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Related: Culture Forums, Support ForumsMore adventures in the French language
Last edited Wed Sep 11, 2019, 03:32 PM - Edit history (1)
So, my vocabulary is getting better, and my grammar is almost becoming conversational. But some things are still difficult.
As an example, I walked in today to the lobby of my apartment building while the daughter of the tenant on the 1st floor (Americans: that's what we would call the "2nd floor" ) was trying to convince her to walk up the stairs.
Daughter: "Non! Non! C'est très injuste! Je n'escaladerais pas! Je n'escaladerais pas!"
(No! No! It's so unfair! I won't climb!)
Mother: "Tu escaladeras"
(You will climb)
Daughter: "Non! Non!"
(No! No!)
(Daughter sees me and my dog; her eyes get roughly as big as saucers)
Daughter: "Le chien! Le chien!!!!!"
(The dog! The dog!)
(Daughter scrambles upstairs at roughly MACH 4)
Me, scrambling to think of the right French: "Elle escalada"
("She climbed", but see below)
Mother (holds her composure for a second, and then absolutely loses it).
I had ended up using the passé simple, which is apparently like saying "thy daughter, madam, hath ascended". It's about 400 years out of date.
Anyways. One more thing I learned today.
Apollo Zeus
(251 posts)I went to Montreal and was totally confused.
Their French got cut off from the rest of France when the British won the war for Canada in the 18th century.
About 40 years ago, there was an entry from Québec in the Cannes film festival in France. The French people previewing it ordered subtitles--in French!! The Canadians went ballistic, saying their film was already in French, so no French subtitles were necessary. The French calmly replied that the Canadians could call the film's language whatever they wanted, but they couldn't understand the dialogue, so they needed subtitles.
One time I was on a plane from Havana to Montréal, and the people sitting next to me were from Québec. I heard them speaking French, so I spoke my Parisian French to them. When they heard me, the first thing the told me was that they would understand everything I said, and I would understand nothing of what they said. It wasn't quite that bad, but not far off the mark, either.
Apollo Zeus
(251 posts)the Catholic church ran everything in Quebec until la Revolution Tranquille (~1960). So the Old French that Bibles were written in was upheld as proper.
DFW
(54,302 posts)My Quebec friends are not all too bible-conscious, at any rate. I think it was just the geographical isolation. It does weird things to languages. Look at what happened to vernacular Latin when Dacia and Scuol got separated from the rest of the Latin-speaking world. Native speakers of Spanish, Catalan and Italian (and, to a lesser extent, French and Portuguese) can somehow manage to get a basic message across when in one of the other countries. However, Romanian and Romansch remain pretty much unintelligible to the rest of the Latin world. When the Arabs invaded central and southern Spain and stayed for 700 years, it had a profound influence on the Latin spoken there. That is why Catalan is only spoken in the extreme east, where there was little to no Arab influence.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,615 posts)Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are all more or less mutually intelligible because they developed out of Old Norse due to influences from other languages; Icelandic, due to Iceland sitting there all by itself in the North Sea, not so much.
DFW
(54,302 posts)By the way, although Swedes and Norwegians can read Danish with little difficulty, the moment they open their mouths, Danes sound like they are speaking Swedish or Norwegian in the immediate aftermath of a severe stroke that occurred while they had a mouthful of mashed potatoes.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,615 posts)partly because most of them are really good, and also to help me learn Norwegian. I noticed that I could actually understand spoken Swedish more easily than Norwegian because Swedes speak a little more slowly than Norwegians and don't drop as many final consonants. But Danish is kind of hilariously unintelligible because it sounds like the actors are being slowly strangled.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,615 posts)that are actually religious or church words, e.g., calice and tabernac - which are used in conversation in the same context as damn or even fuck in English, and are considered to be quite rude. Maybe this was the result of the Catholic Church's strong control over Quebec in the early days (and rebellion against it), but it's certainly an interesting form of cussing.
DFW
(54,302 posts)I'm not sure with whom, though!
My longest-standing Québec friend was in their foreign service for decades. He was even Canada's ambassador to the USA for the last part of Bill Clinton's administration. When Clinton left office, he became Canada's ambassador to France, and we used to hang in Paris on occasion. Being a professional diplomat for most of his working life, he was not given to using that kind of language, needless to say. So, while I am somewhat versed in what the French say when they are pissed (and being French, that is often!), I am not fluent in "des insultes Québécois."
