aug 2013

They also feel that the spelling system along with Math and Science are proof of evil liberal indoctrination. That's why you see so many misspelled signs at tea party rallies. lol

LibAsHell

(180 posts)
11. Why should they care about math and science?
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:47 PM
Aug 2013

Jayzus is coming back to Earth during their lifetimes and then they'll be whisked off into the afterlife without a care in the world.

Anyway, good video; subscribed.

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
14. Look who the Republicans have as their spoke-people. The same ignorant...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 05:00 PM
Aug 2013

...."not very smart" individuals that have been consistently wrong regarding just about every subject known to man.

They are a threat to the Earth, it's people and the happiness of everyone.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
17. The problem with this question, is the Answer is "Yes AND No" and they can not handle that answer
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 06:40 PM
Aug 2013

In the 1700s, the push was for a stronger and unified state (as in France being a central state as opposed to collections of fiefdoms). The Religious wars of the 1600s had been more regional wars within nations then anything about religion (Thus those areas of France tied in with trade turned to Calvinism, while those areas of France tied in with grain crops stayed Catholic, this was also seen elsewhere in Europe).

In the 1500s, and the start of the Reformation, the Protestants wanted to "Reform" The Church. Most reformers quickly looked for allies and that ended up being the lower Nobility, who quickly saw that the Reformation could be a land gain for them. To keep these lesser nobility loyal to the Protestant Cause, it quickly became the policy of most Protestants to close down the Monasteries and Convents and turn those lands over to these lesser nobility. Other lands held by the Catholic Church was also turned over to these nobility (Sweden went so far as to reverse any gift of land to the Church if made in the 200 year PRIOR to the Reformation, thus permitting the Royal Family AND the Nobility to get control of these lands for themselves). This went all through the early 1500s, then the Catholic Church addressed most of the religious issues raised by the Protestants (Adopting most of them). The problem was that by then Protestantism had embraced so many lesser Nobles who had STOLEN lands from the Church, that such Nobles would OPPOSE rejoining the Catholic Church for fears that if they did, the Catholics would sooner or later demand that the land stolen from them be returned to the Church.

The Catholic Church in the mid 1500s, in the Council of Trent, addressed most of the Religious Dogmatic disputes with the Protestants (By accepted almost all of them, the biggest exception was that the Pope and the Clergy be independent of the Government). This seems to have stop the Spread of Protestantism and you had the Counter Reformation that slowly drove back the spread of Protestantism from the mid 1500s to the early 1600s. One of the biggest chanced the Catholic Church did was to accept all of the theft (for that what he was) and just concentrate on winning back religious convents.

This was actually easier then I wrote, mostly due to the suppression of the Peasants, who wanted true land reform by the lesser Nobles under the approval of Martin Luther. The Peasants tried to achieve such land reform but were suppressed by the lesser Nobles, and this tended to reduce they support for Protestantism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Peasants'_War
http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Luther-Peasants.html

Thus when Queen Mary (NOT Mary of Scotland, but the elder sister of Elizabeth) became Queen, she refused to take back the lands taken by her Father, King Henry VIII from the Church. Instead she promised the then owners of those properties that they could keep them under her rule, as long as they returned to the Catholic Faith. This was opposed by the Nobility for it strengthened her support among the peasants, and they saw it as a long term plan for the Church to regain those lands by just waiting. Queen Mary was also opposed by the growing Puritan movement among the Commercial traders of London, and Southern England. The Puritans were tied in with trade with Europe, and while less concerned about who owned the land of England, was concerned about their contacts in Europe.

Since the end of the 100 Years was in the early 1400s, the mills that processed wool had shifted from Flanders to the Netherlands (and it is believe this move is why the 100 year was ended, England no longer had a reason to fight, the mills it had been protecting was by 1400 in the Netherlands which was technically part of Germany, NOT Flanders, which was technically part of France. The wool trade was all important to England. Wool was raised in England, then shipped to Holland for processing. This was the biggest trade in Europe, and why the Netherlands embraced Calvinism so hard (Calvinism tended to justify wealth for its own sake, i.e. a sign of God's Grace, unlike Catholicism that said wealth was something you possession to use to help mankind as a whole).

When Elizabeth became Queen, she had to compromise between the Puritans (England's name for its followers of John Calvin), the lesser nobility whose title to land came from Henry's VIII's theft from the Catholic Church, and the Catholics, who seems to the Majority, but had almost no support among the Nobility OR Upper Middle Class (With certain important exceptions).

