Video & Multimedia
Related: About this forumA Heated Debate on Sanders vs. Clinton with Two Longtime Progressives: Robert Scheer v. Torie Osborn
This is an incredible watch!
-------------
Robert Scheer v. Torie Osborn: A Heated Debate on Sanders vs. Clinton with Two Longtime Progressives
Published on Apr 15, 2016
http://democracynow.org - We host a debate on the 2016 election between two longtime progressives: Robert Scheer, a veteran journalist, and Torie Osborn, a progressive activist. Scheer worked for almost 30 years with the Los Angeles Times, where he interviewed several former U.S. presidents, including Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. Osborn has served as Northern California director for the National Organization for Women and was the first female executive director of the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center.
FULL TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS if you can't watch the Video:
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Im Amy Goodman in Los Angeles. Juan González is in New York. And our guests are here in Los Angeles. Were joined by Robert Scheer, longtime journalist based in California whos editor-in-chief of Truthdig. His most recent book, They Know Everything About You: How Data-Collecting Corporations and Snooping Government Agencies Are Destroying Democracy. And Torie Osborn joins us, longtime progressive activist based in Los Angeles. Shes served as Northern California director for the National Organization for Women and was the first female executive director of the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Its great to have you with us. Juan?
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Id like to start with Bob Scheer. Youve written a lot about our financial system and the banks, and, of course, this is a central issue between Hillary Clinton and Senator Sanders in this campaign. Your response to the controversy around Senator Sanderss stance and Hillary Clintons position on how to deal with the nations biggest banks?
ROBERT SCHEER: Well, I think Hillary Clinton was exposed last night as a serious demagogue on the banking issue. It was unbelievable to me. She knows. She raised the questionor she made the statement, "We can never let Wall Street wreck Main Street again." Well, who did it the first time? It was her husband, in alliance with Phil Gramm of the Republicans, who reversed Glass-Steagall and opened the door to the "too big to fail." It was her husband, by the way, who signed the bill into law, that she accuses Bernie Sanders of having somehow engineered. And that was the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which Bill Clinton and Lawrence Summers, his Treasury secretary, and Phil Gramm pushed through Congress. He did it as a lame-duck president. Its that legislation, tucked into an omnibus bill, so only four people in the House voted against it. Ron Paul was one of them, on the libertarian side. Yes, Bernie Sanders went along with this threat that if you dont vote for the omnibus bill, people dont get paid, and so forth and so on. It was Bill Clintons bill.
She has done this now repeatedly, blaming Bernie Sanders for the failure to regulate credit default swaps and collateralized debt obligationsall of this junk which was made legal by a bill pushed by Bill Clinton, signed into law by Bill Clinton, and, I believe, done to enhance her coming race for the Senate in New York, where she got an enormous amount of money from Wall Street. Bill Clintons first Treasury secretary, Robert Rubin, was at that point ensconced at CitibankCitigroup, a bank allowed to form because of the reversal of Glass-Steagall, a merger of investment and commercial banks. So, she knows whats been going on. And to blame Bernie SandersI covered this for the L.A. Times. I wrote a book on it called The Great American Stickup. I know the record very well. And shes simply lying about it.
AMY GOODMAN: Torie Osborn?
TORIE OSBORN: Well, Im not an expert on the economy, but I will tell you that Dodd-Frank is the law of the land. Hillary Clinton has been really clear. She stood up to Big Pharma back when Hillarycare was killed by Big Pharma and the insurance companies. Shes a fighter. She has positioned herself center-left. Shes going to be elected president of the United States. And I think the real issue is: How do we go forward? I like Paul Krugman. I agree with Paul Krugman, who is her economic guru. Shes definitely moved to the left from her husbands positions. Shes not going to put RichardRobert Rubin in as her Treasury secretary. I think that itll be fascinating to see how she incorporates the growing progressive economic equity part of the Democratic Party that Bernie has brilliantly organized and mobilized.