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,615 posts)applegrove
(118,503 posts)NNadir
(33,479 posts)It is hard though to stick to French in France, since many people want to practice their English.
My son spent much of last summer in France, and I told him to not let them speak English to him. His French is better than mine, but it was his first trip to France, and his first time to be required to speak and understand it in practice rather than in an academic setting, so I advised him to insist on French.
It turned out though, that the lab where he worked had a lot of Brazilian grad students and post docs, so everyone spoke English in the lab. He did learn some Portuguese on social outings, which he told me was fairly similar to Spanish, which he also speaks.
He did get to speak French around town, but not very much in the lab.
I have experienced in Montreal several rude reactions while trying to speak French. In my job, when I meet with lots of people from all over the world, all of whom speak English infused with their own grammar and pronunciation, I try to be tolerant and understanding.
I find the French are very much that way; the Canadians, not so much.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Unlike American English, French still uses many forms, but the passé simple is generally used in literature rather than regular conversation.
Have you seen the Groupe Francophone here?
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,534 posts)I commend you on your bravery and on your learning!
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,615 posts)is that a word or phrase can be technically correct but it's still wrong.
DFW
(54,302 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,615 posts)DFW
(54,302 posts)"Ich bin Pariser" = (French) Je suis parisien = (English) I am a Parisian
"Ich bin ein Pariser" = (French) Je suis un préservatif = (English) I am a condom
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,615 posts)tblue37
(65,227 posts)from England, called out, "Does anyone have a rubber? I've made a terrible mistake."
One of my American students responded, "Buddy, if you've already made a big mistake, it's too late for a rubber."
tblue37
(65,227 posts)study abroad group there for the summer, our Spanish friends always wanted us to bring KU souvenirs, especially shirts, because of what "ku" means there--a slangy form of culo (ass).
applegrove
(118,503 posts)Geshlausen". (When is the post office open Otto? No sorry it is xlosed on Sundays). Don't know how to spell it but i used the last phrase to tell German tourists we were closed when i worked out west. I left off the Sunday.
DFW
(54,302 posts)At first I thought that was Yiddish or something.
"Wann hat die Post offen, Otto?"
"Nein, sie ist am Sonntag geschlossen."
Just in case you ever need to write those phrases again! You didn't leave off the Sunday, by the way--German sentences have a different word order from English. Your "amzonta" is "am Sonntag," or "on Sunday(s)."
applegrove
(118,503 posts)DFW
(54,302 posts)Eastern European mongrel is more like it for me.
However, I have been with my German wife for 45 years now, and we have spoken nothing but German with each other from day one, and I have now been living in Germany for many years. I'd be some kind of idiot if I couldn't speak or write the language by now!
applegrove
(118,503 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,819 posts)今、私がそれを読むことができれば...はるかに多くの練習が必要です。
DFW
(54,302 posts)You use "watashi-ga" because you're a woman. A man would have to say "boku-wa."
Japanese has more twists and turns than Lombard Street in San Francisco!
yuiyoshida
(41,819 posts)is used by both men and women and is considered semi formal
Honorifics and Politeness Levels
Another major difference between Japanese and English is that Japanese utilizes different levels of speech, using honorifics, different words, polite-level verb conjugations, etc., depending on how formal or casual the situation is and how you rank to the person you're speaking to. This means that in Japanese, there are many different ways to say the same thing, and the way that's used depends on the situation. Japanese people speak very differently when talking to their close friends and family as opposed to talking to their boss or teacher. But this is also what makes Japanese a more "intimate" language compared to English.
There are 3 polite levels of speech in Japanese. The lowest is "keigo," which is also the most common and universal. "Keigo" simply incorporates the constant use of "desu," the -masu form of verbs, and certain other polite expressions. The majority of Japanese learning books, as well as most sample sentences in this guide, teach using "keigo" because it's the most appropriate, especially for foreigners. Above "keigo" are "sonkeigo" and "kenjougo." "Sonkeigo" is a honorific way of speaking in which you "elevate" the rank of the person you're speaking to or about way above your own. "Kenjougo" is a humble way of speaking in which you humble yourself or "lower" your rank below the person you're speaking to. "Sonkeigo" and "kenjougo" are only used in very formal situations, such as formal business meetings, an employee speaking to a customer, or a servant speaking to their master. But for most situations, "keigo" is the best choice.