This pattern happened in most of Europe, except in "Catholic" areas you did not have someone stealing the lands of the Catholic Church, thus the Nobility had no land whose ownership was in question. Thus in Catholic Lands, the older Nobility and the peasants tended to stay Catholics. On the other hand most of the areas with trade, tended to turn Calvinistic. In Lutheran lands, the Nobility, many having lands that had belongs to the Church opposed rejoining the Church for HOW they became owner of those lands MAY come up. As in Catholic Areas, Puritans tended to take over areas of trade (and tended to be most suppressed then in Catholic States).

That was the situation when the 30 year war started in the Early 1600s. Catholicism was on the March NOT Protestantism and the 30 year was was started by Protestants who feared that if Catholics managed to get back in power in Protestant nations, they would return all the lands stolen from the Church to the Church. By 1648, even the Catholic Church had said that was impossible, and with the Protestants also accepting that position, the War of Religion ended (Notice the dispute was over who owned what property NOT over any real conflict in dogma).

Notice the key to the Religious wars of the 1600s was ownership of land AND trade. i.e. Commence. Even religious writers of the time would mention this fact, and play down the role of religion in the wars of the 1600s. Protestants kept up a fear of Catholics, but more to scare people that they may lose they lands THEN for religious reasons. A good example of this is the Battle of the Dunes, the only time Oliver Cromwell, the Puritan ruler of England at the End of the English Civil War, ever fought on foreign soil. In the Battle of the Dunes, Cardinal Mazarin promised Cromwell the City of Calais, if Cromwell would support Mazarin against the Spanish holding that city. Thus you had Radical Puritan Cromwell, allied with a Cardinal of the Catholic Church against Catholic Spanish Troops AND Protestants supporters of the Future King Charles II. Mazarin and Cromwell won, Calais became English (With the promise that the Catholics In Calais would retain their churches and worship in peace, a promise Cromwell kept). Now, Cromwell died within two years and in the mess that followed his death, Charles II was returned to the Throne of England. To help pay for that throne, Charles II sold Calais to Mazarin. Thus Cromwell was the Last English Ruler of Calais, a City on the Coast of France that had been off and on held by the English since the time of the English Conquest.

Yes, the "Wars of Religion" were bloody, but more due to MONEY and who could control land and trade then over Religion. On the other hand, the role of Religion is how one saw one's role in life often determined your religion at that time period.

Peasants who worked the land and their superiors, tended to remain Catholic (Thus Ireland tended to be Catholic for, as a whole, it is a better Agricultural area then England as a whole). The Catholic Church position that you can NOT get to heaven UNLESS you have done good works, help encourage such good works among the peasants, including working together for the common good.

People involved in trade (Either by Wagon OR Ship), tended to embrace Calvinism, for its emphases on God's grace was shown by how much wealth God permitted you to have.

Lutheran's were a little bit of both, but tied in with ownership of land. Thus Catholic -Lutheran fights after 1648 were NOT that bloody, for the religious dispute was seen as being minor.

Into the above situation American was born in the 1600s and early 1700s. A lot of Protestants tended to oppose Catholicism with fears that the Catholic would take all of their lands (a common charge in England at that time period), on the other hand the Puritans were running most of the trade that ran between what would become the US and Europe.

Religion was important, and who you supported in the American Revolution often followed Religious lines. For example the Congregations, Presbyterians and other Puritans, "Reform" and Calvinistic religions supported the Revolution almost 100%. The reason is these groups either was involved in Trade OR on the Frontier and the British restrictions on trade AND the Frontier hurt them the worse (London after 1763 wanted British traders to replace the French Traders who had traded with the Native Americans prior to 1763 and the British conquest of Canada, but the American Colonies wanted to control that trade themselves AND also move into the lands of the Native Americans).

In many ways the War for Independence has been called a Presbyterian war for Independence, for the Calvinistic religions ended up supporting the war almost 100%. How bad these Calvinists wanted independence is best shown when the French Fleet docked in Boston after the French had declared war on Britain. A high ranking French Noble died while the ships were docked. The French arranged a CATHOLIC Funeral for this man. Boston, helped the French plan and do the Funeral. As late as the first year of the War for Independence, the people of Boston would have an annual celebration to celebrate they they were NOT Catholic (and it was clearly an Anti-Catholic celebration). Such celebrations were stopped after the French entered the War (and did not resume after the War) for the simple reason the Puritans of Boston WANTED independence and that required an Alliance with Catholic France. Thus they backed down on their traditional hatred of Catholicism to win independence.

