Feeling sorry for Greek gov is like feeling sorry for Goldman Sachs

[uhnope]

Former Greek Finance Minister Stefanos Manos: "In Greece we produce practically nothing, and we were taking on massive debts just to live lavishly."

This included hiring public employees by the hundreds of thousand and plying them with perks. Bonuses were handed out for arriving at work on time and knowing how to use a computer. Forestry workers got bonuses for having to work outdoors. Each state employee got a yearly bonus worth two monthly paychecks regardless of performance. The state-run airline handed out free tickets to voters before an election.

The ruling parties did not want to risk alienating voters by cutting back on any of this so it just kept borrowing money. The arrival of the Euro made this borrowing even easier and cheaper (in the short run).

The Greek government got Goldman Sachs to help them cook their books to hide the fact that they would never be able to pay back the loans.

The reason, according to Manos: "To keep armies of supporters relying on the system."

[Warpy]

1. The problem is that the lavish living was done at the top

and ordinary Greeks didn't benefit from any of the borrowed money.

I have no sympathy for the right wingers who accepted bribes to buy military hardware or take on infrastructure projects that went to rich neighborhoods. I have a great deal of sympathy for farmers who saw olive groves destroyed in the name of driving up the price of the oil they would no longer have to sell.

And yes, those same governments cooked the books with GS's "help." Goldman Sachs used unfavorable and outdated currency exchange rates to increase the hidden debt while they raked of the difference.

Greece needs an audit.

[uhnope]

4. that's not correct. The borrowing allowed extravagant bonuses & pensions for ordinary Greeks

that were given to keep the votes coming in

[Warpy]

5. Extravagant? By whose standard?

Most of the pension amounts I've seen quoted as the top amounts before the brutal cuts came about were about what the average person can expect form our own Social Security.

It's only a princely sum to some right winger who wants to slash it in the hope of getting the money into his own pocket.

[uhnope]

6. Did you even read the OP?

It's Greece's own former Finance Minister that blew the whistle. Greek borrowing went to fund cushier and cushier pensions that rewarded political loyalty--full pension at age 45 in some cases. Regular bonuses were the equivalent of 2 months pay, also paid for with borrowed money. None of that is comparable to Social Security.

+ try http://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/may/07/greek-debt-crisis-jobs

[Warpy]

7. That's agreeing with what I said. The lavish living was only at the top.

Ordinary Greeks never saw it. Now they're being punished for the sins of the few while the few skate away, untouched and only mildly inconvenienced when a local shop shuts down.

[uhnope]

8. But it wasn't "only at the top." These were pensions and bonuses for regular workers

all paid for with borrowed money, given to masses of people in order to keep them voting for the powers that be.

I'm not against good pensions and bonuses in general if a country can afford it. The point is, Greece couldn't afford it but continued anyway, and hid the fact that they couldn't afford it, until their house of cards collapsed.

[daleanime]

11. So the guilty party is actually the Greece People themselves?

and this is all justified?

Right....sure....(backs away slowly)

Have a lovely day(shouted over shoulder as running away)

[unblock]

2. getting angry at the greek government is a bit like hating obama because of shrub.

most of the people who were responsible, on the greek side, for their current debt are out of government, or at least out of significant power. the people in now are trying, perhaps poorly, but trying, to make the best of their mess.

however, the incessant railing on greece for its situation ignores the role of outsiders, not least of which was the rest of the monetary union, which effectively gave greece wealth and credit it probably didn't qualify for, i.e., it gave greece the incentive to do more or less what greece actually did. oh, and then there's that whole global great recession thing that screwed every other country as well, i'm sure that had something to do with it....

but what galls me the most is the irrelevancy of the moralism. yeah, the debtor is at fault. ok, duh, but so what? no modern banker with half a brain can be bothered with any ethical lapses that got the debtor into their dire straits. any sensible banker does the best to recover as much as possible. that rarely involves digging in and insisting on 100% repayment; in fact, that's usually a terrible strategy. best is to figure on getting 60%, or 40%, whatever it is that can reasonably be recovered, and write off the rest. most likely than not, digging in, even if accompanied by preaching, will only delay and extend the losses.

why not take 50% now instead of quite possible winding up with only 30%, 2 years later??

[djean111]

3. I feel sorry for the Greek people who are affected by the austerity, not for the government. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

9. Wrong. Goldman Sachs cooked the books for the right wing government to qualify for the Euro.

[cstanleytech]

10. Its more like Goldman was the egg timer in the kitchen.

The Greek government struck the match, lit the flame, set the temp ,greased and floured the pan, mixed the cake batter, poured it in the pan, placed it in the oven, set the time and then burned the cake because they kept on telling the next administration to check to see if the cake was done but each one kept passing it off to the next administration until they smelled smoke at which point they tried to say "not out fault it was that damn egg timer".

[blackspade]

12. Misleading headline.

It should read: feeling sorry for the former Greek government is like feeling sorry for GS....

The current government is trying to pick up the pieces left by the previous band of thieves.