"We Need Restraint": Rep. Ro Khanna Cautions Against Sending U.S. "Lethal Aid" to Ukraine

[Uncle Joe]

[Ray Bruns]

1. I have never understood this. I don't see why we don't arm our allies

and let them defend themselves. It would decrease the need for US troops to be inserted into these situations.

When the wolf is knocking on the door is no time to be trying to buy a gun.

[Uncle Joe]

4. In some situations arming can backfire against the person or nation you wish to protect.

I believe a better way is to work in diminishing international stress and the real or perceived motivations for nations to invade one another.

Our arms merchants have been quite busy and profitable at least since the days of Eisenhower and yet we still had to use troops in Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iraq again, and countless other nations that I can't think of at the moment.

However that's changing, there will be more "sanitary" remote and/or roboticized killings, so American troops won't be used anyway.

[Ray Bruns]

7. To be honest

Grenada and Panama were US invasions of there countries. We didn't arm them.
We only supplied Iraq with intelligence during the Iran and Iraq war. Most of their arsenal came from Russia.
Vietnam and Afghanistan is where we agree.

[Uncle Joe]

11. The point I was trying to make is that arm sales

to our allies and other nations around the world have done nothing to diminish or eliminate war and the need; real or imagined for U.S. troops to fight in other nations.

The United States remains the largest arms exporter, increasing its global share of arms exports from 32 to 37 per cent between 2011–15 and 2016–20. The USA supplied major arms to 96 states in 2016–20, far more than any other supplier. Almost half (47 per cent) of US arms transfers went to the Middle East.Mar 15, 2021

https://reliefweb.int/report/world/trends-international-arms-transfers-2020#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20remains%20the,went%20to%20the%20Middle%20East.

Trends in International Arms Transfers, 2020 - World | ReliefWeb

Is there any nation on the planet more authoritarian than Saudi Arabia and yet we have no qualms with sending them arms as Yemen is destroyed.

[NCjack]

2. The senior members of the Ukrainian government and military will be

fighting for their lives. If Russia wins, those Ukrainians die. Send them as much they ask for.

[Uncle Joe]

5. I agree if Russia invades all of Ukraine.

If we send it before, I believe we're just pouring gasoline on the fire.

[George II]

9. "All of Ukraine"? It's only about the size of Texas, not huge and almost half the population...

...is within 100 miles of the Russian border.

[George II]

3. Sure, lets just let Russia overrun Ukraine and exterminate hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.....

Why are so many in congress seemingly siding with Russia?

[Ray Bruns]

6. Check the signature line on their paychecks.

[NurseJackie]

13. Which elected officials have received campaign money from Russia...

... or from those aligned with Russia? Which ones have received the benefit of ads paid for by orgs that are affiliated with Russia, or that have known ties to Russia?

Now, compare that list with the politicians and elected officials who are trying to derail Biden's agenda; or who are openly supporting/repeating Russian talking points; or who are trying to sabotage and weaken Biden's support within the US as well as internationally.

Patterns will emerge, I predict.

[George II]

16. One only need go through the votes for sanctions or other Russia centered legislation....

... over the last few years to see who might be "biased" in favor of Russia.

It's startling.

[NurseJackie]

18. You're right. I recall that there have been at least one (maybe more) elected officials...

You're right. I recall that there have been at least one (maybe more) elected officials who have consistently voted to protect Russian interests at the expense of US interests and in direct conflict with US policy.

[paleotn]

26. Good question. On the Russian payroll?

[llashram]

8. yeah Putin will attack with rockets

and Ukrainians will only have firecrackers. Restraint. RIGHT?

[marie999]

10. Russia and Belarus have been having join air force drills,

Russia TU-22M3 nuclear-capable bombers and Belarus fighters. Now Belarus is thinking about allowing Russian nuclear missiles.

[George II]

15. From a map of the area, it looks like Ukraine's land border between either Belarus or....

...Russia is about 2/3 of their total border. They're literally surrounded by those two countries.

[NurseJackie]

12. Shut up, Ro!

[Uncle Joe]

14. Why do you hate the First Amendment?

[NurseJackie]

17. That makes absolutely ZERO sense, Uncle Joe. WTF does the "First Amendment" have to do with my post?

Why do you hate the First Amendment?

That makes absolutely ZERO sense, Uncle Joe. WTF does the "First Amendment" have to do with my post? Why would you assume that I "hate" anything? That's just beyond ridiculous.

You do realize that the First Amendment protects people from THE GOVERNMENT... not from me, right? You knew that, right?

I'll assume so... and that's why I'm compelled to repeat my question: WTF does the "First Amendment" have to do with my post? How does it even apply?