To permit a Catholic Mass would have been unheard of in 1774 a violating Protestant Dogma, but one was held IN PUBLIC in 1779 for the Alliance to get Independence was more important then maintaining a dogma NOT necessary for maintenance of their religion.

Now, the South was Anglican, Methodist and Baptist (Presbyterian on the Frontier). The Anglican Church supported the Crown, thus lost out when Independence was achieved (and Anglicans only held on for it was the Church the South ran its welfare program through them. "Separation of Church and State" became the dogma of the South AFTER the end of the Revolution, more to force the widows and orphans kept by the Anglican Church to go to the Frontier and take land from the Native Americans, and thus reduce cost of Welfare, then any other reason, i.e. to reduce cost to the State NOT to separate the State from the Church). With this removal of welfare from the Anglican (renamed the Episcopal Church) the South switched from Anglican to a mix Methodist and Baptist religion (and with the Methodist slowly embracing abolition of Slavery, becoming more and more Baptist, for it was the only religion left that could be made to tolerate Slavery as a RIGHT as opposed to a necessary evil through the Presbyterian church thrived, but had to break with its northern branch over Slavery).

Thus the US was religious during the Revolution, and your religion often determined which side you supported, for your religion reflected your connections with other people American AND even Europe. Quakers and Anglicans supported the Crown, for these religions were the one most tied in with land ownership (Quakers in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, Anglicans in the American South). The various Calvinistic religions supported the Revolution, for such religions were either tied in with trade OR settlement of the Frontier. Catholics and Lutherans tended to go with whatever other religion was the Majority in their are (and that tended to be Presbyterians). Baptists seems to follow what the Catholics and Lutherans did, but being smaller churches the record is less clear (and often technically NOT "Religion" in many colonies, remember we are talking about a time BEFORE the first Amendment was adopted).

Yes, this is a long paper, for the answer to the question is complex. Religions was a factor, for that is how most people decided which side to support in the Revolution. The problem is that most people's religion often reflected not only their religious beliefs BUT what they did and thus decided who they would support in the Revolution.

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
18. Let us not forget...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 06:49 PM
Aug 2013

...most of the Founding Fathers were Masons. Hard core enlightenment types. Rejectors of established religions.

When the RW believes so many stupid rumors about the modern Masons, why would they think the Masons of the revolutionary period would have been religious? Or do they think the Founding Fathers as a group, were involved in some vast Mason infiltration plot?

Isoldeblue

(1,135 posts)
23. The "gospel" according to the
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 08:51 PM
Aug 2013

rethugs makes me puke. Their sanctimonious, self-righteousness is sheer hypocrisy. They say they are God-fearing until they are asked to be their brother's keeper. And any verses to do with the meek inheriting the earth, or that the greatest of these is love or the camel who will get through the eye of a needle easier than a rich man getting into heaven, doesn't exist for them.

It's as if they are brain dead when it comes to understanding that our constitution is so clear about our laws in government, when it comes to religion and church. It's either one or the other. You can't have both in a democratic government. I've tried to explain it to some family, that we wouldn't want any religion to rule us and there are no exceptions.
They prefer to have their entitled, willful ignorance, instead.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
26. I'm losing some friends over this
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 02:39 AM
Aug 2013

It was never really an issue before, I mean, it was never really discussed. Because of this I'm guessing they thought I was a sort of silent ally and I thought of them as live and let live types. Since the Obama presidency they've lurched hard right; and though they spew the standard other RW talking points, they've really used the "christian nation" bullshit as their ultimate fallback position and our differences are sharp. They're not rational. We rarely talk anymore.

I feel just fine. I have no problems with latent nutjobs going out of my life.

AustinSanders

(134 posts)
30. You're right.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:38 PM
Aug 2013

Leaders of the Republican party today actually aren’t Republican at all, these people are too crazy to be considered Republican.

azureblue

(2,144 posts)
32. note how they claim to be Christians
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 04:13 PM
Aug 2013

but almost never quote the teachings of Jesus. In fact, they do the direct opposite, all the time. Want to shut these yahoos up? When they say "God says"or "the Bible says" ask them, "but what did Christ say? After all, you ARE a Christian, are you not?"

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