Socialist Europe pays higher taxes? BS

[AZ Progressive]

Michael Moore explains it, in France's case:

However, VAT tax percentages in europe are on average more than double of the sales taxes in the U.S. Also, Michael Moore should have said "pre-paid" rather than "free" as healthcare and education are already charged through taxes. But the tax system there gives tremendous benefits, not having to worry about not being able to pay your healthcare bills, or not having to worry about paying your student loan bills, especially if you then find out that that field wasn't the right field for you, or doesn't have enough jobs available.

[GeoWilliam750]

1. This needs to be expanded upon further

When people talk about lower taxes somewhere, commonly they are paying away a large part of their income to somebody else. Effectively privatising public services, which almost never works out for the public good.

[SwissTony]

2. It depends what you're paying for

In the UK, it can be 20%, 65 or 0%.

Rate % of VAT What the rate applies to
Standard 20% Most goods and services
Reduced rate 5% Some goods and services, eg children’s car seats and home energy
Zero rate 0% Zero-rated goods and services, eg most food and children’s clothes

https://www.gov.uk/vat-rates

On the other hand, it appears that Utah adds 3% to groceries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_States#By_jurisdiction

From that site...

"As of January 1st, 2014, 5 states (Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon) do not levy a sales tax,[1] while California has the highest state tax rate at 7.5%."

So (presumably), if I bought a pair of jeans in Oregon, I pay no tax whereas in Britain I'd pay 20%.

Different folks. Different strokes.

But as Michael says, you don't see the French (or the Brits etc) out in the streets complaining about too much tax.

[swilton]

3. Who cares if they pay higher taxes

When you add up the costs of health care, education and the privatized social services that US citizens pay for, they come out ahead.

[AllyCat]

8. ^this.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

9. Americans are told the people at the bottom are why they pay more....

This is to instill hate for them so you don't want to help them.

They also justify this by claiming the people at the bottom "made bad decisions" that caused them to be there.

I've even heard the claim that helping the poor is against God's will because poverty is God's punishment for sinning.

[swilton]

13. What you are describing is 'social Darwinism'

The elites rose to the top because they were brighter, worked a little harder, were a little more talented - in other words they deserve to be there. It's a might makes right paradigm and it's repeated over and over and over again through mass culture - from infancy (fairy tales in the US for example don't praise the poor).

[Spitfire of ATJ]

14. It's not good for capitalism to present the poor as the hero.

[truebluegreen]

4. +1 for "who cares?"

They get a lot more for their money than the average citizen does here.

[RoccoR5955]

5. This is somewhat true in the Netherlands too

Since I am looking into emigrating there I noticed that their top tax rate is 36%.
Here, between my Federal, State, Social Security I am paying about 40%.
Over there they get healthcare for between 100-150 euros a month.
They have no co-pays.
Here, because I am in a union, I pay about $150/month.
Also, everything that they say about the cost of living there is not true.
The cost of living in a small city there, is about the same as the cost of living in a small city here.
Wages are better there. Retirement benefits are better there.

Just for your info.

[AZ Progressive]

10. One has to also factor that jobs there are more likely to be unionized, and thus pay far better

Also, in Europe I'm betting that none goes bankrupt from health insurance, as well as student loan debt.

[bulloney]

6. France and other European countries also don't think it's their god-given right to invade

any country that doesn't give us their natural resources or anything else we covet.

That's where the lion's share of our tax dollars go - right into the MIC rat hole. We've created most of the situations where we've deployed troops, especially in the Middle East. Nobody, including the teabaggers, seem to make that connection.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

7. But our rich are richer than their rich.

[candelista]

11. The minimum VAT in the EU is 15%; in France, 20%

It's a very regressive tax, since it's the same for everyone, rich or poor. European social programs are much better than in the US, but this is a rotten way to fund them.

[RoccoR5955]

16. From my experience in the Netherlands

The VAT is added to the price that you see when you buy something, not added at the end. So the price that you see advertised is the price you pay. You hardly even know that you are paying VAT. At any rate the prices in the Netherlands, not the big cities in the Netherlands, are comparable to what we pay here in the Northeast before sales tax.

[candelista]

17. Of course it's priced in.

What difference does that make? As far as "comparability" goes, I disagree.

[RoccoR5955]

19. Okay, perhaps your experience was different.

Actually beer over there is cheaper, and gasoline is more expensive. The specific areas I am talking about are Kingston, NY, and Wageningen, Gelderland, NL.
Don't forget that food is measured in kilos and liters. You have to convert it to Imperial measure. I thought that things like foods were more expensive there, until I realized the conversion. That's when it evened out.
Oh, and if I buy clothing online from, say, Land's End, it is actually cheaper to buy it in Europe than the US even with the VAT.

[libdem4life]

12. #6 + ... Standing armies and playing Empire costs a lot.

[DFW]

15. I don't know where he got the 40% figure for France.

Our guys there make a take-home of about €3000 a month. That is about half of their gross pay (all included). On top of that, the employer pays an additional 55% payroll tax ("charges sociales&quot to the government, and there is the aforementioned 21% value-added tax on most items.

It may sound good to say that France only has a 10% income tax, but the truth is that an average employee gets to put less than a third of what they cost their employer in their own pocket. Plus they have a so-called "wealth tax (impôt sur la fortune français )" which forces them to forfeit between 0.5% and 1.5% of their net worth (entry level is €1,300,000), even if it has been taxed already (violates the EU rules on double taxation, but France always went its own way).

It may sound good to say that France only has a 10% income tax, but the truth is that an average employee gets to put less than a third of what they cost their employer in their own pocket. For a while (don't know if it's still true), fine art was excluded from this tax, because Laurent Fabius, a minister in Mitterand's "socialist" government was the son of a prominent art dealer. In France, with the exception of the period immediately following July 14th, 1789, it has always paid to have friends in high places.

[Thespian2]

18. Americans

are good at not noticing how much they are being taxed...because many aren't called taxes...driving home from Florida cost an additional $60 dollars for toll roads...people using those roads are paying a tax that is not called a tax...park your car and shove money into a parking meter...oh, another tax...where do your taxes go? Medical care? no, still run by insurance companies. College education? no, those not wealthy must pay back loans...Americans cannot see the extra taxes they must pay because they are not called taxes...In our province, we pay 14% sales tax (federal/provincial) which pays for health-care, controlled by doctors...so we know where that money goes...do people in the States have any idea where their taxes go?...

[AZ Progressive]

20. As someone who is from the west, I'm appalled that people are so used to toll roads in the east

California has bridge toll roads, and other not necessary toll roads, but other than that there aren't any mandatory toll roads in Arizona or California. In the northeast, you either have to take the tolled I-95 (New Jersey, Maryland), or you have to go much slower taking US-1.

Principal highways in Illinois, Ohio, and Pennsylvania are tolled as well. It's aggravating.