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Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:00 PM Apr 2016

Democracy Now! (April 13): Hillary Clinton's role in the 2009 Honduran coup

Amy Goodman discusses Hillary Clinton's role as Secretary of State in the ouster of the democratically elected president of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya.
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Democracy Now! (April 13): Hillary Clinton's role in the 2009 Honduran coup (Original Post) Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 OP
You really should be asuhornets Apr 2016 #1
So you're not denying the fact that she's an Oscar worthy liar. Phlem Apr 2016 #3
With supporters like you.... asuhornets Apr 2016 #4
With voters like you Phlem Apr 2016 #5
I'm embarrassed for the supporters of Clinton. ish of the hammer Apr 2016 #20
Sir/Madam, I think imperialism is pathetic Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #7
you asuhornets Apr 2016 #9
Apparently, you are a better expert on what I think than I am Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #12
Well you and the rest of his supporters asuhornets Apr 2016 #14
What we will do if Bernie is elected Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #17
If he wins asuhornets Apr 2016 #19
You understand that if he wins or loses, it is what we will do Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #23
Absolutely, it is what we will do. nt malokvale77 Apr 2016 #36
You should be ashamed of yourself pottedplant Apr 2016 #8
So now Hillary asuhornets Apr 2016 #10
No, but she was Secretary of State Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #15
straw man pottedplant Apr 2016 #16
Oh FFS! BeanMusical Apr 2016 #25
I sincerely want to know why Dana Frank's statements are untrue. Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #51
I had just posted and older video of her lying about Bosnia. Phlem Apr 2016 #2
LIAR LIAR Pantsuit on FIRE...She's one self-serving individual. SammyWinstonJack Apr 2016 #6
K & R !!! to the Max... Thespian2 Apr 2016 #11
These two videos should be mandatory viewing. Uncle Joe Apr 2016 #13
Mandatory viewing...Yes, they should passiveporcupine Apr 2016 #41
Rough total of civilian deaths do to US invention since the Vietnam war elmac Apr 2016 #18
Good post. Mandatory viewing for any voter. EndElectoral Apr 2016 #21
We can do better MissDeeds Apr 2016 #22
Thanks for posting this. Cheese Sandwich Apr 2016 #24
But this is definitely a right-wing source. RepubliCON-Watch Apr 2016 #26
her interview was a classic example of washington-speak-- Fast Walker 52 Apr 2016 #27
Kick and R BeanMusical Apr 2016 #28
She was implicated in the sack of Rome, and painful rectal itch. alfredo Apr 2016 #29
If she had anything to do with Alaric getting justice for his people from Rome . . . Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #30
True, but her job is to represent the president. She doesn't make policy. alfredo Apr 2016 #32
So who takes responsibility for her actions in Honduras? Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #33
The buck stops in the Oval office. alfredo Apr 2016 #34
Thank you Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #35
Yes, Obama. A cabinet member going rogue isn't long for the job alfredo Apr 2016 #37
Yes, you're absolutely right Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #39
Obama will rue the day he agreed Politicalboi Apr 2016 #31
Obama makes the policy, she carries it out. alfredo Apr 2016 #38
No, I don't really agree with that. I followed those events very closely... Peace Patriot Apr 2016 #42
Rogue SOS? noiretextatique Apr 2016 #43
the us always sides with a strongman they can control. alfredo Apr 2016 #44
How has that worked out? Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #46
I didn't say it's a good thing. Stability is good for business, that's all. alfredo Apr 2016 #47
What this leads to is not good for business or anything else Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #48
The neos are not interested with fate of the unwashed masses alfredo Apr 2016 #50
I agree it will take a great upheaval. That's the plan, whether Bernie wins or loses. Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #53
I'm seventy one, in the middle Radiation and Chemo. I've walked the streets for justice. alfredo Apr 2016 #54
I would never question your dedication to social justice Jack Rabbit Apr 2016 #55
In Kentucky "whose side are you on" is fighting words. alfredo Apr 2016 #57
Of course those who .... reACTIONary Apr 2016 #56
Yes. alfredo Apr 2016 #58
I agree, let's not forget Debbie Wasserman's pal Ileana Ros-Lehtinen went down there flamingdem Apr 2016 #45
K&R Thanks Jack Rabbit senz Apr 2016 #40
every day billary convinces me hopemountain Apr 2016 #49
Hillary's role in the Honduras coup is just as bad as Nixon and Kissinger's sus453 Apr 2016 #52

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
3. So you're not denying the fact that she's an Oscar worthy liar.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:17 PM
Apr 2016

All you got is "You really should be ashamed of yourself....Pathetic" BS?