Honorifics
Japanese honorifics are short "suffixes" added to the ends of names in order to imply status and relationship between the speaker and the person being spoken to. There are many different honorifics, but here are some common ones:
-san = "-san" is probably the most common honorific and it's used equally for men and women. It's used in most situations that are not casual and can be added to either first names or last names. It's usually translated into English as "Mr.", "Ms.", or "Mrs." but it's used much more often in Japanese than those titles are in English. "-san" should definitely be used for anyone who is not a casual friend or close family member.
-chan = "-chan" is usually used by girls and women, or sometimes young boys. It's used to denote love or affection, either to close female friends or to something cute and little, like an animal or a baby. The only time a man might use "-chan" is to show affection towards a younger girl. "-chan" can also be used to make cute "nick-names" for very close friends, but it shouldn't be used for anything but very casual situations.
-kun = -"-kun" is used to show affection to a close male friend or a younger boy(similar to "-chan" for a girl.) But it can also be used for someone(either male or female), of a lower rank or social status. And like "-san" it's used for both first and last names.
-sama = "-sama" is a more polite form of "-san." It's used to show great respect, usually to someone of higher rank.
Politeness Levels
"You" and "I"
Honorifics are only one way to imply relationships in Japanese. There are many ways to say "you" and "I" in Japanese and, like the honorifics, each way implies a different level of speech even though they all mean the same thing. Here are a few examples of the different forms of "you" and "I."
I, me
Watakushi = very formal
Watashi = formal
Atashi = female speaker only(informal)
Boku = male speaker only(informal)
Ore = male speaker only(very informal)
You
Note: In Japanese, it's more polite to say the person's name or title instead of saying "you"
Anata = polite
Anta = a little less polite than "anata"
Kimi = casual(used for someone lower than you, or an informal equal)
Omae = very informal(unless it's used for very casual situations, it could be considered impolite)
Temee = impolite(you might as well say "Watch it, you're pissing me off right now!" )
Kisama = very impolite and you shouldn't use it. (you might as well say "I hate your guts and I may be about to kick your ass!" )
Just so you know, there are certain words and levels of speech that only men use, and would be inappropriate for women to use. Constant use of "ore," "omae," "temee," plain forms of verbs, no honorifics, etc., is "yakuza" (gangster) speech. You'll usually hear "tough" hot-tempered guys talk like this - nearly all guys in shounen anime and manga use "yakuza." However, it's extremely inappropriate for women to use this speech - in fact, it's usually inappropriate for women to use anything below "atashi" to refer to themselves, or "anta" to refer to others. When in doubt, just refer to yourself as "watashi," people you don't know as "anata," and use "keigo." With that, you should be fine. Just don't go around talking like Naruto or Inuyasha unless you want to get glares or a punch in the face.
okyaku-san
One of the most common Japanese words, heard everyday and everywhere.
It basically means "customer" or "client", but it is used for any kind of service and there are dozens of nuances for each of them in English : patron, buyer, shopper, purchaser, clientele (e.g. of restaurants), regular (e.g. of a pub), passenger (plane, train, bus, taxi...), etc.
It also means "guest" (at home, for instance) or "visitor" (in a company), so it does not necessarily involve money.
irasshaimase
This expression is difficult to translate into English, because it has 3 different meanings. It's the polite form of "iku" (to go), "kuru" (to come) and "iru" (to stay/be). It is used to welcome customers into shops or restaurants. The "-mase" ending is a kind of polite imperative. The closest translation would thus be "please come !" or just "welcome !". Sometimes, people will say "irasshatte kudasai", which means the same.
There is another word for welcome in Japanese : "youkoso", but it's used more in the sense of really welcoming someone as a guest or visitor, normally not as a customer.
The "-masu" Form
As I discussed in the previous part of this guide, there are many different conjugations of Japanese verbs, but the basic present/future tense form is the Dictionary form. The "-masu" form has the same present/future tense meaning as the Dictionary form, but while the use of the Dictionary form creates a casual level of speech, use of the "-masu" form creates a normal-polite level. The "-masu" form is attached to Conjunctive base of a verb and can conjugate into five basic conjugations. I've listed these conjugations below and compared them to the Dictionary form of the same verb. The Dictionary form is in plain text, the "-masu" form is in italics.
Verb = aruku - walk
walk = aruku, arukimasu
doesn't walk = arukanai, arukimasen
walked = aruita, arukimashita
didn't walk = arukanakatta, arukimasen deshita
let's walk = arukou, arukimashou
Sample Sentences
To give you a better idea of the different politeness levels of Japanese speech, I've listed sample sentences below; first in English and then different ways of saying the same sentence in Japanese.
