Terraforming Mars

[Quixote1818]

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[Scootaloo]

1. Neat video, but there's a few problems with the idea...

First... fixing our own planet should be top priority. No use having a spare if you don't know how to handle the original.

Second.. .theres' a reason Mars' atmosphere is so thin. Unlike earth, it does not have an active iron core; it thus has a weak magnetosphere. its atmosphere is thus under constant, unprotected assault from the sun, which degenerates and erodes it. The trick is finding a way to make and preserve an atmosphere.

Third... Where is all that water coming from? Yes, there's water on Mars, but it's pretty evident that it's far less water than earth. At just a few degrees lower global average, earth is basically a white ball; covered in ice (it's happened in the past; the so-called "Ice Ages" of the Pleistocene were balmy days, by comparison). mars is far below that temperature, and so far all we know of is substrate ice. THis ties back to the problem above; Water is an integral part of our atmosphere. Water is also very volatile. Most of Mars' water has been steady been beaten offworld into space these last few billion years.

Fourth... ecology. Okay, say we learned how to keep a planet running, we've managed to build and protect the atmosphere, and thanks to harnessed asteroid resources, Mars has water comparable to earth. Okay. What lives in that water? It's going to be at least a few centuries before all that toxic goop that washed off the surface into the new canals, canyons, and inland seas settles down, bonds, decays, or what have you. Until then, the waters of Mars are basically going to be the silty runoff from a smelter's parking lot. You could probably stock that with bacteria but, unless you know how to build a world that runs off sulfur dioxide, it might not be that helpful. Even if we surmount that (and not being a species famed for patience, I wouldn't bet on it) then we still have to figure out how to build entire ecosystems from scratch. it's not "plant a tree here and put some bunnies nearby," it's full-out recreating a system that has taken five billion years to develop and tune itself to Earth, and trying to shoehorn it into a foreign world in a matter of centuries or, god help us, decades. Depending on how degraded Earth is by that time (since every speck of life will likely have to be imported) this may actually be completely impossible.

Conceptually, it works great. In practice, operated by primates with large genitals who tend to top out at eighty years of age? It just won't happen.

[heaven05]

11. !!

Last edited Tue Oct 2, 2012, 11:23 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm glad we wouldn't be able to destroy another planet. One is enough for a greedy life form such as humans. What we have done to this planet is of our own making. It's the chickens coming home to roost scenario. Either drastic measures are taken to TRY to save this mess or the human species, without superhuman supranational or divine intervention, will be a thing of cosmic history. buh bye!

[kenfrequed]

15. hmm

I agree with the complexities and improbabilities of the terraforming scenario.

I also think that we need to try to determine a way to preserve life on this planet and curtail our greedy and stupid impulses.

But I disagree with the idea that we would be 'destroying another planet.' I disagree with that both in tone and in terms of data indicating there is no life on Mars. There is nothing there to destroy. I think terraforming mars would be a terrific idea that would take an absurd number of generations but I think human beings moving out into the stars would be a good thing.

[heaven05]

16. okay

you're entitled. My tone shall remain the same and I think humans moving into/out to space would be the worst thing to happen in all of eternity! Once the 'generations' have terra-formed mars, which of course is fantasy, but say we do accomplish terra-forming, 10-20 thousand years it would be just as polluted and on it's way to demise as our home planet. Don't need data, I have all the proof I need about human ability at managing worlds here. Everyday. Dream on.

[kenfrequed]

21. That doesn't make sense.

I understand fatalism. I really do. And I do think it is probable that we have caused lasting changes for the worse on this planet. We even have an extinction period named in honor of what we have managed (The holocene extinction period). We have done a terrible thing with the precious commodity of life on earth through our waste and greed.


I also understand the gravity, scale, and improbability of the task to try to terraform Mars. It really isn't probable in the foreseeable future. It could take thousands of years and we still have to account for the lack of a adequately powerful magnetosphere to protect the atmosphere from the solar winds.


But your reasons don't make any sense and they seem more based on some essential, almost religious, dislike of humanity more than anything.

Mars has no life to speak of. There is nothing there to screw up. The absolute worst it would be is a waste of time and resources and that is a good reason not to do it. Some essential idea that humanity is terrible and that our going out into space would be "...the worst thing to happen in all eternity" makes no bloody sense.

Again. There is no life on Mars. No life means no ecosystem save that which we might attempt to foist on it.