Ashamed for what exactly, showing you the fucking ugly truth?

Pathetic.

ish of the hammer

(444 posts)
20. I'm embarrassed for the supporters of Clinton.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:06 PM
Apr 2016

It's hard to defend the indefensible, isn't it. Berta Caceres says you're wrong.
oh wait, she's dead!

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
7. Sir/Madam, I think imperialism is pathetic
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:09 PM
Apr 2016

And I am ashamed to live in a country that habitually overthrows democratically elected governments in Latin America or the Middle East that pose less of a threat to us than our government and private industry poses to the welfare of their people.

If you think I am in error, don't call us names like pathetic. Show us why we are wrong.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
12. Apparently, you are a better expert on what I think than I am
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:24 PM
Apr 2016

Next time I have an opinion on any subject, I'll be sure to ask you first what it is.

asuhornets

(2,405 posts)
14. Well you and the rest of his supporters
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:30 PM
Apr 2016

won't be satisfied until Hillary wins this thing....Then what are you going to do?

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
17. What we will do if Bernie is elected
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:38 PM
Apr 2016

Agitate for the end of the neoliberal era and organize a long overdue campaign of civil disobedience and non-cooperation.

Do you see any reason why we shouldn't? Do you think it would not make the world a better place if it succeeds?

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
23. You understand that if he wins or loses, it is what we will do
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:25 PM
Apr 2016

Because neoliberalism has brought the US nothing but a widening income gap, lost jobs, NSA spying, political corruption, pointless wars and contracting democracy.

Thirty-six years of neoliberalism (Reaganomics, trickle-down or supply-side economics) is enough. It must come to an end.

pottedplant

(94 posts)
8. You should be ashamed of yourself
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:13 PM
Apr 2016

for not finding this reprehensible. How can you support this? She has blood all over her hands and for what? Protecting corporate interests. She continued our treacherous longstanding history of subverting social justice to Central America. Proud of that?

It's clear, Hillary doesn't give a whit about anyone but the worldwide elite. That's who she'll represent in our White House if she pulls this off. It will be a shit show with a grand facade.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
15. No, but she was Secretary of State
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:31 PM
Apr 2016

Did she have no authority ior power in that position?

Who do you think carried this out? President Obama. all by himself? The CIA director, exceeding his authority?

pottedplant

(94 posts)
16. straw man
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:33 PM
Apr 2016

Honduras is hers. She owns it. Watch the videos. She pushed for elections despite her own advisors recommendations to reinstate.

And I'm glad you find this so amusing. Enabling a military coup at the expense of a democratically elected president and ingratiating yourself to a murderous dictator is indefensible.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
2. I had just posted and older video of her lying about Bosnia.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:14 PM
Apr 2016

Lying liar still lies!

We all know she says what she needs to anytime for whatever reason but even her supporters turn a blind and willfully ignore the facts. Even when it's on video in easy to consume format.

Their willful ignorance is going to destroy the fucking country, all because they can't see past the female and look at the politician.

Must Have Woman Prrresssident no matter what. Who cares if she's lies better than a rug because she is telling the truth to me.

We're fucked.

SammyWinstonJack

(44,130 posts)
6. LIAR LIAR Pantsuit on FIRE...She's one self-serving individual.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:03 PM
Apr 2016

Yeah, she gets the nomination and we're fucked whether she wins the GE or not, and especially if she doesn't.

 

elmac

(4,642 posts)
18. Rough total of civilian deaths do to US invention since the Vietnam war
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:03 PM
Apr 2016

Central America, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya = 767,000

Vietnam= 2,000,000

I'm sure I missed a few countries but Coups, nation building, defending democracy, what ever we like to call it, this kind of intervention has serious consequences and needs to end.

 

RepubliCON-Watch

(559 posts)
26. But this is definitely a right-wing source.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:43 PM
Apr 2016

Just look at the name, Democarcy Now, how demanding of these people to want democracy right this very minute!

