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Related: About this forumBill Maher and Ben Affleck Battle Over Radical Islam - " They Will F*cking Kill You! "
I think Bill Maher's disdain for religion is getting the better of him on this issue.
Thom Hartman often refutes those who claim Islam is about killing and violence.
A quick google search also turned up this interesting article regarding the quran:
http://www.islamicwritings.org/quran/peace/does-the-quran-teach-violence/
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merrily
(45,251 posts)comedy/commentary.
When on The View, Behar was always 100% certain that she knew more about the topic than everyone else on the panel--maybe everyone else in the country--and she often did. But when she was dead wrong on the facts, she was still 100% certain she was not only correct, but "correcter" than everyone else. And that is how Maher is.
That's one of the drawbacks of being very well educated... you become used to being right...so when you're wrong, confirmation bias is usually awfully powerful.
I'm with you... I like some of his material... in a few cases like this, I have to wince.
merrily
(45,251 posts)go hand in hand.
On the other hand, I don't think George Carlin went to college.
Still, I think the confirmation bias bit still applies.
1monster
(11,012 posts)I've known many college graduates who were about as educated as a box of rocks, and I've known more than a few people who never set foot in a college who were better educated and more knowledgeable than the average Ph.D.
The difference between college-educated and self-educated is that one means an institution chose what you should learn, from whom, and how far to study. The other is that a person choses for him/herself what to learn, from whom, and how far to take that field of study.
A college education is, on average, three to five years. Self-education is life long.
Veilex
(1,555 posts)I don't disagree with any point you've made.
I will say this though, college does make it a lot easier to get educated.
1monster
(11,012 posts)I entered college far better educated than many of the students in their second and third years... The difference was that I came from an area with excellent schools and I was a decent student.
I'm not sure that college is what makes it easier to get educated. I think that how good your elementary and secondary educations were, and whether or not you had the drive to learn (self motivated or parentally motivated) to make the most of that education.
Veilex
(1,555 posts)Motivation and opportunity (also known as access).
Motivation alone can certainly carry you a good distance.
However, without access to higher levels of information,
often provided through on the job training, specialty schools
or colleges/universities, a person can only go so far.
Having access to enormous amounts of
information/training/education/higher learning is virtually
pointless if a person isn't motivated to learn.
Of course, we could go into what constitutes the components of
motivation, but its not really necessary in this case.
valerief
(53,235 posts)manipulate them. That's what religion is for. Maher was pointing out that too many Muslims were brainwashed into believing the more deadly punishments in Islam are appropriate. The many Muslims who disagree can't disagree aloud for fear of being punished with the loss of their lives. Which is precisely Maher's point.
Catholics can tell the Pope to take a flying leap when he tells them they're going to rot in Hell for using birth control. And they don't get dead for saying it.
I'm no fan of ANY religion, but the ones that kill you for leaving it or drawing certain pictures about it either need to change their policies or fold up forever.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Islam did not kill anyone for drawing certain pictures. Many people were killed by individual Muslims protesting the cartoons of Mohammed, but that is on those individuals.
valerief
(53,235 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)Lots of Muslims had a lot of hate over the cartoons.
merrily
(45,251 posts)If the Pope orders a riot, you can blame it on the Pope, maybe even on Catholicism. But, there is no counterpart in Islam. Are there extreme Muslims? Hell, yes. Out of over 2 billion Muslims, some are way too extreme. But that is them, not Islam.
valerief
(53,235 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)All 2.2 billion Muslims did not riot, nor were they directed by Islam to riot. There are actions of individuals who are members of a religion and then there is what a religion teaches. Islam did not teach them to riot, anymore than the Bible taught Phelps to disrupt the funerals of members of the U.S. military.
valerief
(53,235 posts)the Protestant religion isn't a clusterfuck of religious leaders damning gay people to Hell.
Forget what the books say. Look at what the leaders do.
merrily
(45,251 posts)It is in the OT, supposedly carried forward to the NT by things written by the Apostle Paul and determined by the "undivided Church" to be part of the NT. Hence, the idea that homosexuality offends God is an official part of Orthodox Judaism and Christianity.
Christianity, however, does not say you should kill or humiliate or shun anyone over it. That is on those who preach such things and those who do such things.
valerief
(53,235 posts)the followers to do TODAY.
Look at our Constitution and look at how Congress has raped it and SCOTUS has tortured it.
merrily
(45,251 posts)about homosexuals, what were you referring to?
phil89
(1,043 posts)such a harmful, oppressive institution.
Veilex
(1,555 posts)... with the loss of their lives." - A very valid point. Too often religion is used as a tool for manipulation... typically based of fear of reprisal or eternal damnation.
I think Ben had a good point too, that Bill was painting with too broad a brush.
