Video & Multimedia
Related: About this forumDemocracy Now! (April 13): Hillary Clinton's role in the 2009 Honduran coup
Amy Goodman discusses Hillary Clinton's role as Secretary of State in the ouster of the democratically elected president of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya.
[center]
[/center]
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)ashamed of yourself....Pathetic
Phlem
(6,323 posts)All you got is "You really should be ashamed of yourself....Pathetic" BS?
Ashamed for what exactly, showing you the fucking ugly truth?
Pathetic.
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)Bernie should be embarrassed.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)We are all embarrassed.
ish of the hammer
(444 posts)It's hard to defend the indefensible, isn't it. Berta Caceres says you're wrong.
oh wait, she's dead!
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)And I am ashamed to live in a country that habitually overthrows democratically elected governments in Latin America or the Middle East that pose less of a threat to us than our government and private industry poses to the welfare of their people.
If you think I am in error, don't call us names like pathetic. Show us why we are wrong.
don't give a damn about Latin America or the Middle East. Save the sanctimonious attitude.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Next time I have an opinion on any subject, I'll be sure to ask you first what it is.
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)won't be satisfied until Hillary wins this thing....Then what are you going to do?
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Agitate for the end of the neoliberal era and organize a long overdue campaign of civil disobedience and non-cooperation.
Do you see any reason why we shouldn't? Do you think it would not make the world a better place if it succeeds?
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)I hope that happens.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Because neoliberalism has brought the US nothing but a widening income gap, lost jobs, NSA spying, political corruption, pointless wars and contracting democracy.
Thirty-six years of neoliberalism (Reaganomics, trickle-down or supply-side economics) is enough. It must come to an end.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)pottedplant
(94 posts)for not finding this reprehensible. How can you support this? She has blood all over her hands and for what? Protecting corporate interests. She continued our treacherous longstanding history of subverting social justice to Central America. Proud of that?
It's clear, Hillary doesn't give a whit about anyone but the worldwide elite. That's who she'll represent in our White House if she pulls this off. It will be a shit show with a grand facade.
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)is responsible for Central America, even though she has never been President...
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Did she have no authority ior power in that position?
Who do you think carried this out? President Obama. all by himself? The CIA director, exceeding his authority?
pottedplant
(94 posts)Honduras is hers. She owns it. Watch the videos. She pushed for elections despite her own advisors recommendations to reinstate.
And I'm glad you find this so amusing. Enabling a military coup at the expense of a democratically elected president and ingratiating yourself to a murderous dictator is indefensible.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)If they are I want to know your source.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)Lying liar still lies!
We all know she says what she needs to anytime for whatever reason but even her supporters turn a blind and willfully ignore the facts. Even when it's on video in easy to consume format.
Their willful ignorance is going to destroy the fucking country, all because they can't see past the female and look at the politician.
Must Have Woman Prrresssident no matter what. Who cares if she's lies better than a rug because she is telling the truth to me.
We're fucked.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)Yeah, she gets the nomination and we're fucked whether she wins the GE or not, and especially if she doesn't.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)Thanks for posting a truthful video...
Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)Thanks for the thread, Jack Rabbit.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)This is utterly chilling.
elmac
(4,642 posts)Central America, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya = 767,000
Vietnam= 2,000,000
I'm sure I missed a few countries but Coups, nation building, defending democracy, what ever we like to call it, this kind of intervention has serious consequences and needs to end.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)K&R
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)RepubliCON-Watch
(559 posts)Just look at the name, Democarcy Now, how demanding of these people to want democracy right this very minute!
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)defending the indefensible and stretching the truth until it snaps.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)alfredo
(60,074 posts)Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts). . . then she deserves a medal.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Go ahead, say his name.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)I assume you mean the gentleman sitting behind the desk there.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)If Hillary was acting on her own, he has to take responsibility for the overthrow of a democratically elected government because he didn't replace her immediately.
So one way or another, this was Mr. Obama's policy. Is that right?
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)To make her SoS. So sad. She is going to taint his legacy.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)That's the way t works.
Peace Patriot
(24,010 posts)...in both corporate and alternative media. It took me a long time--a couple of years, actually, and not really until the Clinton email revelations--to conclude that the overthrow of Honduran democracy was Clinton's doing, not Obama's. I'm at the 99% point about this. I'm pretty sure of it.
The coup occurred in June 2009, only six months into Obama's term. His initial instinct about it was to say publicly that it was a "military coup" (which it was) and which would have trigged a required legal cutoff of U.S. funds to the coup regime. But after that Obama went silent. He was totally preoccupied, I think, with the global financial meltdown, inherited from the Bush junta, and two clusterfuck wars, inherited from the Bush junta. That would be enough to put ANY leader under water. I think he stopped worrying about Honduras and let his new Secretary of State handle it. I think he may have also required that President Mel Zelaya's life be protected and that there be an election as soon as possible. Then he went back to the THREE enormous problems that required all of his attention and then some.
Clinton continued funding the coup regime. And Clinton's emails reveal that she was dead set against the elected president of Honduras being restored to his rightful office. I do not think that Obama was privy to this Clinton intention. I may be wrong. I admit he's a hard man to read. But I think that this was the kind of thing that Clinton set up her private email server to DO, to keep Obama in the dark about certain things (for instance, her continuing to use Sydney Blumenthal as a consultant, when Obama had forbidden it).