 

Fast Walker 52

(7,723 posts)
27. her interview was a classic example of washington-speak--
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:45 PM
Apr 2016

defending the indefensible and stretching the truth until it snaps.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
30. If she had anything to do with Alaric getting justice for his people from Rome . . .
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:59 PM
Apr 2016

. . . then she deserves a medal.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
39. Yes, you're absolutely right
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 11:57 PM
Apr 2016

If Hillary was acting on her own, he has to take responsibility for the overthrow of a democratically elected government because he didn't replace her immediately.

So one way or another, this was Mr. Obama's policy. Is that right?

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
42. No, I don't really agree with that. I followed those events very closely...
Thu Apr 14, 2016, 05:24 AM
Apr 2016

...in both corporate and alternative media. It took me a long time--a couple of years, actually, and not really until the Clinton email revelations--to conclude that the overthrow of Honduran democracy was Clinton's doing, not Obama's. I'm at the 99% point about this. I'm pretty sure of it.

The coup occurred in June 2009, only six months into Obama's term. His initial instinct about it was to say publicly that it was a "military coup" (which it was) and which would have trigged a required legal cutoff of U.S. funds to the coup regime. But after that Obama went silent. He was totally preoccupied, I think, with the global financial meltdown, inherited from the Bush junta, and two clusterfuck wars, inherited from the Bush junta. That would be enough to put ANY leader under water. I think he stopped worrying about Honduras and let his new Secretary of State handle it. I think he may have also required that President Mel Zelaya's life be protected and that there be an election as soon as possible. Then he went back to the THREE enormous problems that required all of his attention and then some.

Clinton continued funding the coup regime. And Clinton's emails reveal that she was dead set against the elected president of Honduras being restored to his rightful office. I do not think that Obama was privy to this Clinton intention. I may be wrong. I admit he's a hard man to read. But I think that this was the kind of thing that Clinton set up her private email server to DO, to keep Obama in the dark about certain things (for instance, her continuing to use Sydney Blumenthal as a consultant, when Obama had forbidden it).

Instead of doing what ALL of Latin America demanded at the time--restoration of Zelaya as president--she pressured the coup regime to hold an election. The trouble was that no reputable election monitoring group on earth would touch it. They all refused. Martial law had been declared. Leftists were being murdered. The conditions for an honest election did not exist. But she held an election anyway, with the U.S. State Department in charge of it. She used outfits like John McCain's International Republican Institute (he had telecommunications interests in Honduras) to pretend to be monitoring the election. The fascists won, of course.

And emboldened by Clinton's support, the rightwing death squad activity escalated, and is on going to this day--with the recent result (this March) of the murder of Berta Caceres, a well-known, indigenous, pro-democracy activist and environmentalist, winner of the Goldman Environmental Prize. She is only one of many who have been murdered, many of the victims being women, who have been notably visible as leaders of peaceful resistance. Gays have also been targeted. And many rapes and other acts of brutality have occurred.

Yes, "the buck stops there" at Obama. But I don't think he wanted it. I think he was distracted and not kept in the loop. I'm not an Obama apologist. I'd say it if I thought he was responsible. I don't think he was. Also, I don't think Clinton designed the coup. I think it was a Bush junta plan, perhaps intended as a 'time bomb' to undermine Obama's stated intention of improving U.S./Latin America relations (which were terrible under the Bush junta). Clinton took the opportunity to feather some nests for her allies and donors, and caused a very serious rift between LatAm leaders and Obama, which he has only recently addressed with his trip to Cuba and support for the Colombia/FARC peace talks.

I don't pretend to understand the insider politics of the Obama administration--why he would let something so terrible as the Honduran coup interfere with his stated goals, why he didn't fire her immediately and so forth. I simply don't know. Maybe he had constraints on him (CIA? Pentagon? Pentagon wanted to expand in Honduras--Zelaya was against it). Or maybe he just failed in a presidential duty, or was so ambivalent about it that Clinton felt free to take the initiative.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
46. How has that worked out?
Thu Apr 14, 2016, 02:20 PM
Apr 2016

How did that work out in Honduras? How about in Mrs. Clinton's misadventure in Libya? And, let's not forget her vote to invade Iraq.

In the latter two cases, Mrs. Clinton sided with a different principle, namely, where a strongman was deposed by force and the result was chaos, not stability. In the first case, a democratically elected leader was toppled and stability has proved illusive.