The space race geared up a few things that we are still using. It actually probably contributed a few images that reminded us all of how small the planet is. How we all live on a knives edge of the skin of a planet with a thin pile of gases floating over our heads. Some of the images from the voyagers shot back at earth and pointed out how tiny and insignificant a speck it is in a great huge universe. This reminded us that Humans are not the most important thing ever.


The pushing to space also helped catalize the quest for solar energy, for high energy efficient devices like LED's, and for resource recovery and pollution remediation.



I am sorry but if you want to see the real despoilers and wasters you should stop wasting yoru time assailing efforts at exploring space which has a long track record of enhancing life, reminding us of the world around us, and humbling us in the scope of the broader universe.

I would instead look to large industries and religious interests that denounce environmentalism, trumpet the excesses of greed, and attempt to have us waste resources chasing 'gods' that seem to be telling us that we can do whatever we want with this world.

[heaven05]

22. yeah

like I said you are entitled to be all warm and gushy about humans exploring our huge universe, I have nasa in my bookmarks. Yet, I did not just refer to mars, I also said ANY habitable planet would be destroyed eventually by the human race. There would be wars, if any two races went and settled this 'new' world, their would be racism and if there was a native life form there would be war eventually with eradication or at least dominance over that life form as the goal.. I make sense to me because I have the human race as the precedent setter. The human race has been at war with each other based on various and sundry reasons for many more years than at peace, with money, land acquisition and plain viciousness usually the culprit. Don't preach to me about human goodness in people seeing our little orb and finding all these warm gushy feelings about Mother Earth and the fragility of life. We HAVE NOT stopped the destruction of this little orb. The powers that be, big oil, corporations and greedy politicians have no stake in anything but profit and control over the masses and have proven time and again that they are too short sighted to care about the damage they do to this planet. Yeah, I am a cynic and not apologetic about it. You make sense, just not to me.

[kenfrequed]

23. sigh

I don't think you are a cynic. I think you are mistaken about a few things.

For starters this entire thread was about terraforming Mars. Not about invading Alpha Centauri or some farflung lifebearing star system that we could never actually make it to. So disabuse yourself of that self righteous perch pronto.

It is not the voice of reason or scientific inquiry or exploration that has failed us. It has been listening to the voice of greed, exploitation, the corporate model, and mindless religious drivel that has brought us to this point.

You talk about the absolute worst but you point your target EVERYWHERE and then blame the very best elements of humanity for the very thing that we seek to defend against.

Scratch a cynic and you find a frustrated, disappointed optimist. There is nothing optimistic about you.

[heaven05]

27. you

Last edited Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:05 AM - Edit history (1)

are right. far flung or not. We would destroy. No preaching, just stating truth as I see and have experienced. Pessimist? Disparager? misanthopic. I'm been called all of them. Not without reason. I believe what I do, as you do, so. But people like you may one day find a way to change the way humans do things....I mean it, good luck. I need a drink. from today 10-6-12, read about the ice caps and gush about that and the reason(s) why. and I take back my earlier statement about finding a way to do things differently for the better. Humans are destroyers. Period. In this age it's been because of greed and the concurrent viciousness.

[freshwest]

26. +1. But it's a nice diversion while all Earth's resources are stolen, though.

[kat22]

2. Fascinating.

Fascinating.

[MrScorpio]

3. There one very fatal flaw to this…

Unlike the Earth, Mars lacks the electromagnetic field that protects us from cosmic and solar radiation.

Unless there's a way to generate one artificially, anyone walking around on that planet without protection will not have a good time.

[TheMastersNemesis]

4. Just Big Enough To Send All The Republicans.

[Crow73]

7. Maybe

[Spitfire of ATJ]

5. Earth has undergone reversal of its magnetic field before....

....during the reversal there have been times it hasn't had a magnetic field.

It's happened when humans were around, just not since the invention of the compass.

IOW: The earth's magnetic field isn't really like a force field and open space isn't as toxic as some people think.

[Crow73]

6. 90%

Yes that is correct, yet 90% of the population is wiped out when it does. That would be part of the reason behind the whole church telling the extremely poor to keep breeding.

Also why is the sky blue in this video? Shouldn't it be a reddish brown until there is more blue water covering the surface than land?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

8. The sky is full of dust now, the rain would clear that up....

Also the air would get thicker as it filled with liquid water.

Also, there is no evidence of a mass extinction event associated with a magnetic reversal.

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Earth has been quite a flip flopper.

And we're overdue for another one.