I'm not overly fond of religion either... though it appears that the teachings of Islam (the Qur'an) does not condone killing someone who leaves the religion.
No where in the Qur'an is punishment for apostasy prescribed, even though the Qur'an mentions apostasy in several verses.
Additionally, prescribing the death penalty for apostasy appears to contradict the following verse of the Qur'an:
"...There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is here forth distinct from error..." [2:256]
http://www.ascertainthetruth.com/att/index.php/al-islam/understaningalislam/61-death-for-apostasy-is-un-islamic-and-not-in-the-quran
valerief
(53,235 posts)monsters. They don't want to kill people they disagree with (punch maybe but not kill 
). Our political leaders--and in the Muslim world that's often religious leaders--DO want bloodshed ($$$) and they prod their minions into it. And when it comes to religion, it doesn't matter what any book says. It's how the leaders use that religion to get their followers to do their bidding.
Because the wealthy and powerful use the weak and poor to fight their battles so that they can walk off with all the money. That goes for actual battles and ideological ones as well.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)They'll say it was a poll of 4627 people out of a billion and a half and for all we know they tossed out 10,000 results that didn't fit their goal of making everyone over there look like the enemy.
We need to realize the war is one between our Right Wing and their Right Wing.
Cayenne
(480 posts)It's okay to bash Islam under the umbrella of 'religion' generally but not Islam specifically. Xtians can't be led in prayer in school (I'm okay with that), but we should accommodate the moslem call to prayer, remove pork, install foot baths.
merrily
(45,251 posts)during school hours? (Silent Christian prayer during school hours never is--and cannot be--forbidden.)
Islam requires prayer at certain times, preceded by washing.
Yet, I bet there is more of Christians being led in prayer in schools--not to mention other public places-- going on than there is installation of foot baths in public schools.
The notion that Christians are deprived in this country is played out.
Cayenne
(480 posts)I don't want the call to prayer on our school PAs. Pork is good food and does not need to be pulled because the crazies can't deal. The notion that moslems are deprived is played out to.
merrily
(45,251 posts)The notion that moslems are deprived is played out to.
When was the last time Christians got arrested for praying in an airport?
Cayenne
(480 posts)So 1A is for moslems but not xtians? This is just the cowardice Bill Maher was talking about. Moslem prayer does not belong in public school anymore than Xtain prayer. The law should make no distinction but you think it should?
merrily
(45,251 posts)Nor did I say it's never happened in any school.
Freedom of religion and reasonable accomodation of religious beliefs does not mean denying Muslim students freedom to practice what their religion actually requires of them while allowing Christian kids to do whatever they feel like, even if their religion does not require it AND it subjects other students to it.
Try reading what my posts actually said.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts). . . is primarily about whether the school organizes and leads it. But there is nothing under the law that prevents a school from accommodating those who wish to pray, be they Christian OR Muslim!
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)
merrily
(45,251 posts)
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)i have a friend who says "chinese restaurants are the only place HaShem (god) does not see what you're eating".
there was a time when catholics could not eat meat on fridays.
killing went on in ireland for years because of religion.
islam is a peaceful religion and shouldn't be judged by the radical element.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)BUT they don't extend that phobic viewpoint to the Christian cray-cray and trust me, there's plenty. I'm a Christian BUT I have NEVER understood using the Bible to jusify racism, abuse, xenophobia when it teaches EXACTLY the opposite. Yep, Sunday morning is one of the CRAZIEST hours in America and though the radical perpetrators try to run from it, Jesus NEVER taught ANY of it!!
Love your post! 
merrily
(45,251 posts)And meatless Fridays were only an economic accommodation to fishers to start with, not anything derived from the Bible.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)It kinds makes me mad that they threw sin into the equation for eating meat on Friday's during Lent instead of perhaps using it as a tool for sacrifice. I still don't eat meat on Friday's during Lent, but if I forget or am at friends home who are not Catholic having meat, I will eat it and find something else to do for Lent that week. I just say they could have "sold" meat on Friday differently.
merrily
(45,251 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)You don't have to pull pork from school menus to comply with religious freedom. Just don't actually force people whose religions forbid it to eat it, and post notices about which dishes may contain pork products. I suspect any hardcore fundamentalist types will be packing their own lunches anyway, to guarantee that the food they eat is kosher, halal, whatever.
And the only schools I've ever been in that I heard any religion over the intercom were Catholic schools, when I was working on their computers. I never heard prayers at school when I was in public schools. Christian, Muslim, or anything.
Mister Nightowl
(396 posts)Sam Harris: "We have been sold this meme of Islamophobia, where every criticism of the doctrine of Islam gets conflated with bigotry toward Muslims as people."