It would not appear that stability is preferred over ideology is the overarching principle here. I might suggest that the problem is that the overarching principle is an ideology called neoliberalism, a badly flawed ideology based on Ayn Rand's view of human nature, Milton Friedman's economic theories and PNAC's silly paper on rebuilding America's "defenses". That has been the bases of American public policy for three and a half decades, and all it's gotten us are debt, income inequality, a shrinking middle class and endless wars to maintain the profits of corporations whose main by-products are smog and greenhouse gases. That's not a formula for a sustainable economy, a healthy environment or world peace.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
48. What this leads to is not good for business or anything else
Thu Apr 14, 2016, 02:34 PM
Apr 2016

Business needs a marketplace full of buyers, which is to say a large and prosperous middle class. Under neoliberalism, the middle class is neither large nor prosperous. It has been steadily shrinking since the seventies. The only way business keeps propped up is by extending credit to more people, but that creates debt, not prosperity. In the short run, bankers make out like bandits. There's something at the end of the tunnel, but it's not a light; it's a dark abyss.

alfredo

(60,074 posts)
50. The neos are not interested with fate of the unwashed masses
Thu Apr 14, 2016, 06:59 PM
Apr 2016

They want a needy workforce they can exploit. The next quarter financials is all that matters.

To change this will take great upheaval, and that is something the vast majority pushed to the point where they have no option.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
53. I agree it will take a great upheaval. That's the plan, whether Bernie wins or loses.
Thu Apr 14, 2016, 08:34 PM
Apr 2016

Now may I ask a question: Which side are you on?

alfredo

(60,074 posts)
54. I'm seventy one, in the middle Radiation and Chemo. I've walked the streets for justice.
Thu Apr 14, 2016, 11:12 PM
Apr 2016

I have felt the burn of Teargas, and pain of a billy club. You ask me what side am I on. You don't know me, you don't know my struggles, and my sense of justice. I am a union man, and will be until the day I die.

If you find my answer insufficient, you can take a flying leap

I'm done here I am tired of answering questions from people that parrot right wing anti Hillary propaganda and come across as authoritarian.

I like both Bernie and Hillary, but I find the Bernie supporter rigid and see everything as black and white. That is turning me off Bernie.

I have never blocked anyone, you could be the first if you question my dedication to social justice.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
55. I would never question your dedication to social justice
Thu Apr 14, 2016, 11:43 PM
Apr 2016

I'm 64, on disability for depression. I did my service after the Vietnam war was over and dodged into the army to sit out a recession.

A friend of mine is going through chemo and radiation. She's 58 and was part of the movement that brought down Communism in Poland. I keep telling her she's got to hang around. We Yanks may be the next to need to know how to bring down a decaying, tyrannical system.

You hang around, too, please.

alfredo

(60,074 posts)
57. In Kentucky "whose side are you on" is fighting words.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:58 AM
Apr 2016

I am certainly not on the side of the goons.

I served in Army Intel 65 69. I joined and volunteered for Nam, but got sent to Africa.

If my body was not so arthritic and beaten down I'd be on the barracades. Social upheaval is for the young. It is their duty. I'm a 100% disabled old fart. I would be easy pickings for the cops.

People have to be ready for radical change, and as we see, Americans don't act until the wolf is at the door. It has to be of the educated middle class, and the landed gentry know that. Right now the fear of their mortgage is greater than the fear of an authoritarian state. Until that changes they will vote for stability and incremental change. That is why we got Obamacare instead of single payer.

reACTIONary

(5,770 posts)
56. Of course those who ....
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 06:25 AM
Apr 2016

.... don't actually have to live with it might over value instability. Since stability is good for business , so the thinking goes , it can't possibly be good for anything or anyone else.

flamingdem

(39,313 posts)
45. I agree, let's not forget Debbie Wasserman's pal Ileana Ros-Lehtinen went down there
Thu Apr 14, 2016, 11:26 AM
Apr 2016

with a pool of equally disgusting righties from congress.

This was payback to the right wing.

Hillary is fully responsible for those deaths that she so disgustingly denies matter when saying they "avoided violence".

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
40. K&R Thanks Jack Rabbit
Thu Apr 14, 2016, 12:47 AM
Apr 2016

I hope Bernie can head her off at the nomination. She is just so wrong for the position.

sus453

(164 posts)
52. Hillary's role in the Honduras coup is just as bad as Nixon and Kissinger's
Thu Apr 14, 2016, 07:40 PM
Apr 2016

role in the coup that overthrew Salvador Allende (a democratic socialist) and brought General Pinochet to power at the cost of thousands of lives. How can anyone defend this?

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