Debate: Do Venezuelan Protests Reflect Popular Discontent, or the Old Qualms of a Divided Elite?

[alp227]

From the March 7 Democracy Now: The ongoing protests in Venezuela have left at least 20 people dead since breaking out last month. Both sides have staged massive rallies, with opponents accusing President Nicolas Maduro of authoritarianism and mishandling the economy and supporters backing his continuation of Hugo Chavez's legacy of social welfare. Maduro has bristled at outside attempts to intervene. We host a debate on who is protesting in Venezuela, and why, with two guests: Margarita López Maya, a Venezuelan historian and political analyst with the Center for Development Studies at the Central University of Venezuela; and Roberto Lovato, a writer with New American Media who recently returned from reporting in Caracas.

Transcript; video:

[Perseus]

1. If you read the transcript you will find

a significant difference, one story from someone who actually lives in Venezuela and that Of Lovato who does not. I have friends in Venezuela and their description of the situation matches 100% that of MARGARITA LÓPEZ MAYA, who does live in Venezuela.

I am not sure what makes Lovato an expert when he doesn't live there, and I have to question Democracy Now who continues to interview people about the Venezuelan situation who seem to have some connection with the Venezuelan regime.

200,000 people have been killed since Chavez took power from the hands of armed thugs who he called their "Bolivarian Militia", these are people taken out of jails and former gerrilleros. The 200,000 people killed were from robberies, and shootings between gangs, also this is an "official" number, it is unknown how many people have been killed and not reported. The shootings go on in the barrios, some of the people killed there are buried/burned and noone reclaims them, it is a fact of daily life in the Barrios.

I believe that it was last December, a former Miss Venezuela who lived in Miami decide to go to Venezuela on vacation with her husband and five-year-old daughter, they were robbed by a small gang of 15 to 18 year olds, they killed her and her husband and shot the little girl on the leg. This happens every day, the thugs in motorcycles stop by your car, in day light, in traffic where hundreds of people can see them, they ask for your wallet, your cell phone, and whatever they can spot inside the car, if you don't give them what they want they shoot you, get off the bike, open the doors and take what they were asking for, like nothing happened...well, this is the Venezuela that Chavez created and that Maduro wants to perpetuate with "enhancements".

Here you can read about it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2537411/Miss-Venezuela-husband-shot-dead-daughter-laid-rest-amid-emotional-chaotic-scenes-hundreds-turn-mourn-brutal-murders.html


If you go on youtube find the videos where you see thugs on motorcycles, which were provided by the government, shooting at people, burning cars, shooting at the buildings, vandalizing, beating up students...Maduro and Diosdado Cabello publicly announced they had given orders to the "Colectivos" and "Tupamaros" to "put out the fire" on the student protests.

There is no food, no medicines, no free media...Lovato takes as an argument the fact that the protests are happening in selected sectors in Caracas, and Margarita Lopez Maya explains well the reason, but that doesn't mean that the barrios have not joined the protests, they have, but because of logistics the marches have to be carried out in specific areas, this is information that Lovato cannot provide because it is easy to be a socialist when you live in the USA and you don't have to worry about rationing of food, water, electricity while you see your supposed leaders do the opposite of their rhetoric.

They claim to hate the "Empire" (USA), but they all have investments here, they come to visit the "Empire" every year and spend the dollars of which they only have unlimited access.

The cubanization of Venezuela is a fact, and the Venezuelan people don't want it, and I have a hard time understanding why the USA seems so detached from all that is happening in South America, and the conflict in Venezuela. It does make one wonder. South America is falling through the USA fingers, like water, more "socialists" are being elected to office (Chile), and all these pseudo socialists are following a common plan which is to enrich themselves while oppressing their respective countries by Cuban orders; Cuba is becoming a major player in the World, they are the new "Conquistadores", and the USA is sitting idle while this happens.