So, to me, whats most important is that Hillary isshes progressive. Shes a leader. She has a far better track record of actually getting things done than Bernie Sanders, who I knew very well in Vermont. Hes given the same speech now that he gave back in 1974. I lived there from '70 to 76 in my early days of antiwar and feminist activism and sort of formative days, when he was working the Liberty Union Party. And I'll tell you, I dont think hes changed. Now, economic inequality has grown. His message has become more relevant. Im glad hes raising it.
You know, to me, the most interesting thing about the debate last night, the most interesting thing, besides the Israeli-Palestinian issue, which I do want to say was astonishing and a thing of beauty, that he had the courage to say what he did. But it was that there was athat hethat we were fighting about $12 or $15-an-hour minimum wage. I mean, I worked at theon the county raising to $15 an hour. It was only two years ago here in Los Angeles that Mayor Garcetti put forward $13.25. It seemed radical at the time. Passed the baton over to the labor movement, the Fight for 15, you know, swept through, and now Californianow Jerry Brown has signed the law. Im telling you that whats important here is that were having a debate about $12 to $15 an hour, not whether Hillary believes, as many progressive economists do, that it might be too much of a burden on some rural and small business economies if you move too quickly to $15. So, you know, I think the issue of Wall Street, I think theresyou know, good progressives disagree. Is the shadow banking industry as important as breaking up the big banks? How do you break them up? What are the tools within Dodd-Frank? How can you make Dodd-Frank perhaps more progressive? Well, youve got to change Congress first.
AMY GOODMAN: I just wanted to clarify something, Torie Osborn. Had you ever been for Bernie Sanders or
TORIE OSBORN: I was magnetized. Now, I am notthe way it works for me in a campaign, it was true in 2008, I was for John Edwards, actually, because the poverty and the war were my issues. Then I was for Hillary, and then I was magnetized and became a strong Obama supporter. I quit my job in City Hall working for Mayor Villaraigosa and joined the Berniejoined the Obama campaign as a full-time super volunteer for two months. This time, Hillary declared last April, and I listened to every word of her. I was checking her out, and I was actually pleased to see she talked about Wall Street, she talked about Big Pharma, she talked about healthcare reform, she talked about universal healthcare, she talked about free tuition or making tuition more accessible. And I thought, "Wow, shes really hitting the economic issues." Bernie then entered the race, and I thought, "Well, Ive known him for many years. All my lefty friends are for him. Im going to be for Bernie." And there was less there than met the eye, for me. I have tremendous respect for the movement hes built, for the secular revival, the political social movement that hes built. And I have lots of questions about how that energy can be captured on a going-forward basis.
AMY GOODMAN: Bob Scheer, you disagree with Torie Osborn.
ROBERT SCHEER: Come on, lets look at what the Clintons represent: triangulation, ending the Roosevelt legacy in the party, reversing the
TORIE OSBORN: That was then. This is now.
ROBERT SCHEER: Reverseunderstand, that the
TORIE OSBORN: That was the 1990s. Were not in the 90s, Bob.
ROBERT SCHEER: But the policies that were in place
TORIE OSBORN: But the policies that Hillary Clinton is putting forward
ROBERT SCHEER: Are you going to allow me to finish?
TORIE OSBORN: is not the same.
ROBERT SCHEER: I know. I know. And look
TORIE OSBORN: Dont blame her for Bill Clinton.
ROBERT SCHEER: OK, you mentioned
TORIE OSBORN: Its not fair.
ROBERT SCHEER: you worked for Antonio Villaraigosa, a fellow I know well. You obviously work for Sheila Kuehl now, a supervisor. Theyre nice people. The fact is, it was Mayor Villaraigosa that ordered the police to smash the Occupy movement in Los Angeles. I was there that night. I was out in the street. It was barbaric. It was brutal. And yes, progressive mayors in every city, most of whom were DemocratI guess one in New York who claimed to be a Republicanand they smashed this movement. Its because of that movement, which addressed a problem that has accelerated since the Clintons came to officeyou could guess, Ronald Reagan was not able to put through the kind of radical deregulation he was speaking about. Bill Clinton did the triangulation. And that income gap in America, that Bernie Sanders was warning about, has mushroomed.