[Uncle Joe]

21. Freedom of speech is universal and the government is also "We the People"

The First Amendment protects everyone whether in the government or not, it's more restricted in the military because they operate under the UCMJ; Uniform Code of Military Justice and they're not a democracy.

I never said you violated the First Amendment because you are not the government but I figure you must not care for it much because that's was the only response you could muster to sound advice from a Democratic Representative of the people just because you didn't like the message.

"We Need Restraint": Rep. Ro Khanna Cautions Against Sending U.S. "Lethal Aid" to Ukraine

There was no substance to your post other than "shut up."

[NurseJackie]

22. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

but I figure you must not care for it much because that's was the only response you could muster to sound advice from a Democratic Representative of the people just because you didn't like the message.

Is that what you "figure" ... seriously?

I'm reading words that a strung-together in a sentence, but what those words are saying make absolutely no sense. That "explanation" still doesn't follow any sort of logical connection to my reaction.

Although I've specifically asked HOW you've arrived as such a laughable conclusion, I have yet to read how the hell any of that has anything to do with the First Amendment.

There was no substance to your post other than "shut up."

Yeah? And? So, what? That's all that needed to be said. That was the entirety of my response to him. --- That STILL doesn't have anything to do with the First Amendment. Nor does it explain why you'd accuse me of "hating" the First Amendment.

Here... maybe this will help.

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws which regulate an establishment of religion, or that would prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the freedom of assembly, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances.

[Uncle Joe]

23. Yes that's what I figure, seriously.

Last edited Thu Feb 10, 2022, 08:17 PM - Edit history (1)

You told a Democratic Representative to shut up when he spoke of potential life and death decisions regarding arms sales to a non-NATO member on Russia's border that could potentially trigger a major war.

Furthermore you seem to be implying upthread that Russia is possibly funding Democratic Congress people because they believe we should be cautious about arming a Non-NATO member that could provoke major war if not WW3.

That's the kind of mentality that took hold of our nation during the Joseph McCarthy era, too many people were told to shut up about what they believed or were automatically condemned for their political beliefs.

Again I never said you violated the first Amendment, because you're not the government, I just don't believe you care much for it unless they agree with you.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

[NurseJackie]

24. OMG... that's just too funny!

You told a Democratic Representative to shut up

Yes. Yes I did. And now you're telling me that what I said offends you to such a level that you think I ought not be able to say such a thing out loud? (Now who "hates the First Amendment", huh?) See how that works? Silly, isn't it?

Again I never said you violated the first Amendment, because you're not the government, I just don't believe you care much for it unless they agree with you.

The two things don't follow. There's no correlation.

How is it that any rational person could conclude that because I criticize and disagree with a politician, that somehow translates into my "hating the First Amendment"??

Obviously you've got it all figured out in your head, it makes sense to you (otherwise you wouldn't have accused me of such a thing, right?) So I'm just hoping that you can do a better job of explaining how you arrive at that particular conclusion. Please enlighten us all.

Furthermore you seem to be implying upthread that Russia is possibly funding Democratic Congress people

I never said that. I said "politicians" and "elected representatives". No political party was mentioned.

That's that the kind mentality that took hold of our nation during the Joseph McCarthy era, too many people were told to shut up about what they believed or were automatically condemned for their political beliefs.

Yeah... you mean like when someone is making baseless ACCUSATIONS about me... such as HATING THE FIRST AMENDMENT?? (because of my political beliefs and because I disagree with a politician)???


Oh, the irony! Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!

What will the next insult, accusation and retort be? I wouldn't be surprised if it's something like the old "America: Love it or LEAVE IT!" (That's always good for a few laughs.)

[George II]

29. Imagine being accused of "hate" here on Democratic Underground. I'm going to use that....

....the next time my wife is watching television, I start talking over it, and she tells me to shut up.

[NurseJackie]

30. What's hysterical (and sad) is that I simply posted my reaction on an INTERNET FORUM...

What's hysterical (and sad) is that I simply posted my reaction on an INTERNET FORUM. I said "Shut up, Ro!" in response to something HE ALREADY SAID.

I had not silence anyone I had not interrupted anyone. Yet the insinuations and insults that I belong in the McCarthy era, and other accusations of my "hating" the First Amendment are flying left and right.

Generally speaking (here and elsewhere) I've often noticed that internet bullies tend to not stick around too long when they must explain or defend their absurd and indefensible arguments, or when the name-calling is noticed. Abandoning a thread or self-deleting is something that I've frequently observed.

What happens next remains to be seen. (I think I'm owed an apology at the very least.)

[Uncle Joe]

31. That whole sub-thread is trashing Congress people but the only people named

in this video as urging caution and restraint other than Ro Khanna are Bernie Sanders, Barbara Lee and Pramila Jayapal all Democrats and an Independent caucusing with the Democratic Party.