I may sound like a scratched album (for those old enough to understand what that means), but I urge everyone to go to youtube and find out about the riches of the Chavez family, to Google Diosdado Cabello's house in the "Coutry Club" in Caracas, which is one of the wealthiest areas in that city, and see how the "socialists" live, it is all lies, all they want is to keep hold of power for them to continue to rob the country. The Chavez family's fortune is estimated at $1.9 billion...all of Chavez relatives held offices while he was president, and they may still do...is it coincidence that a very poor family accumulates that fortune in 15 years without corruption practices? Please...and while preaching that "Being Rich is bad" like Chavez used to say in his speeches?

Find out for yourself, the Venezuelan regime is being controlled by Cuba, and the Castro brothers are very smart, they know how to pull the strings, they know how to keep the USA at a distance, and they have known all along that as long as Venezuela provides the precious oil to the USA, our government will be kept at bay. They have also bought many of the South American "leaders", and that is the reason for their silence.

Democracy Now has lost all credibility as far as I am concerned, not that my opinion matters to them, but it is disappointing that a "news" group that I used to respect has uncovered their real selves and I have to wonder if they have any connection with the Venezuelan regime, I hope that the Young Turks would continue their investigation as they did with their show on "This Is Why We NEED Independent Media".

It is very hard to know who to believe nowadays, it is very frustrating that those you think are searching for the truth suddenly show their true colors.

Never believe first hand what people tell you, do your research, things don't seem to ever be what we think they are. As I said, I have friends and family who are living every day the real situation in Venezuela, I keep in contact with them every day, and the story is not how Democracy Now wants you to think that it is, and I have to wonder what other lies have they reported on just to keep their agenda, which at this time I don't know what it is.

[zeemike]

2. Yep Democracy Now has lost all credibility

Because they present the other side.
Credibility is now defined as presenting one side and calling it the truth.

[fasttense]

3. Wow, you certainly covered all the right wing talking points and strategies.

First you attack the reporter. Not both reporters, just the one you disagree with. You attack his credentials as if he has no experience reporting. He actually just returned from Venezuela and reported what he saw. But since he disagrees with you, he personally must be attacked.

Then you attack Chavez. I think the rich elites have hated Chavez ever since he insulted the bushes.

Then you blame the high crime rate on the socialist government because we all know there are no high crime rates in capitalist countries. But the crime rate was high in Venezuela when the rich elites were in control too. But socialism is suppose to cure all evils immediately.

Then you complain about shortages. Those shortages are being caused by the uber rich elite in order to make the poor suffer for daring to vote in socialism.

Then you contradict yourself by complaining about US involvement and the lack of US involvement. The truth is the Obama administration has a line item in his budget to fund opposition groups in Venezuela. So that should cheer you up. It should also thrill you that many rich elites in the US, like the Koch brothers, are also throwing money at opposition groups in Venezuela.

Then you return to your favorite topic - trashing Chavez yet again.

These exact same talking points and strategies can be heard on Fox Noise and from most RepubliCONS whenever the subject of Venezuela comes up.

[Perseus]

4. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Do some fact checking because you need to get informed before you criticize the facts (facts) that I am presenting. No, the lack of food. medicine, services, etc. are not a conspiracy from the uber-rich, and if you bother to take the time you will find that the uber-rich is composed of the chavista regime, many entrepreneurs who built their companies from scratch have been disposed of their businesses by the regime, that is how they have managed to make their money.

Take a trip to Venezuela, and see for yourself, or at least do some research.

Did you take the time to go to the link I provided? If you didn't then do so, and do your research. Can you tell me why the protests started?

There is a difference to going to Venezuela while being sponsored by the regime, and another to go on your own and see the reality. How do you explain the fact that all media has been banned from Venezuela, all reporters, and the only ones allowed to do any reporting are those connected to the regime? I have to believe that Mr. Lovato has some connection with the regime and he saw what they wanted him to see. He talks about a minority that go to the marches, have you taken the time to look at the pictures? You obviously have not. If you take a trip to Cuba you will see a different place that the one the people who live there, it is all catered to the foreign visitors.

Yes, I do trash Chavez, he had the opportunity to make something beautiful out of Venezuela, he could have been the second Simon Bolivar (do you know who Simon Bolivar was?), but he missed the opportunity. He did inherit a country that was corrupt and had been the victim of bad governments, but he made it worst, he was just a puppet of the Cuban regime, as is Maduro. The only defense I can make of Chavez is that, by the end he seemed to have change somewhat and wanted to start doing good, but the Cuban regime would not have it, and his mistake was going to Cuba for "cures".