[Confusious]

30. A couple of things

The cosmic and solar radiation would be weaker on mars. Square of the distance.

The earths magnetic field is pretty weak. You could probably generate one now with the tech available, and a generator. Build a mesh frame in front of mars at a Lagrange point, and generate a magnetic field.

A lot of radiation is stopped by the atmosphere. Thicken the atmosphere of mars, and problem solved. Of course, that part is easier said then done.

[drynberg]

9. LET'S SEE...

Any problems with this Mars Project?
1. This would cost $$$$$$
2. This would take maybe Millions of years or more
3. Mars Project would steal resources from saving our 4th rock from the sun.
4. We are at the very edge of loosing our planet forever, we don't have the luxury of wasting time, money, people, etc. on such projects, it's just not responsible, in my humble opinion.

However, it's a nice reprieve from reality, but sadly not even close to a solution.

[Quixote1818]

10. After so many billion years Earth will get too hot to live on

thats when we would need to start looking at Mars. It's a long, long, long, long time off.

[heaven05]

12. HA!!

keep dreaming. But doesn't take away from the the fact, you're entitled to dream.

[iamthebandfanman]

13. ??

yes, the earth will last forever and ever until the end of all time.
nothing can nor will ever happen to it. ever.

??

[heaven05]

14. okay

[Quixote1818]

17. Actually, once Earth gets too hot to live on and Mars is warming up

since humans have already seeded Mars with microbes by accident with the Rover and can seed it even more later with other plants and animals. We probably won't need to do much. The oceans will form and life will begin to spread. It will probably be in pretty good shape by the time humans need to leave in say 7 Billion years in the remote chance we are still around then.

[heaven05]

18. yep

very remote and at the rate we're burning up resources, literally, won't be that long.

[Quixote1818]

19. Here is more realistic short term project

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[kenfrequed]

24. These are fairly reasonable arguments

I would point out though that solar power would not have been as advanced had it not been for space exploration. Nor would LED lights exist. Pollution reclamation would also have been set back significantly.

The attempt at colonization and terraforming would teach us so much that it might be worth the effort.

Besides I don't think that we would be wasting that much more than we currently waste on Defense, Bank usury, advertising, mindless entertainment, propping up pollution based industries. etc.

I think that due to the existence of these actually wasteful and terrible influences we are provided with a magnified false choice fallacy. Honestly, not making the attempt is not going to garauntee our survival or prevent those forces that are destroying our planets life sustaining capacity.

Making the attempt prompts scientific inquiry and forces us to consider the world as an entire planet. It at least acknowldeges that "yes, we can alter the conditions of the planet" and goes much further than that.

[Confusious]

31. We're the 3rd planet from the sun

Why bother bringing materials from earth? The asteroid belt is closer. Mars probably has materials itself. Metals, etc.

We know it has iron. It's red.

[HopeHoops]

20. Cool video, but until we "terraform" our strip mines, I don't think we should fuck up another planet

[Confusious]

28. How would we "fuck up" a dead planet? nt

[HopeHoops]

32. Oh, if there's a way to do it, we'll find it.

[Confusious]

33. It's dead.

There's nothing we can do to make it worse.

[HopeHoops]

34. Dead, or dormant? Earth had long "dead" periods. Our propulsion methods are deficient.

[Confusious]

35. Seriously? So much wrong.

It has no magnetic field and a tenth of the atmosphere. It's surface is lashed by cosmic rays and ultra violet radiation, which destroys DNA.

It's dead.

There's not some "universe spirit" that will suddenly create life, or bring life, or raise life from the depths of mars.

If there's anything there (if anything), it's going to be single celled extremophiles, which ain't gonna be turning into a tree or grass anytime soon.

Pandora it ain't.

Earth hasen't had a "dead" period since life formed. And it formed because there was a magnetic field, an atmosphere and liquid water.

Mars is lacking in every one of those categories.

Our propulsion methods? You don't need much to sling shit around the solar system. Shit can be made on the moon and sent to mars.

[HopeHoops]

36. Well, the "no magnetic field" thing is significant, but Curiosity has pretty much proven water.

The first stone it touched was a stream stone. The atmosphere is a bit of an issue, but the composition of the current one is far more of one.

Do you remember the Star Trek (original TV series) where they encountered the mining beast that was based on silicon instead of carbon? Yes, it was "science fiction", but it's still well within the realm of reality. What kind of life forms are we sending to Mars? They aren't "carbon based" in their intelligence.