President Biden even urged restraint last night but your focus is on linking anyone urging restraint as being paid off by Russia.

So, no I don't believe I owe you an apology,

[NurseJackie]

32. I haven't insulted YOU. I haven't accused YOU of being un-American...

So, no I don't believe I owe you an apology,

Yes you do. I haven't insulted YOU. I haven't accused YOU of being un-American... I haven't insinuated that YOU are like McCarthy! So what exactly makes you feel as though you're entitled to do that to me? Why are you getting personal with me?

That whole sub-thread is trashing Congress people but the only people named in this video as urging caution and restraint other than Ro Khanna are Bernie Sanders, Barbara Lee and Pramila Jayapal all Democrats and an Independent caucusing with the Democratic Party.

Ridiculous.

President Biden even urged restraint last night but your focus is on linking anyone urging restraint as being paid off by Russia.

I did no such thing.

[lapucelle]

33. The utterance "shut up" is protected speech.

Whether or not there is substance to that statement is a matter of opinion. Regardless, it is protected speech.

Moreover, it's mistaken to assume (out of hand) that a statement like this lacks substance. And I don't recall anyone accusing Joe Biden of "hating the first amendment".

[George II]

34. What's ironic is in the course of sticking up for the First Amendment....

....one is doing exactly the same thing, although not as explicitly - i.e., telling someone to "Shut up".

[Uncle Joe]

35. So were my posts. n/t

[lapucelle]

36. No one said they weren't. And no one accused you of hating the first amendment. N/T

[Uncle Joe]

37. Likewise, I asked a question based on the evidence on this thread. n/t

[lapucelle]

38. What "evidence" is there that someone "hates the first amendment"?

Are you claiming that asking someone, "Why do you hate X ?" is not an implicit assertion that someone hates X?

Are all instances of telling someone to shut up evidence of "hating the first amendment"?



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Sanders Tells Disruptive Members of Town Hall Meeting Crowd to "Shut Up!"

Interrupted repeatedly at a town hall meeting last weekend, an irate Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) yelled at disruptive audience members: "Shut up!"

The meeting, at Cabot's Willey Building Auditorium on Saturday, grew so heated that Sanders' outreach director, Phil Fiermonte, called the cops, according to Vermont State Police spokeswoman Stephanie Dasaro. Four troopers arrived partway through the event, but took no action.

snip=======================================================================

"I don't want to be interrupted," he says. "A question was asked. It's a fair question. And I'm trying to—"

After several more interruptions, most vocally from a large bearded man in the third row, Sanders loses his cool.

"Excuse me," he snaps. "Shut up! You don't have the microphone. You've asked— You know, I don't want police officers here."

https://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2014/08/20/sanders-tells-disruptive-members-of-town-hall-meeting-crowd-to-shut-up

[Uncle Joe]

39. As I stated, it wasn't just that one post in a vacuum but the sub-thread especially as applied

to this OP video on the critical issue of war, peace, life and death.

Peace to you

[NurseJackie]

41. No. WRONG! Actually, there was no "subthread" at that point.

it wasn't just that one post in a vacuum but the sub-thread especially as applied

No. WRONG! Actually, there was no "subthread" at that point. Anyone can clearly see that the ugly comment directed at me was the START of the subthread, not the result of it.

Right off the bat, for no reason at all, I was accused of hating the First Amendment after just ONE post. No complicated "subthread" bullshit excuse is going to hide that. I was attacked and smeared for no reason. The insinuation was clearly that I was "unamerican" or "unpatriotic".

[Uncle Joe]

42. Posts 3-26 is the sub-thread, specifically your posts 12 & 13,

Last edited Sat Feb 12, 2022, 03:11 PM - Edit history (2)

my post was 14

Edit to add post 26 as part of the sub-thread.

[NurseJackie]

43. How amusing. Nice try.

[George II]

40. I remember seeing that, along with the video of him chiding a parent to keep her baby quiet, too.

[George II]

44. Complaining about a post and accusing one of "hating" the First Amendment can be seen as....

....essentially doing the same thing you're attributing to that other person.

[mcar]

19. What are you talking about?

[George II]

20. Eerily reminiscent of the comeback when people spoke against the war in Iraq:

"Why do you hate America?"

[NurseJackie]

25. Remember this sticker?

Last edited Sat Feb 12, 2022, 10:32 AM - Edit history (1)

I recall seeing it everywhere. Window stickers. Bumper stickers. Helmet stickers. Jacket patches. Graffiti. Tattoos.

These idiotic accusations that I "hate" the constitution or the First Amendment are just as offensive.

[George II]

27. Tempted to tease you, as earlier, "is that a rightwing talking point"!!!

[paleotn]

28. No, we don't.

Work on a diplomatic settlement, but also keep your powder dry. Arm the Ukrainians to the teeth.