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'Such Bullsh t' Watch Bill Maher and Cornel West Explode Over Whether Hillary's as Bad as Trump
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/05/watch-hbos-bill-maher-gets-into-epic-shouting-match-with-cornel-west-over-hillary-versus-trump/
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mucifer
(23,545 posts)I was curious about his input.
Bill doesn't know how to moderate.
TomVilmer
(1,832 posts)... in the segment about exploration of Mars, jump to 15:30.
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)mucifer
(23,545 posts)RelativelyJones
(898 posts)
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Will we settle for what we can get?
Or will we demand what we can't have?
brush
(53,778 posts)so IMO the answer to your question is to bank what we can get and to keep working so we can have what we really want.
The repugs are not invincible. That party always goes too far with their smug cruelty towards people's actual needs.
We're watching the pendulum swing back now with what they settled for — a bumbling reality show in the White House.
LOL Lib
(1,462 posts)I personally have to believe that you have some underlying misogynistic problems that you are not willing to recognize and work on. Sorry Cornell West, but that is how I feel about you.
the clip started with a discussion of the shooting of black people with impunity by police around the country.
this has being going on for centuries. obama didn't stop it or even change it at all, nor did any president before him. there is no way clinton was going to change that. no way she would go up against the racist support of the police nationally. just like there's no way obama or clinton would go up against police and "justice" powers-that-be and pardon leonard peltier or mum abu jamel, political prisoners both. remember, it was bill c. who took the law and order baton from the repubs and ramped up the imprisonment of minorities. the only thing that will stop it is ongoing mass demonstrations nationwide. i would suggest that West would agree with that. relying on politicians of any stripe has gotten us nowhere.
clinton would not have had a progressive foreign policy, by any stretch of the imagination, another of West's points.
maher was right about one thing. pence (and in my view clinton) are "within the acceptable level of awful" we have come to accept.
one thing neither side pointed out is that trump is without principle. He doesn't care what bills gets passed as long as it is considered a success and it is taken as a sign of his power to "get things done." this means that pence, bannon, kushner, ryan, and mcconnell, etc. are the ones running the show anyway. trump is actually making it difficult for the repubs to get anything passed, via his criminality and diversions. getting rid of trump via impeachment could be a great boon to the repubs, led by pence.
LOL Lib
(1,462 posts)
JHan
(10,173 posts)step back and ask yourself how he could have done that...is he God? What are the impact of laws on the local level, state level and federal level.
Ask yourself how a President - given his or her limitations even though they are part of the executive branch - could have "stopped all shootings of black people"
The same reforms Eric Holder implemented, at the behest of Obama, is being rolled back by Sessions. If people cannot understand what needs to be changed to result in the outcomes they want, they say stuff like .. "so and so didn't stop it completely screw him" and end up with someone exactly like Sessions who will undo reforms at the DOJ that sought to hold miscreants in the justice system to account AND stop the victimization of the poor.
By poopooing on Obama, and shitting on his presidency, West helped create the toxicity which resulted in a Donald Trump being elected. The irony is Trump has done exactly what West wanted, sans the outcome West hoped for - Trump has destroyed the status quo and with it the priorities of the administration which preceded him- priorities like healthcare, strengthening environmental regulations ( so we don't create more Flints) and tackling criminal justice reform. Thanks Cornel.
tomp
(9,512 posts)...and from your tone i don's see any point in arguing with you. i assume it would be pointless.
however, the answer is...with courageous leadership.
JHan
(10,173 posts)"courageous leadership" - A President faces obstruction for 6 years, is derided as "Divisive" because he raises the subject of race when police shootings harm black innocents, tips Eric Holder to be his AG who proceeds to implement policy to hold law enforcement in states accountable and this is not "courageous" ?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)JHan
(10,173 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I'm constantly amazed by some arguments....
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Of hilarious stuff about how HRC was going to "bomb Russia" I knew people who fell for that shit too.
still_one
(92,190 posts)West is a delusional contrarian, and his animosity toward President Obama speaks volumes about West.
The only thing West, Stein, and some others have done is get the likes of George Bush and Donald Trump elected. President Obama provided the opportunity for health insurance for millions who could not get it before, signed a nuclear deal with Iran, which Hillary also supported, opened relations with Cuba, added major environmental protections, advanced civil rights, appointed sane SC justices, and a lot more, from the man who Cornell West despises.
but I will let those like Cornell West argue that Hillary was BAD, she wanted a 12 dollar minimum wage, while others wanted a 15 dollar minimum wage. Yeah, this purist bullshit worked out real well, like 7 minute abs:
JHan
(10,173 posts)LOL.