And let me just say something. You say you followed Hillary Clintons career. I interviewed Hillary Clinton. I interviewed her husband when I was working for the L.A. Times down in Arkansas. They championed the sloganboth of themchampioned the slogan, "Lets end welfare as we know it." And what they did is they ended the main federal anti-poverty program, the aid to families with dependent children. Seventy percent of the people on that program were children. Seventy percent were children. They claimed they had a program in Arkansas called Project Success that was helping people get off of that. It was a nonsense program. It never happened. It never worked. OK? Peter Edelmanshe always says, "I work with the Childrens Defense Fund, Marian Wright Edelman." Peter Edelman was in the Clinton administration. He broke over this question of so-called welfare reform. Hes written a devastating book. Robert Reich was the secretary of labor in the Clinton administration. He is supporting Bernie Sanders. Why? Because he saw the inside of Clinton triangulation. On domestic policy, its been a total caving in to Wall Street. And this income disparity, which Bernie Sanders was warning about, you say, back in the '70s, has become an uglier reality now. And you're saying we should trust the very people who opened the door to Wall Street to now solve the problem. I think its utter nonsense.
And let me say something about Israel, as a Jewish person, by the way. I am so proud that the first Jewish candidate that has a chance of being president has unmasked this terrible policy of ignoring the human rights of Palestinians, their aspiration, and backing Netanyahu, a guy who just doesnt even believe, in any serious way, in the two-state solution. And by the way, Hillary mentioned Mohamed Morsi, a graduate of the University of Southern California. He got his doctorate there. And she said, "I talked to him." Why doesnt she mention that hes in jail facing death? The first elected person to run Egypt is in jail facing death, and that Hillary Clinton was part of an administration, and after this administration, she has supported an accommodation with the military rulers of Egypt that have totally reversed that Democratic experiment. So, this is utter nonsense. The woman is a Margaret Thatcher hawk on foreign policy.
She carries water for Wall Street. You talk about the shadow economy. My god, her sun was set in business with a hedge fund by Lloyd Blankfein from Goldman Sachs. You know, and, by the way, her top financial adviser, Gary Gensler, was a Goldman Sachs partner, went into thewas in the Clinton administration, was part of this whole deregulation of Wall Street. Hes calling the shots in her campaign on the economy.
TORIE OSBORN: Well
ROBERT SCHEER: And she still turns to those very same people. So you cant whitewash that record. Its real.
TORIE OSBORN: I dontI agree.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I want toif I can, Id like to ask both Bob Scheer and Torie Osborn about this whole issueits true, I completely agree, that a political leader can change and can adopt more progressive or less progressive positions over time. But Im wondering how much of the change in viewpoint of some of the centrist Democratsand I would classify both Governor Cuomo right here in New York and Hillary Clinton in that camp of formerly centrist Democratshave been affected by this enormous grassroots movement that has developed, from the DREAMers to the Fight for 15, to the Occupy movement, to the climatethe movement around climate changethese massive movements all around the country. How much of these centrist leaders have changed their positions in order to remain relevant to the changing nature of political thought among the masses of American people?
TORIE OSBORN: Well, I agree with you, and I think the reason that Hillary Clinton positioned herself center-leftand, by the way, you govern from the center-left. You do not govern from the left, as Bernies marginal status in Congress for 30 years shows. I mean, he has done nothing. He did nothing before he was elected mayor of Burlington, and he has done very, very little. Seventeen amendments and two Post Office bills is not a track record that is substantive in Congress. But I agree with you, and I completely agree with you. And this is why I think rather than railing at the past, at the Clintons of the past, who carried the water for the right on criminal justice and on welfare reformI completely agree with itand set in motion a piece of what the right wing, starting, you know, in the '60s and coming to fruition in 1980 with Ronald Reagan and beyond, had continued to rig the system, to change the system, to, you know, not just mass incarceration and the, you know, racism and what we've seen in the growing prison-industrial complex, but, of course, the economic injusticebut heres where I completely agree with you.