Life on Earth is just a small blip in the universe. Mars could have had its time, and may well again on its own. As the sun expands, the moons of Jupiter and Saturn may prove themselves. We're stuck in double-digit year thinking. Terraform efforts would take centuries to even take hold in an initial form. By then, we'll be lucky to have survived. If we ever make the transition to an altered world, as humans, we're doomed to repeat history.

Perhaps in the mean time, what's left of Earth will begin to rebuild in its own way, not ours.

[Confusious]

40. What kind of life forms are we sending to Mars?

You watched to much Disney. They ain't life.

Mars could have had its time, and may well again on its own. As the sun expands, the moons of Jupiter and Saturn may prove themselves.

Mars never had it's time, and will never have it's time. Evolution takes 1 billion years even to get started. By the time the sun expands, it won't have a billion years left in it.

as humans, we're doomed to repeat history.

Only if we don't look at history, and don't think it's a forgone conclusion, like you.

[HopeHoops]

42. More to the point, what kinds of life has Mars sent here? And not just mars, asteroids.

The universe (or solar system for that matter) is not a sterile environment. For all we know, the original building blocks are 10 B years old or more. That's nothing likely to be determined in our lifetimes.

And as for "doomed to repeat history", in the short time we've been here, we've done it many times over. We haven't seen the last.

[Confusious]

43. For all we know, the original building blocks are 10 B years old or more.

Creative speculation?

That's nothing likely to be determined in our lifetimes.

Nor ever to be determined, since they no longer exist. Whether it cam from a "comet" (asteroid rocky, comet water. Life likes water. Real life, not creative speculation life) is yet to be determined. Whether it came from mars will be decided in the next few years.

Like I said, creative speculation, akin to fantasy.

[HopeHoops]

44. More like 13, but hey, now we're just getting petty.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

25. Right- Because Messing with Two Eco Systems is So Much Better

Not.

[Confusious]

29. Ecosystem implies life

ec·o·sys·tem
   [ek-oh-sis-tuhm, ee-koh-] Show IPA
noun Ecology .
a system formed by the interaction of a community of organisms with their environment.

As of yet, no one has found life on mars.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

37. Watch the video.

.....before commenting.

[Confusious]

38. Yea... and? nothing new

We can't go to another star... yet, so you must be talking about mars.

Which again, ecosystem refers to life.

Ecosystem definition:

ec·o·sys·tem
    Show IPA
noun Ecology .
a system formed by the interaction of a community of organisms with their environment.

There is no life on mars, hence no ecosystem.

If you're looking at all those pictures of trees on mars, there ain't none. It's a dead world.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

39. Obviously

.....despite your claim to the contrary, you did not watch the fictional and speculative ecosystem created by man(woman)kind in the video.

Point is it's not nice to disagree with Mother Nature.....or me.

Of course it's a dead planet.....duh......open your mind to the possibility that man can fu*k it up.

[Confusious]

41. Well, you thought something

I was trying to figure out what.

Point is it's not nice to disagree with Mother Nature.....or me.

Mother nature only applies to earth. Very authoritarian of you.


It's dead, can't get more fucked up then that. There ain't no rock spirits to disturb, because they don't exist.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

45. So.....

...we are in agreement.....you never saw the video.

Disagree with me all you want, but be honest.

The fu&kin video shows there is no life on Mars.

What part of that do you not comprehend or view?

Nevermind....it's self apparent.

[Confusious]

46. I watched the video... Nothing new

It just repeats the plan I've heard for the past 10 years.( uh, actually longer. The mars trilogy was published in 1993)

I'm not really sure what you're objecting to.

You agree it's a dead world. What exactly is the problem?

You don't like transplanting trees? You hate the idea of space travel? You don't like intellectuals? You think the human race is a disease that shouldn't spread?

I'm guessing since you aren't explaining your reasoning very well, or at all.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

47. Huh?

You got all that from my post....who says you don't like science fiction!

[Confusious]

48. I said I was guessing

You're not explaining your reasoning for objecting.

You said "destroy two ecosystems."

An ecosystem requires life.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ecosystem
: the complex of a community of organisms and its environment functioning as an ecological unit

You agree that mars is dead.

So what is the problem?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

49. Confusious Says

...you like to argue.

You argue with me about man's ability to destroy two ecosystems.

You argue with yourself.

What's your problem?

[Confusious]

50. If you're misusing and misrepresenting

A scientific term, with nothing to back it up, yea, I do.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

51. Peace

You win and you need too.

LOL!