I encourage everyone, especially those advocating we implement a no-fly zone, to listen to this:

[JohnSJ]

https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/lawrence-u-s-has-no-good-choices-dealing-with-russian-aggression-134644293874

[cilla4progress]

1. What are the options?

How do we stop this genocide?

If Putin is suicidal, then he holds all the cards.

[JohnSJ]

2. First of all, as bad as this is, this isn't a genocide. Second, we are in the process of destroying

the entire Russian economy, and have been supplying major weapons to Ukraine to defend itself.

That is what we are doing

[cilla4progress]

3. Meantime

Hospitals are bombed and children and old people die.

Also:

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
"a campaign of genocide"

I guess we can quibble about "large".

[JohnSJ]

5. This is the definition from the United Nations Genocide Convention

Article Two of the convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":

Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
The convention also imposes a general duty on states that are signatories to "prevent and to punish" genocide.

That being said, there is strong evidence of war crimes going on in Ukraine

[cilla4progress]

8. Yes, we witness and agree on what we are seeing there.

No matter what it's called.

💟

[avebury]

4. So in other words we agree to be held hostage by a mad man.

You can sanction Putin, the Oligarchs and Russia incessantly, however if Putin decides to push the button there is nothing to prevent him from doing so, unless his own people take him out.

Whatever takes place, it needs to by while President Bidden is in office and the Democrats control Congress. Should the Democrats lose any control in Washington it will be a new ballgame from Putin as we cannot trust the Republicans.

[Chainfire]

6. We can go back to some ancient wisdom in this case

Sun Tzu told us that "War is only justifiable when all possible alternatives have been completely exhausted." We have not exhausted our options.

The only war that is ever "won" is one where you defeat the enemy without firing a shot. Putin will most likely end up occupying Ukraine, but he will never "win" because to do that he would have to kill every living Ukrainian. What we will have to do is, after armies have quit exchanging blows, is make sure that the Russians continue to suffer economically for as long as it takes. It will be very difficult, because it will be against the interests of the monied people in the US, who will want to go back to making a buck in Russia. That would be when Russia could legitimately claim victory.

In our country today, when money is placed on the scales with justice, money always tips the balance. We need to work on that.

[avebury]

7. The problem is that he will then pick the next country to invade, and then

the next country. Yes Ukraine will be expensive for him but he does not care as long as he can force former Soviet countries back into the fold as he becomes the western version of N. Korea.

[Chainfire]

10. And, I agree with you.

We always have the option of going to war with Russia. A large scale war in Europe can't be limited to "conventional" weapons. lets don't rush the end of the world.

We face a similar situation in Eastern Europe today that we faced at the beginning of WWII. The Germans attacked our ally, Poland, and there was no practical response available to us, so we transitioned into what was know as the "Sitzkrieg." England and France were technically at war with Germany, but the interactions were few and far between; the French Air Force was dropping leaflets instead of bombs. There was just no practical way of saving Poland, geography was our enemy then, and it is our enemy today.

Hitler went on to make the fatal mistake of expanding the war, in doing so, he signed his own death warrant. We need to try to defeat Putin without bombs and bullets, there is no reason for us to play "his" game. Putin will fall from the inside without us burning down the world in the process. The free world is putting serious pressure on the Russian economy. Putin shares power with the Oligarchs, there will come a time when he is seen as a liability, not an asset. Patience is important because the road to nuclear war is one way.

[cilla4progress]

9. A Russian businessman put a bounty on Putin.

Wonder the chances of success.

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-businessman-puts-1-million-bounty-on-putins-head


Russian businessman Alex Konanykhin has put a $1 million bounty on Vladimir Putin's head.
He has called on Russian military officers to go after Putin and arrest him as a war criminal.
Konanykhin said he was putting up the bounty to "facilitate the denazification of Russia."

A Russian investor has put a $1 million bounty on Russian President Vladimir Putin's head, asking for Russian military officers to arrest Putin as a war criminal.

"I promise to pay $1,000,000 to the officer(s) who, complying with their constitutional duty, arrest(s) Putin as a war criminal under Russian and international laws," said crypto investor and California-based businessman Alex Konanykhin in a Facebook post on Wednesday.

Konanykhin claimed that Putin had violated the Russian constitution by "eliminating free elections" and "murdering his opponents."

"As an ethnic Russian and a Russia citizen, I see it as my moral duty to facilitate the denazification of Russia. I will continue my assistance to Ukraine in its heroic efforts to withstand the onslaught of Putin's Orda," Konanykhin said, using the Russian word for "horde."


Konanykhin told Insider that he had put up the bounty — which will come from his own funds — to show that the military assault on Ukraine is not being conducted in his name.

"If enough other people make similar statements, it may increase the chances of Putin getting arrested and brought to justice," he added.

Konanykhin said he has not visited Russia since 1992. When asked about whether he feared reprisal from Putin, the businessman said: "Putin is known to murder his opponents. He has millions of them now."

According to Vice, Konanykhin was at one point worth $300 million. He is now a member of the "Circle of Money" on the television series "Unicorn Hunters," along with Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak and former 'NSync singer Lance Bass.


Konanykhin was granted political asylum in the US in 1999 but ran the risk of being deported when his status was revoked four years later. His asylum status was reinstated in 2007.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine has prompted a backlash from Russian oligarchs and lawmakers. In a rare moment of dissent, three Russian lawmakers also spoke out this week about Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

[wackadoo wabbit]

11. Neville Chamberlain would have loved Lawrence /nt