When Hillary gave her speech a year ago, and that I wasI listened to every word. I was hanging on every word, because I wanted to believe that a woman could be president. I wantI would have rather it was Elizabeth Warren, frankly, but it wasnt. It was Hillary Clinton. And I wanted to see: Was she going to talk about issues that matter to me, as a 40-year progressive activist? And she did. And its because of the DREAMers, the DREAMers. Its because of the marriage equality struggle. Its because of Black Lives Matter. Its because ofand I dont know if I would agree with you characterizing them as mass movements, but I think that theyve been effective and powerful and important movements. And I think they have changed the debate, as Occupy changed the debate, and forever, on 1 percent and 99 percent. But thats really the question.
Guys, I mean, I hate to tell you, but Hillary Clinton is going to be the next president of the United States. Bernie Sanders, I think, has galvanized and unleashed young people. Hes not going to win. Hes not going to win New York, Pennsylvania or California. And so, the question really is: What happens next to those of us in the progressive movement?
AMY GOODMAN: Very quick comment from Robert Scheer, as we wrap up.
ROBERT SCHEER: Yeah, well, I think this is how we got into this mess. Jerry Brown, when he was running against Bill Clinton, said were always faced with theby these people with thenot the lesser of two evils, but the evil of two lessers. Thats a line Im taking from my wifes book on California thats coming out. But its a good statement. They helped get us into this mess. Lets not miss what this election is all about on the Republican and Democratic side. On the Republican side, you have a neofascist person in Trump, in the form of Trump, and something of a religious fanatic in Ted Cruz. But they are addressing real discontent across the board. The economy is not working for most Americans. OK? And so, theres a right-wing populist appeal that is wiping away the Republican Party. On the Democratic side, much to the amazement of everyone, Bernie Sanders has been able to register a populist progressive dissent. OK? He is a uniter. He doesnt bait immigrants. You know, he understands the need for unity in the country. But the fact of the matter is, if you go for Hillary Clinton, you go for more of the same. Ill tell you my takeaway from the debate
TORIE OSBORN: Shes going to win.
ROBERT SCHEER: I want to tell you, my
TORIE OSBORN: Facts.
ROBERT SCHEER: Yeah, but your winning
TORIE OSBORN: Get real.
ROBERT SCHEER: Yourget real. Your winning got us
TORIE OSBORN: The change happens
ROBERT SCHEER: Your winning gets us into a war in Iraq
TORIE OSBORN: No.
ROBERT SCHEER: which Democrats supported, with Republicans
TORIE OSBORN: Not if we do our work.
ROBERT SCHEER: that haswell, youif we do our work. The fact is, sellout politics have made the situation much more treacherous. And the reason
TORIE OSBORN: And marginal lefties cant govern.
ROBERT SCHEER: And the reason so many young people are against it is because they see it doesnt work for them. And if you want to look at the record, if Hillary Clintonthese problems, what is she doing? You talk about deportation, yes, Obama has
TORIE OSBORN: Shes not going to deport.
ROBERT SCHEER: failed on immigration. He has been called the deporter-in-chief.
TORIE OSBORN: Yes.
ROBERT SCHEER: Hillary Clinton, as secretary of state, she supported that policy. She didntno, take the minimum wage
TORIE OSBORN: The president set
ROBERT SCHEER: You keep telling me Hillary Clinton has evolved. The Clintons have been in power in the Democratic Party for so long. Why didnt they move on the minimum wage? Why didnt they move in a more peaceful area
TORIE OSBORN: Because, as you know, it takes a movement from below to push the issue forward.
ROBERT SCHEER: No, theyre not pushable. They are sellouts. They are co-opted. They
TORIE OSBORN: Thats not true. Shes clearly pushable.
ROBERT SCHEER: The record is so clear.