West etc love to talk about "revolutions". They've cheapened the meaning of the word. It's all supposed to happen overnight, but reformers understand it never happens that way and far more honest about the drudge of change. Self-described "revolutionaries" end up strengthening those they claim to be against. You'd think they'd wisen up to their epic failures time and time again but they persist
still_one
(92,190 posts)brush
(53,778 posts)
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)West needs to get over himself, Sanders wanted to hurt the DNC and he did, now if he wants to start his own party then he can try again, he failed before and he will not be successful again.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)The comment is uncalled for and totally wrong.
brush
(53,778 posts)Wish I had a dollar for each time he railed against the Democratic Party establishment — meaning of course, Hillary Clinton.
He and his surrogates like Sarandon, Dawson and that doctor who called Hillary a "corporate whore" undoubtedly caused some to vote 3rd, for trump or not to vote at all in the GE.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)Senator Sanders offered constructive criticism on the Dem policies and issues - not attacks.
And, I for one, do not want 'Democratic Party establishment leaders or their policy positions.
I prefer a more progressive stance on issues and progressive statespersons implementing them. This
is what I want for the Dem Party.
Finally, 'Sanders and his surrogates' did not 'cause' anybody to vote one way or another. It's always
up to the individual person. And, the 'keep up the campaign' - well, that is what great candidates do - they
don't quit until the very end.
brush
(53,778 posts)a still unhealed riff in the party. Behind closed doors is where those discussions should go on or start your own party if you don't agree with the Dem party.
Not rocket science.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)And no - the idea is to change/revert the Dem party back to their roots... A progressive party-of-the-people Democratic Party.
Behind close doors - Hell No.... we need to scream progressive polices from the roof tops (figuratively speaking).
brush
(53,778 posts)win is they don't attack their party publicly.
We need to get smarter. Or those that can't contain their public attacks against the Democratic Party, start their own or we keep losing to the publicly unified repugs and their repulsive candidates.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)There was a lot of bull-ony in the 2016 campaign - we are not suppose to 'talk' about the primaries. EOM on that...
You are absolutely correct about repubs - they are all followers of their (political) idol. No questions asked.
Dems, on the other hand, are thinkers and speak their minds. And I will repeat myself - there is a fight
as to the direction of the Dem Party, and that is ok.
They are not 'attacks' - they are constructive criticisms and a desire to persuade people to get behind
a true progressive FDR-like Dem platform.
brush
(53,778 posts)Airing dirty laundry publicly divides the party.
NOT FU_KING SMART.
We just saw what happened because of that in November.
Do we have to learn that lesson over and over and over?
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)...fight like hell to win the primary and then the election. Being in the same party is no different.
All candidates are in it to win it.
"dirty laundry' is just how the 'game' is played.
Thanks for the civil conversation - I appreciate it!
brush
(53,778 posts)not against your party.
We have to get smarter than that.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)I must be missing something.
brush
(53,778 posts)Not one of the seventeen repug candidates attacked their party.
They went after each other.
Again, not rocket science.
We have to get smarter.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)it well known he thinks he wants to be in control.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)No, Sanders is simply *one* of the leaders of progressive Democrats and progressive policies and issues.
Senator Sanders is a statesman - simply looking out for the 99%. It's an honorable thing to do.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)those claiming to follow him we would not have Trump for a president. He has been in Congress for thirty years, don't know when he is going to be a leader.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)People must realize that it is up to the candidate to win an election and I believe that Clinton did win the election but was stolen. It is disingenuous to 'blame' someone else for losing an election (once again, the exception is election fraud).
And, the universal truth is that the people are actually the drivers of change and that politicians run ahead of that parade and become leaders.
Warpy
(111,261 posts)that prevent him from seeing the bigger picture.
The bigger picture would have shown him that Rump and the current crop of Republicans are the biggest danger this country has ever faced. Yes, Clinton had all the flaws he mentioned. However, we had survived those in the past and would have survived them with her.
I'm not so sure this country will be intact by the time we get rid of the Rump.
LenaBaby61
(6,974 posts)"Clinton had all the flaws he mentioned."
He's lucky that no one's aired all of his flaws.
videohead5
(2,172 posts)When you can just step into the Oval Office and get it direct from the horses mouth.by the way no proof exist Hillary's server was ever hacked.the Rethugs are shameful.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)you're either intentionally looking to destroy our democracy, or your ONLY source of information is Fox News
Yavin4
(35,438 posts)If Bernie had been elected, West would have turned on him by now because Bernie would have to compromise in order to get anything done. Also, Bernie, at some point during his presidency, would have to use military force some where in the world.