Note: The word for "you" can be eliminated in the Japanese sentences if it's already understood. Of course, whichever form of "you" that's used also affects the speech level of the sentence.
Eng.: What are you doing?
JPN:
sonkeigo: Nani o nasaimasu ka?
keigo: Anata wa nani o shimasu ka?
casual: Anta wa nani o suru ka?
not polite: Nani o shiyagare, temee?
Eng.: I'll wait for you at school.
JPN:
kenjougo: Gakkou de o-machi-itashimasu
keigo: Gakkou de matte imasu
casual: Gakkou de matte iru
DFW
(54,302 posts)She is 100% born and raised in Japan, didn't move to the States until age 30. She is my source for spoken Japanese (my Katagana and Hiragana suck and my Kanji is non-existent--I'm lucky if I can recognize the subway signs for Ginza and Sengakuji).
Interesting note about the social situation there (at least in 1982): she was willing to move to the USA to live with my brother there (my wife was/is not willing to move to the USA) because as a woman bank teller in Japan, she understood that her job prospects had reached the maximum she could hope for in her line of work. After moving to the Washington area to live with my brother, she was vice-director of the World Bank (she was responsible for Asia) within five years!
elleng
(130,773 posts)"Elle escalada!!!!"
DFW
(54,302 posts)I am in France and Belgium usually once a week, and western Switzerland (Genève) every few months. I'm on the phone to all three places at least once a day, so speaking French is pretty much second nature to me now after 40+ years of this. I don't even think about it any more, I just shift gears mentally.
trof
(54,256 posts)WTF is the past subjunctive pluperfect (or whatever) anyway?
When I met my Cajun wife's 80 something grandmother in Calcasieu Parrish in Louisiana I found that we communicated best if I spoke French to her.
athena
(4,187 posts)I've been studying French since I was a little girl. I lived in a French-speaking country for three years. I have friends with whom I communicate in French because they don't speak English. I read contemporary French literature for fun, and I listen to French radio every day. No one uses the verb "escalader" for climbing stairs. Furthermore, no one would use the "futur simple" in this context, where the "futur proche" would be much more natural. The entire dialog between the mother and daughter sounds awkward and artificial.
The "passé simple" isn't archaic; it's literary. Open any novel, and you will see it on practically every page. You can even hear it used in documentaries sometimes. No one would laugh at anyone for using it. Either you made this whole thing up, or you reconstructed the conversation between the mother and daughter incorrectly. Assuming the latter, the mother was laughing at you more for using the verb "escalader" than for using the "passé simple."
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's like a 3 year old screaming "I SHALL NOT SCALE THIS STAIRWAY"
athena
(4,187 posts)That could explain why her mother started laughing. I agree with drray23 that she was probably laughing at the situation and not at you. French people usually have extremely good manners; I don't think they'd laugh at someone they're not super-close to.
(I'm sorry for doubting your story. I was in a bad mood.)
ETA: You probably know this already, but one thing that took me way too many years to learn is that it's extremely important to never start speaking to anyone without first saying "Bonjour". Better yet, say "Bonjour monsieur" or "Bonjour madame". Even at a store, it's considered rude to approach a clerk with "Excusez-moi"; you're supposed to say "Bonjour monsieur" or "Bonjour madame", and then ask your question. Before I knew this rule, I thought French people were rude; since learning it, I've found them to be politer and more considerate on average than most Americans.
drray23
(7,619 posts)elle escalada is perfectly normal to say. its regular french, not 400 year old.
the past participle (passe simple) is a contemporary tense that is used everyday.
I think she just laughed at the situation. Her daugher did not want to come up, she sees the dog and take off like a rocket.
On edit, I forgot to say that the use of the verb escalader is strange. Regular french people would just say "je ne monterai pas! " (i wont come up).
escalader is more in the context of climbing a wall or a mountain.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)That's part of what made me write this down. I assume the kid had just learned it.
But, yeah, it would be like a 3 year old screaming "I WILL NOT SCALE THIS STAIRWAY!"
greatauntoftriplets
(175,729 posts)I went on to Brussels to visit other relatives. Every time I opened my mouth and said something to them (all in French because they didn't know English) they'd burst into laughter. Turns out that I was speaking French with a heavy Luxembourgisch accent.
Tikki
(14,549 posts)is Trou Noir which means...Black Hole.
You learn something new every day.
Tikki