Instead of doing what ALL of Latin America demanded at the time--restoration of Zelaya as president--she pressured the coup regime to hold an election. The trouble was that no reputable election monitoring group on earth would touch it. They all refused. Martial law had been declared. Leftists were being murdered. The conditions for an honest election did not exist. But she held an election anyway, with the U.S. State Department in charge of it. She used outfits like John McCain's International Republican Institute (he had telecommunications interests in Honduras) to pretend to be monitoring the election. The fascists won, of course.
And emboldened by Clinton's support, the rightwing death squad activity escalated, and is on going to this day--with the recent result (this March) of the murder of Berta Caceres, a well-known, indigenous, pro-democracy activist and environmentalist, winner of the Goldman Environmental Prize. She is only one of many who have been murdered, many of the victims being women, who have been notably visible as leaders of peaceful resistance. Gays have also been targeted. And many rapes and other acts of brutality have occurred.
Yes, "the buck stops there" at Obama. But I don't think he wanted it. I think he was distracted and not kept in the loop. I'm not an Obama apologist. I'd say it if I thought he was responsible. I don't think he was. Also, I don't think Clinton designed the coup. I think it was a Bush junta plan, perhaps intended as a 'time bomb' to undermine Obama's stated intention of improving U.S./Latin America relations (which were terrible under the Bush junta). Clinton took the opportunity to feather some nests for her allies and donors, and caused a very serious rift between LatAm leaders and Obama, which he has only recently addressed with his trip to Cuba and support for the Colombia/FARC peace talks.
I don't pretend to understand the insider politics of the Obama administration--why he would let something so terrible as the Honduran coup interfere with his stated goals, why he didn't fire her immediately and so forth. I simply don't know. Maybe he had constraints on him (CIA? Pentagon? Pentagon wanted to expand in Honduras--Zelaya was against it). Or maybe he just failed in a presidential duty, or was so ambivalent about it that Clinton felt free to take the initiative.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)I believe the evidence supports your conclusions. History will not be kind to the Clintons.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)stability is preferred over ideology.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)How did that work out in Honduras? How about in Mrs. Clinton's misadventure in Libya? And, let's not forget her vote to invade Iraq.
In the latter two cases, Mrs. Clinton sided with a different principle, namely, where a strongman was deposed by force and the result was chaos, not stability. In the first case, a democratically elected leader was toppled and stability has proved illusive.
It would not appear that stability is preferred over ideology is the overarching principle here. I might suggest that the problem is that the overarching principle is an ideology called neoliberalism, a badly flawed ideology based on Ayn Rand's view of human nature, Milton Friedman's economic theories and PNAC's silly paper on rebuilding America's "defenses". That has been the bases of American public policy for three and a half decades, and all it's gotten us are debt, income inequality, a shrinking middle class and endless wars to maintain the profits of corporations whose main by-products are smog and greenhouse gases. That's not a formula for a sustainable economy, a healthy environment or world peace.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Business needs a marketplace full of buyers, which is to say a large and prosperous middle class. Under neoliberalism, the middle class is neither large nor prosperous. It has been steadily shrinking since the seventies. The only way business keeps propped up is by extending credit to more people, but that creates debt, not prosperity. In the short run, bankers make out like bandits. There's something at the end of the tunnel, but it's not a light; it's a dark abyss.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)They want a needy workforce they can exploit. The next quarter financials is all that matters.
To change this will take great upheaval, and that is something the vast majority pushed to the point where they have no option.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Now may I ask a question: Which side are you on?
alfredo
(60,074 posts)I have felt the burn of Teargas, and pain of a billy club. You ask me what side am I on. You don't know me, you don't know my struggles, and my sense of justice. I am a union man, and will be until the day I die.
If you find my answer insufficient, you can take a flying leap
I'm done here I am tired of answering questions from people that parrot right wing anti Hillary propaganda and come across as authoritarian.
I like both Bernie and Hillary, but I find the Bernie supporter rigid and see everything as black and white. That is turning me off Bernie.
I have never blocked anyone, you could be the first if you question my dedication to social justice.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)I'm 64, on disability for depression. I did my service after the Vietnam war was over and dodged into the army to sit out a recession.
A friend of mine is going through chemo and radiation. She's 58 and was part of the movement that brought down Communism in Poland. I keep telling her she's got to hang around. We Yanks may be the next to need to know how to bring down a decaying, tyrannical system.
You hang around, too, please.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)I am certainly not on the side of the goons.
I served in Army Intel 65 69. I joined and volunteered for Nam, but got sent to Africa.
If my body was not so arthritic and beaten down I'd be on the barracades. Social upheaval is for the young. It is their duty. I'm a 100% disabled old fart. I would be easy pickings for the cops.
People have to be ready for radical change, and as we see, Americans don't act until the wolf is at the door. It has to be of the educated middle class, and the landed gentry know that. Right now the fear of their mortgage is greater than the fear of an authoritarian state. Until that changes they will vote for stability and incremental change. That is why we got Obamacare instead of single payer.
reACTIONary
(5,770 posts).... don't actually have to live with it might over value instability. Since stability is good for business , so the thinking goes , it can't possibly be good for anything or anyone else.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)flamingdem
(39,313 posts)with a pool of equally disgusting righties from congress.
This was payback to the right wing.
Hillary is fully responsible for those deaths that she so disgustingly denies matter when saying they "avoided violence".
senz
(11,945 posts)I hope Bernie can head her off at the nomination. She is just so wrong for the position.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)with more reasons she is the wrong person to be president.
sus453
(164 posts)role in the coup that overthrew Salvador Allende (a democratic socialist) and brought General Pinochet to power at the cost of thousands of lives. How can anyone defend this?