Trial_By_Fire
(624 posts)I personally would love to predict the future....
Yavin4
(35,438 posts)and holding out one's vote in search of such perfection is the just the kind of folly that the right depends on to consolidate power.
brush
(53,778 posts)Which is how we got trump
latinaliberal
(102 posts)I was waiting fir bill to call west out when he began to complain about Trump. I stopped listening to west and tavis years ago.. Quite honestly, he is becoming a caricature of himself.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)earlier.
Although I am/was a Clinton supporter, West has a good point(s). I enjoyed the two going at each other.
West -- "Rule of law comes down hard on the poor, and the well-to-do get off, and police do too because they are protecting the rich (or something like that)." And, "who isn't better than Trump." I don't think West was backing Trump per se.
I have also been concerned about Pence becoming Prez, but I think they are right "Pence is better than Trump . . . . . . and he's well with in the parameters we've come to accept. . . . . . ."
Did not like West's criticism of Obama years ago, but I get where he is coming from.
There were some good points made in that exchange.
JHan
(10,173 posts)by his own actions he has helped create worse outcomes, not improved outcomes. That's on him which is why he is so defensive and why he'll maintain his anger not towards those who are mainly at fault, but those who try to do better in an imperfect system.
He and his ilk are toxic.
*edited for clarity.
rtracey
(2,062 posts)I totally cringe at Cornel West......I cant watch him, his this and that off-handed lectures and statements are demeaning and outlandish.
Chevy
(1,063 posts)and jump a very high bridge.
LenaBaby61
(6,974 posts)IF you only knew 
rtracey
(2,062 posts)ok so i'll bite, tell me...
LenaBaby61
(6,974 posts)For someone who continually talks negatively about Neo-Liberalism, and about Liberal elitism, he lives large and in charge himself just like the very elitists he criticizes.
rtracey
(2,062 posts)Ok, I totally agree....
Yavin4
(35,438 posts)While liberals like Mr. West hold their noses until they can find the one true liberal. Meanwhile Republicans consolidate power at every level of government.
The problem is that people like Mr. West work in the unrealistic world of big academia. A world that has a never ending stream of revenue that grows much faster than inflation and where he has protections from being fired. IOW, he works in an ideal work environment whereas most of us labor under economic vulnerability which is why we need protections like the ACA, no matter how imperfect.
JHan
(10,173 posts)He has become an annoying harpy.
BeyondGeography
(39,374 posts)Maher scored a TKO with health care. And even if you disagree with his basic point, Cornel's frustrations as expressed here are shared by many good people and he kept it respectful. Good discussion.
Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)It shows the divide that exists in the party. I don't see Hillary as the lesser of two evils but a lot of people still do. And as the first woman candidate, she had to live up to some unrealistic standards and it wasn't going to happen. She has her flaws but some of them were magnified out of proportion. The Democratic party needs to learn from the mess of 2016 and move forward.
LuvLoogie
(7,003 posts)He should run for President. Run his shit up the flagpole and see who salutes.
rock
(13,218 posts)And ride off in a lot more than four directions!
Quixote1818
(28,936 posts)
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)Exactly.
Without skipping a beat, he says Hillary hasn't accepted responsibility for her loss and insists Bernie lost because "they didn't give him a chance"-- with absolutely no sense of irony. Hillary has only herself to blame for losing, yet Bernie bears no responsibility for his loss. He doesn't even pretend to maintain common standards.
It takes a lot of fucking nerve for him to point fingers at Clinton. He worked to put Trump in office. That makes him complicit with what is happening now. He should worry about whether he himself, rather than Clinton, is better than Trump. That's an open question as far as I'm concerned.
The Republicans love the Wests and Sarandons of the world. They ensure the GOP, and now White Nationalists, maintain power. They won't learn the lesson from 2016 or 2000. Instead, they continue to push the country further to the right.
JHan
(10,173 posts)Trump's insults at Obama pale in comparison to what West have said over the years - and for that alone, I would despise West.
He and others like him sabotage the possibility of me getting the things I want, as you said "They ensure the GOP, and now White Nationalists, maintain power".
West is a bull in the china shop of "establishment" politics and centrism, kicking to destroy things he refuses to understand while wanting to destroy the reputations of those who put themselves on the line to try to make the system work. He gets paid handsomely to do his shit so it's all good.
It'll be a miracle if one day I wake up without contempt for him.