TORIE OSBORN: She supports $15 an hour.
ROBERT SCHEER: She supports it now because shes going to lose the primary if she doesnt come out for it.
TORIE OSBORN: No, thats not true. She
ROBERT SCHEER: And she supported it last night very halfheartedly. What you are talking
TORIE OSBORN: Thats not true. She stood up there with Governor Cuomo.
ROBERT SCHEER: Look, let me tell you, if you go down the road with Hillary Clinton
TORIE OSBORN: Dont rewrite the record.
ROBERT SCHEER: If you go down the road with Hillary Clinton, the right wing will be stronger. Thats what happened in Europe
TORIE OSBORN: No, thats not true.
ROBERT SCHEER: historically.
TORIE OSBORN: Its not the worse, the better.
ROBERT SCHEER: Its whats happening in Europe now. The fact of the matter is
TORIE OSBORN: No.
ROBERT SCHEER: if you do not address the problems from a progressive side, which Bernie Sanders is proposing, youre going to leave people hurting.
TORIE OSBORN: No.
ROBERT SCHEER: Theyre hurting in this country. You may not be hurting working for
TORIE OSBORN: No.
ROBERT SCHEER: the county and the supervisor, part of the Democratic establishment. I know. I live downtown.
TORIE OSBORN: Right, Im the Democratic establishment.
ROBERT SCHEER: It was the Democratic establishment.
TORIE OSBORN: Forty years of progressive activism, Bob. Come on.
ROBERT SCHEER: You work for the supervisor.
TORIE OSBORN: I work for the supervisor
ROBERT SCHEER: Yes.
TORIE OSBORN: whos a progressive supervisor, whos pushed more
ROBERT SCHEER: And the Democratic establishmentthe Democratic establishment in Los Angeles, by the way, has a racist
TORIE OSBORN: Bob.
ROBERT SCHEER: toleratedthe supervisors tolerated
TORIE OSBORN: Bob.
ROBERT SCHEER: a racist sheriffs department, a racist police department
TORIE OSBORN: Sheila was elected last year.
ROBERT SCHEER: crushed Occupy
TORIE OSBORN: Bob, that
ROBERT SCHEER: did not address any of these questions
TORIE OSBORN: Youre missingyoure missing the question.
ROBERT SCHEER: whatsoever.
TORIE OSBORN: The question
ROBERT SCHEER: And now you tell us we need more of the same.
TORIE OSBORN: The questionno.
ROBERT SCHEER: The voters are rejecting more of the same. Thats whats going on.
TORIE OSBORN: No, theyre not.
ROBERT SCHEER: Yes. You represent more of the same.
TORIE OSBORN: Hillary has gotten
ROBERT SCHEER: Thats what Hillary Clinton is.
TORIE OSBORN: two-and-a-half million more votes.
AMY GOODMAN: Were going to leave it there, but clearly there is a lot to talk about in these coming weeks and months. Robert Scheer, editor-in-chief of Truthdig; Torie Osborn, longtime progressive activist whos served as Northern California director for the National Organization for Women and was executive director of the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the Liberty Health Foundation.
----------
AMY GOODMAN: "On the Road Again," Willie Nelson, and thats just where we are, on the road again, on a 100-city tour. Check our website for where were headed next, here in Los Angeles, in Northern California, the Salt Lake City and Colorado. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. Im Amy Goodman in Los Angeles. Juan González is in New York.
The original content of this program is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License. Please attribute legal copies of this work to democracynow.org. Some of the work(s) that this program incorporates, however, may be separately licensed. For further information or additional permissions, contact us.
shakedown1970
(64 posts)She was rude as hell to Mr Scheer.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)and haven't heard anyone in the media talk about how the "Rules" for the debate (stated at the beginning) were broken by allowing Hillary to speak longer than Bernie and for him to be kept from replying or cut off in mid-sentence because she constantly went past her allowed time.
libodem
(19,288 posts)Who's counting extra stolen, presumptive nominee, minutes?