Replace Islamophobia with anti-semitism, where any criticism of Israeli governmental policy gets conflated with bigotry toward Jews as people.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Criticism of Islam, well-founded or not, does equal criticism of a religion.
Criticism of Israel, well-founded or not, does not equal criticism of a religion.
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)Mister Nightowl
(396 posts)Enjoy!
?list=UUy6kyFxaMqGtpE3pQTflK8A
Fearless
(18,421 posts)blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)demwing
(16,916 posts)I'm compassionate, educated, and religious.
What else ya got?
merrily
(45,251 posts)something is wrong somewhere.
And liberals failed us? WTF? What terrible consequences have come from liberals refusal to paint with a too broad brush? Liberals have been up the asses of which Arab governments, exactly? It wasn't liberals who thought it was okay to incorporate sharia law into the Constitution of Iraq on the watch of the US government, either.
Maher doesn't even have his facts right on the numbers. Neither does Harris. Muslims are not a billion people or 1.5 billion. More like 2.2 billion.
As far as thinking of the right way to deal with things, ask American Christians what they think is the right way to deal with members of the GLBT community and feminists and see what answers you get. And those answers won't even be the ones our government pushes. Sure, it may not be stoning, but they probably wouldn't say that cutting off a hand is an appropriate punishment for theft, either.
Sorry, bashing liberals for refusal to stereotype or to discriminate by religion is bullshit. You can blame that on the Founders and their silly Bill of Rights and the guaranty of equal protection in the 14th Amendment.
PeoViejo
(2,178 posts)I knew Tony Mendez, and he's no Tony Mendez, not by a long shot. Doesn't even look like him...Why do people think that Actors suddenly suddenly become Sages, when all they did was play a fictional part in a semi-fictional Film, produced to make the CIA look like the Good Guys, for once in a Blue Moon.
demwing
(16,916 posts)It's you that's falsely attributes qualities and skillsets by pretending that actors cannot have a viable, factually correct opinion on political, social, and economic topics.
What makes Bill Maher's opinion more heavily weighted than Ben Affleck's?
Paladin
(28,262 posts)There's a growing sentiment that the only way to deal with radical Islam is to wipe the entire religion from the planet. I think that's the way Maher is headed, if he isn't fully there, already. Affleck got it right---from what I could make out, given all the shouting.....
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)It is often difficult to trace the history of the United States' involvement with—and responsibility for—the evolution of radical Islamism around the world; many of the CIA's activities in support of Islamist groups were often covert, and a great deal of misinformation exists. Robert Dreyfuss' new book, Devil's Game: How the United States Helped Unleash Fundamentalist Islam, is an attempt at a comprehensive overview of this story, recounting how the CIA, guided by the belief that radical Islamist forces could act as a bulwark against communism, helped fuel the rise of political Islam and militant fundamentalism in the Middle East and Central Asia
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2006/01/americas-devils-game-extremist-islam
Lobo27
(753 posts)Thats what I do to not let any bias creep in.
demwing
(16,916 posts)maybe it's one you can live with, but the bias has already crept in. Too late.
Lobo27
(753 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)have a strong sense of civil rights, liberal democracy, and rule of law. We must remember some of these goverments actively encourage religious extremism and pit different fractions against one another.
In the west most but not all nations have transitioned to liberal democracy and have gone through the growing pains that come with it. We have learned for the most part how to contain violent religious extremism. I say for the most part.
We have 2000 years of Christian and 1400 years of Islamic history to show when a state is theocratic members of both religion do violent and ungodly things.
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)or longs for their death as their religion (which is all three major ones) are a scourge and a virus on this planet and to all human beings. all they can think about is dying and their after life , while making all of us suffer the way we are 'supposed to' in life to get our reward when we die. its bullshit. mindless cogs. believing in a higher being is one thing but thinking everyone should be just like you or they deserve suffering, either now or when they die, is a fucked up notion.
still_one
(92,216 posts)program to the degree that he wasn't actually listening to what was being said.
However, all in all it was a good discussion.
As far as Maher's position along with his guest could be interpreted that fundamentalist religion in general is intolerant of others
That point went over the head of Affleck I think. When he made the point how Turkey was a wonderful Muslim country he glossed over the point that Turkey is secular, and many of the countries in that area are not. Turkey also has a lot of issues. For one, they still do not accept responsibility for the "Armenian genocide". Another issue is there is a fundamentalist movement within Turkey that is gaining more power, and it creates a balancing act, along with the issues they have had with the PKK, (Kurds).
It is a very complicated issue, and it was a good discussion
merrily
(45,251 posts)still_one
(92,216 posts)Armenian slaughter
Veilex
(1,555 posts)To me, it looked like Bill was trying to make a point and using faulty pillars of logic to support that point... and it seemed to me that Ben took exception to Bill's point because those pillars were faulty.