Do you live in Venezuela? Do you know what you are talking about? I don't live there anymore, but I have friends and family, and they are not uber-rich, you really don't know what you are talking about.

You claim that all my talking points are those of Fox News, on the contrary, all the rhetoric and manipulation from the chavista regime approximates more that of the republicans and fox news than anything I have said, you have your understandings of both switched.

[rdharma]

6. "I'm not spouting Fox News propaganda...... you are!"

Very Pee Wee Hermanesque debate technique you employed there, Perseus.

[Perseus]

8. I hate to say it, but you are spouting ignorance.

[Perseus]

9. But you don't present any arguments of facts at all.

Can you provide any? What is your experience, where are your facts.

You make a very poor argument if the only thing you do is criticize whatever I say with no real counter argument, I would hope that you can do better than that.

Saying that I "spout" fox news propaganda doesn't do it, there are no real arguments or facts presented in there.

Go ahead, do your homework, I am sure anyone who wants to learn can wait for you t come up with solid arguments.

[fasttense]

10. And yet another right wing strategy, to insult anyone who disagrees with you.

You must get tired of allowing others to determine what to think.

[rdharma]

5. I noticed that too. nt

[Perseus]

7. On bush

If you must know, I predicted on 2000 that if Bush won, that he would become the worst president this country has ever had, I did not vote for him and would not vote for any Bush, or any neocons for that matter. I feel that the exchange that Bush and Chavez had during those years was just theatrics, nothing else...You see, dictators always need someone for the people to hate, even though they may love in private, but that show that Chavez put against the "Imperio" played well with his followers, but the people with regime are always vacationing here...I am sure you have avoided to find Chavez daughter's picture with Justin Beaver...

You wrote this and I forgot to answer:
"Then you blame the high crime rate on the socialist government because we all know there are no high crime rates in capitalist countries. But the crime rate was high in Venezuela when the rich elites were in control too. But socialism is suppose to cure all evils immediately."

No, high crime was not what it is today, since Chavez took office there have been, as I reported before, 200,000 accounted deaths.

For your information, I grew up in Venezuela, I used to go out with friends to parties, discotheques, etc and be out until 06:00am the next morning, and my parents never worried because Venezuela was a safe place, it stopped being safe when Chavez gave weapons and motorcycles to the "colectivos" and "tupamaros". Your comment that Venezuela was not safe before Chavez is not true, and inmaduro (immature) comment "But socialism is suppose to cure all evils immediately.", you call fifteen years "immediately"? You have to be kidding!!

When you have 200,000 crimes for petty thefts like the one on the link I posted which you obviously did not go to, and petty I mean, a cell phone, a camera, 100 bolivares, a pair of tennis shoes, that was created by Chavez...Fifteen years of rule...and why do you think Maduro is not interested in ending that? Ask yourself that question and try to come up with a good answer.

You really do not know what you are talking about.

[rdharma]

11. Chavez' daughter was in a picture with Justin Beaver?

I'm shocked! Truly shocked I tell you!

You're getting more Pee Wee Hermanesque as the thread progresses. Sad.

[Perseus]

12. This is the last response to you, but here is a link...enjoy

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092529/Ch-vezs-daughter-sparks-anger-Venezuela-posting-photo-holding-wad-greenbacks.html

Please don't bother to reply, I will not read it, you d=can't seem to be able to hold a fact-based exchange, or maybe you are a Chavista?...have fun.

[rdharma]

14. I'm shocked once again! She must have more than $65 there!

No wonder you have your hair on fire!

[fasttense]

13. Well I didn't see you here on DU even in 2004.

to defend the bushes, oops, I mean defame the bushes.

Wow, you must be rich to be able to party all night long at discotheques and your parents are cool with it. Here in the US, I would be very nervous if my teenage children stayed out all night long.

How long did Venezuela have the rich elites ruling before they voted in the socialist party? I'll bet you it was much longer than 15 years. You expect the new socialist government to correct centuries of abuse in 15 years? You have a lot of faith in your socialist government.