"Collapsing Ukraine?"Crosstalk's Peter Lavelle has Grinning RW'er Join Panel..(He's Clueless!)

[KoKo]

(seriously Great Watch!)
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Is it Collapsing Ukraine?
March 25, 2014 02:30


The illegal western backed coup in Kiev continues to shape and re-shape Russia's relations with the West. Will the West continue to support the hunta in Kiev? And should Russia care of its dismissal from G8?

CrossTalking with Johan Bäckman, Andy Martin and William Blum.

[The Magistrate]

1. There Is Nothing Illegal About The Present Government In Ukraine, Ma'am

There is something quite illegal about the Russian annexation of Crimea, and would be much illegal about any Russian incursion across the eastern borders of Ukraine.

[zeemike]

2. So then if the Tea Party overthrows the government

Through violent protest and forces Obama to flee the country and installs their own government it is legal?
That should give the tea baggers hope...and they heard it justified right here at DU.

[The Magistrate]

3. They Will Not Succeed At It, Sir

And if they did, they would, like it or not, be the government, and would be recognized as such by most of the world.

People have a right to revolutionize against their government; they have no right to succeed, but they certainly have the right to try, though the government they oppose also has the right to defend itself, and to punish them should they fail, just as the police and adherents of a regime overthrown may face dire consequences.

"On the eve of battle a general was asked by one of his soldiers whether he was actually a rebel or not, and he replied, 'If we lose, we are the rebel army. If we win, we are the loyal army.'"

[zeemike]

4. So success is the criteria.

I see...That was also the feeling of the Fascist...As Hitler said, "It is not truth that matters, but victory."

[The Magistrate]

5. Pretty Much, Sir

Hitler liked jelly omlettes, too, and was a dedicated vegetarian: I expect he used soap in a shower and got wet in the rain and was unable to float up into the air like a soap-bubble, which it would seem in your view ought to exempt everyone from observing the fact of gravity....

"I don't make the rules, I don't even always play by them, but I know what they are."

[zeemike]

9. So you don't make the rules you just use them to justify things.

If someone makes a rule that is the end of it...it must be followed...because the end is justified by the rules.
Thank you sir...that is informative.

[The Magistrate]

10. I Recognize What Is, Sir

And the fact is that a successful revolution was pitched in Ukraine. I have no particular objection to this, and see no reason to believe it did not express the popular will of most Ukrainians. A revolutionary government, in power and exercising power, is as legitimate as any other. Go back far enough, you will find very few governments that do not trace to revolution or conquest at their roots. Our own country would be one prominent example. It makes very little sense for a person of the left to denounce the legitimacy of revolution and governments brought to power by revolution: leftism is a revolutionary creed, and most of our objectives, if we take a cold view of the matter, probably would require revolution to achieve, so for a leftist to disown revolution as a legitimate exercise is to pretty much forego any prospect of achieving the full range of left goals.

[KoKo]

11. Did you see the Clueless Fool tarted out from Faux News..half drunk who didn't

know what he was talking about. He was a treat. Although Peter doesn't usually have such as that on his panels.. Surely, he was placed there for Comedic Effect to remind us mindless Cable TV.

Did you see that fool? The lower left on the Screen Capture he wasn't even prepared to participate in the discussion. I was cooking dinner and watching and didn't catch his name. Sorry I didn't but, we had a trying day at work and I was whipping together what I could...and focused on the debate/dialogue.

[The Magistrate]

12. Andy Martin Is No Prize, Ma'am

A charter member of the 'Obama's a Mooslim' club, a birther, a man with a serious case of Jew-hate, who has been ruled a vexatious litigant by the Federal courts....

[KoKo]

13. We all have a right to our opinions. Your assessment of Abby is your own...

but I've not seen her spout nonsense like you accuse her of and I've watched her show since she replaced "Alonya." What I like is that she covers the Progressive Democratic Human Rights Issues...that are little discussed these days even though, as more is revealed, THEY were the ISSUES that are current in our News These Days because of the Abuses that were done under Republicans and Democrats.

But...it's your opinion. It's what dialogue is about.

I know we differ.

[The Magistrate]

14. Andy, Ma'am, Not Abby

The fellow you were pointing out.

[KoKo]

15. I did quick search and it's a common name..but is this the Andy Martin are talking about?

There was no photo so I can't identify...but, the Andy Martin who wrote this book would seem to sound like what you were talking about. Although in quick search saw no Birther or other stuff about him. His book was published by Barnes & Noble and not Regnery RW Publishing House....so that would make him not sound like RW Crazie.

However, what I like about the "Crossfire Show" is that they have a different Panel for every show. It's DIVERSE. Where here in America can you find a discussion that has THREE VIEWS instead of TWO VIEWS form the "usual think tank feed."

So...don't know if this, Andy Martin, is the one you are talking about..but, I stand by Peter's show as one of the best shows I've seen for differing views in our current media sphere. I did not have time to do a "Deep Weed Search" on Andy Martin to find out if he is an Alex Jones or Hannity or Beck/Limbaugh fan. I don't watch those shows and don't have time to bother with it.

Obama: The Man Behind the Mask

Legendary Chicago Internet columnist, analyst and investigator Andy Martin was the first author to research and expose serious questions about Senator Barak Obama's life. Martin has consistently beaten Chicago's mainstream media with important news and analysis about Obama's rise to power. Because of his long experience in Illinois and Chicago politics, Andy Martin was the first to pursue extensive research into Obama's tainted associates.