An argument becomes invalid if the supporting evidence itself is incorrect.
louis-t
(23,295 posts)He keeps sending me anti-Islam crap and shows me parts of the Koran with violent passages. He says "they have to go kill people to be good Muslims". So I send him the parts of the old testament that say the same things. Not hard to find. Took me about 15 minutes. Deuteronomy, Numbers. "Slay them with the edge of the sword", etc.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)but there's something very interesting about this sort of flailing bigotry: it's 100% arbitrary--always the same regardless of target
last century the insidious, plague-ridden foreigners who had a holy mission to conquer the world, mutilated their own children, and were only a few years away from taking over the US any day now were the ... Chinese
and the era's table-pounding antitheists said that chemistry, art, astronomy, physics, law had been preserved from destruction by ... the Muslims (https://web.archive.org/web/20110911134455/http://www.georgetownbookshop.com/display.asp?cat=32)
much of the 40s and 50s attacks on Reds under the bed were basically cribbed from prewar Jew-baiting
so it's not just that this or that bigotry is wrong in all senses: you have to be against the *next* boogeyman (it's like the bumper sticker that says "I'm Already Against the Next War!"
olegramps
(8,200 posts)Regardless of the religion that they represent they have consistently demonstrated their abuse of personal freedoms. I find the fanatic evangelicals in our nation just as frightening as radical Islamists. The so-called End-Timers and "Dominionists" look to the imminent end of the world as a glorious event. George Bush appeared to endorse this concept discounting the that the end of the world in a "nuclar" holocaust would be catastrophic. Then we all will be in heaven. People in power who subscribe to such hideous beliefs could intentionally bring about our destruction. I would conclude that Islamists , just like other radicals are a significant danger and must be contained if not eliminated. To a certain extent I have to also conclude that the rather restrained response by the Middle East countries in countering the Islamists has not be encouraging, but perhaps they will be forced to recognize that their own theocracies are in danger or even more extreme rivals.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)'gotten to know a lot of Muslim kids and their parents, I definitely have to go with Ben on this, granted almost all the boys were named Mohammed, although this wasn't the name that they went by outside of school). My favorite Muslim parents were the guy who was always dressed in casual sweat clothes, while his wife managed to find amazingly gorgeous variations on the traditional women's clothing: subtle makeup,and polished toenails peeking out. Living in western Pennsylvania, the photo I would loved to have snapped was of an Amish woman and a Muslim mom exchanging babies and chatting. Amazing but true. A Turkish Muslim man I knew was always anxious to sort things out for his wife and kids . If the craziest "Christians " had their way, we'd be executing anyone who'd had abortion; One lone "crazy" has publicaly made that cla
Veilex
(1,555 posts)Thank you for sharing that.
Truly.
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)It reminds you that everyone different is an "other" until you get to know them. I would guess the Amish and Muslim mothers felt they had something in common.
Bill Maher could learn a lot from you.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)sense in finishing. The Amish/Muslim baby exchange was probably the greatest thing I'll ever remember in my life. And I was at Woodstock before it was famous.
wheniwasincongress
(1,307 posts)However what was up with Ben Affleck? He seemed like he was on something.
Veilex
(1,555 posts)He probably had quite a bit of adrenalin going through his system, which can make you all kinds of jittery and makes you phrase things in a ways you didn't quite intend.
wheniwasincongress
(1,307 posts)looking red and a bit sweaty before too
Veilex
(1,555 posts)I'll have to take your word for it as I did not see the entirety of the show.
2banon
(7,321 posts)
blackspade
(10,056 posts) markpkessinger
(8,401 posts). . . but I have always found him to be needlessly over-the-top when it comes to religion and most particularly Islam. I don't agree with the tenets of Islam any more than Maher does, but the question I always come back to is, "Is this really constructive in terms of fostering any real dialogue or understanding?" I can't really see how it could be.
Darkhawk32
(2,100 posts)that Muslims are, at its core, radicals out to kill those who don't believe. And with that, the moderates are "on the fringe". That's islamophobic.
If that were the case, we'd have hundreds of millions of Muslims waging war against us right now and its certainly not the case.
The only reason why Islam has some of these horrific people at its fringe is because they don't have enough secular firewalls around it (unaffiliated police forces, court system, functioning democracies). And the main reason they don't is that we've (U.S.) made it a policy to overthrow said democracies and prop up fundamentalist dictators.
If you put any religious in that scenario, you'd get the same result.
Ineeda
(3,626 posts)You'd better believe that without the restraints of our laws (actual and social), our own homegrown radical xian fundamentalists would be stoning and beheading all over the place. Here. In the good ol' US of A.
I'm on team Ben on this. Maher has a blind spot when it comes to religion, and when the premise of "all" is used for or against any group, it's fucked up.