This provocative book is a collection of Andy Martin's Obama columns together with extensive new analysis and interpretation.

This book is not a biography; rather it is a work-in-progress, as we try to comprehend how Obama rose from the sewers of Chicago politics to being a serious candidate for President of the United States.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/obama-andy-martin/1013062961?ean=9780965781244

Anyway.... always find your posts interesting.

[The Magistrate]

16. That's the Fella, Ma'am

We in Illinois have long been familiar with the wretch....

[zeemike]

22. Well indeed our own country came out of revolution

and so did many in the past...but there is a difference and that is democracy, which allows for a revolution in a peaceful manner...We revolted because there was no government that could be changed...it was controlled by a king, just as Russia was and France.
And we are talking about a democratically elected government here and if the people wanted change they had the vote to do it.

You cannot be for democracy if you say a violent revolution to over throw a duly elected government is normal...and if you do you justify the tea party doing the same here.

And if you look at the approval rate of our congress at something like 10% they can justify it.
But yes we need a revolution here too, but not a coup, which always ends up putting the power hungry in power and makes things much worse, as I suspect we will see in the Ukraine...as the right wing comes into power.

[The Magistrate]

23. Nonesense, Sir: Revolution is Revolution

Like other acts of political violence, it consists of one group imposing its will on another or others. The character of a government has no bearing on the general case; it may condition how one feels about a particular instance of revolution, but that is a separate question. There are and have been revolutions I support and approve, revolutions I oppose and denounce, and revolutions I have no strong feelings about either way. Your attempt to differentiate between a revolution and coup is nonesense; a coup is simply a revolution achieved on a small scale, by a sudden blow, with less initial effort. In common parlance, use of the term coup is taken to indicate a revolution by a clique of people inside the government being overthrown, rather than a thing which has a popular element and mass support.

[zeemike]

24. Well you sure disassembled that one

Good revolutions, bad revolution, ones you approve of, ones you don't, a coup is just one.

But what I get from all of that is that if you approve of the coup and if they get away with it, is what makes it right...no principles need apply.

[The Magistrate]

26. Then You Continue To Either Fail To Take, Or Evade, The Point, Sir

If a revolution succeeds in overthrowing an existing government, and establishing itself as the government in being, then that is the government, and it is as legal as any other. My approval or disapproval matters no more than yours: the thing is a fact. People have a right to make revolutions, and again, have this right whether or not I or you approve or disapprove of them doing so in some particular instance.

[zeemike]

27. Then you agree that what they did in the Crimea is legal.

Only there revolution was done by a vote instead of a violent overthrow of the government.
Which is how democracy is supposed to work to have a revolution...or does it have to be violent in order for you to recognize it?

[The Magistrate]

28. Moving Russian Troops Off their Bases, Sir

Violated the treaty which allowed their residence in the bases.

Annexing Crimean violated a treaty guaranteeing the territorial integrity of Ukraine, in exchange for Ukraine giving up a fair-sized nuclear arsenal it inherited with the collapse of the Soviet Union, said treaty being signed by Russia, the United States, England, and France, along with Ukraine.

That annexation is a fact is certainly recognized by me, though I expect there will be some diplomatic posturing over it for a while ( it took many years for the United States to recognize revolutionary governments in the Soviet Union and China, and I believe we still do not recognize that in Cuba, though everyone else does ). I would consider, for example, that an attempt Ukraine forces to expel Russia from Crimea would place the onus of actually commencing open hostilities on Ukraine, though had they from the start resisted militarily the actions of Russia when Russian troops first moved out of their bases, I would have considered Russia to bear the onus of commencing hostilities. But as matters stand now, Russia holds the Crimea, and it exercise of governmental authority there is as legitimate as any other exercise of government authority anywhere else.

[zeemike]

29. I'll take that as a yes.

Although you seem reluctant to say so...but glad we are on the same page there.

[ljm2002]

6. If the present government of Ukraine is legal...

...then their Constitution is null and void, since it makes no provision for the government being taken over by a coup.

That being the case, it is hard to see how the Crimean vote was illegitimate. Illegitimate because a null and void Constitution says so? Do tell.

[The Magistrate]

7. And When The Parliament Votes Unanimously On a Course, Sir, There Is No Coup

Chanting 'coup' like a mantra does not make it a fact. As stated above, people have a right to revolutionize, though they have no right to succeed at it.

The military actions taken by Russia in Crimea were illegal, both under terms of treaty with Ukraine, and with international guarantees of which Russia was one of the signatory powers. A secessionist referendum held under occupation by a foreign power intent on annexation will seldom be viewed as a legitimate expression of popular will by any save the annexing power and its close friends and relatives....

[KoKo]

8. Excellent Question...as you state it...for sure...

We shall see ....what the replies are...

[DeSwiss]

17. ....

[The Magistrate]

20. Batchelor Of Science, Sir?

Your meaning is unclear....

[DeSwiss]

21. Bovem Stercore.

- From the Latin......

[DeSwiss]

18. K&R

[swilton]

19. Great Show

Thanks for posting! Wish they could have substituted someone other than the Republican strategist but the other guests were super!

[jakeXT]

25. Join the free world? Does he know how much the US buys from China?

At least he got Benghazi into the discussion.