Watched a movie tonight because I was sick of politics. "The Philadelphia Story".

[smirkymonkey]

with Katharine Hepburn, Cary Grant and Jimmy Stewart. There was also a remake you may have seen called "High Society" w/ Grace Kelly, Bing Crosby and Frank Sinatra. The original was much better. Has anyone seen either film and if so what did you think?

The basic premise is that the heroine, Tracy Lord, is a perfectionist ice queen who needs to be knocked down a few notches in order to be truly "lovable". Her "standards" for herself and others are too high and it is generally agreed that she needs to be more forgiving and less judgmental. The plot is a bit more complicated, but that is the basic gist.

Tracy is from a very well-to-do Philadelphia Main Line family and lives in the family home with her mother and sister and some household staff. Apparently, her father has run off with some showgirl which the family is somewhat embarrassed about and tries to keep under wraps. Tracy is getting married for a second time and the wayward father shows up unannounced.

The scene that really annoys me is that her father blames her for not being loving or adoring enough as the reason for his affair and she takes it in. The passive, dishrag of a mother also forgives the father and blames Tracy as well. If only Tracy had been more loving and adoring of her father, he wouldn't have had to go out looking for the adoration of another young woman.

For some reason, everyone accepts this as perfectly normal and the father is blameless and Tracy is the villain in this scenario. Maybe I am hypersensitive, but this just infuriated me for numerous reasons, but to keep it short, the bottom line is that the straying man is guiltless because his perfectionist daughter isn't "loving" enough. It's such bullshit, but even when I read the reviews in IMDB, it seems like nobody picked up on this at all.

I was just wondering if anyone else has seen either of these films and has picked up on this ridiculous premise of the father blaming the daughter for his infidelity because his daughter wasn't adoring enough?

[rickyhall]

1. I'm watching Forbidden Planet.

At least it depicts an optimistic future.

[crazytown]

2. Forbidden Plant contains one huge copout

Until the final scripts the "monster from the ID" - Morbius' hates, fears, jealousy and lust, kills him in the great machines' control room. After he falls to his knees, he is strangled. That's what causes the machine to power down.

[rickyhall]

27. I also noticed while watching the all white crew with no women.

Optimistic but no utopia. Star Trek was loosely based on this movie but Roddenberry diversified the cast somewhat. I saw a lecture about The Star Trek Movie by him in '79 at U of A, Fayetteville.

[dhol82]

3. I thought Hepburn was awesome in that role.

She was perfect for that part.
The remake with Kelly was nowhere near as good.

[ms liberty]

4. Many movies I loved as a kid have not held up. This one does

It is a classic comedy of manners/screwball comedy. Not meant as a social commentary or anything other than fluff and fun. Kate Hepburn was very involved in getting the movie made, and that is an interesting story in itself, but Kate was a fascinating woman.
Two former favorites of mine were McClintock and Hellfighters with John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara; I tried to watch them a couple of years ago and I was just appalled at how awful they were. No more John Wayne movies for me; I wanted to punch him in the mouth.
Editing to add that yes, I've seen High Society too and it isn't as good but it does have a stellar cast.

[abqtommy]

5. I agaree that the original is the best. The cast works well together and the story, drawn to

reflect human nature, is written well. For some reason I dislike Crosby and Sinatra but I can't say it's
an objective thing.

[smirkymonkey]

11. I like the original. For some reason, I really dislike Bing Crosby.

Maybe it's because I have heard it's because he was abusive toward his wife and children, but there is just something about him anyway that rubs me the wrong way. He seems arrogant and I never thought he was that talented.

Sinatra was a good Democrat and a much more talented artist. I still like listening to his music.

[abqtommy]

18. To each their own. It's hard to defend an opinion that isn't objective!

[smirkymonkey]

21. There is no such thing as an objective opinion.

They are always subjective by definition.

[abqtommy]

22. But who's doing the defining? I know that in my life I'm always brought up short by objectivity.

[smirkymonkey]

24. Not sure what you mean. As long as you are human, your opinions will always be

subjective. You can never be objective. It is impossible. The bias is built in.

[abqtommy]

29. Ah, I know the difference between opinion and fact. I know that when I express an opinion

I'm being subjective. When I'm posting a fact I provide links to sources that provide the facts and that's being objective.

Now what I just said is an opinion and a fact, being thereby both subjective and objective. I hope this clarifies things for you.

[smirkymonkey]

32. Source and links?

I'm waiting.

[abqtommy]

37. I think you know how to find information if you want it. I'm happy here in my reality.

[hedda_foil]

20. Sinatra was a good Democrat before he fell for Reagan.

[smirkymonkey]

25. I didn't realize he went for Reagan.

That is disappointing. I just know that he supported a lot of liberal causes and spoke and acted out against racism. It's a shame that he turned in his later years.

[Midnight Writer]

41. Which Reagan? Ronnie or Nancy?

[hedda_foil]

42. Ronnie. Though given Nancy's reputation as a starlet, who know!

[Mc Mike]

6. Very patriarchal in sentiments. Hepburn always did what she could to gain progress for women,

though. I picked up on that duplicitous scolding from her dad in the movie, first time I saw it. Him pushing the rich white guy establishment old boy values on her, and bringing her to tears about her 'guilt'.

I always hated Cary Grant. He's useless. Stewart could put in a good performance, shame he was a goper.

Adam's Rib was a very funny and refreshing movie. The judge yelling at Spencer Tracy to get down from there, when Katherine's expert witness strong woman had picked up and held him aloft in the court.

[smirkymonkey]

12. I sometimes feel like I am one of the few people who picked up on that.

Which only shows how far we still have to go. I have been on a Katharine Hepburn movie kick lately and I think she is great for the most part, but some of her roles surprise me, such as "Bringing up Baby". Also, the fact that she accepted her status as Spencer Tracy's mistress for so long and was so subservient to him. She was such a strong person in so many ways except when it came to men.

[Mc Mike]

43. My wife and I watched Philly Story a couple of decades ago, and when the dad

dresses her down for her faults, we both just looked at each other with wide eyes and ! points above our heads.

She had to work within the system in which she was temporally located. She pushed for progress. Maybe she had a blind spot re Tracy, or maybe the non-marriage was better for her, in her mind.

That's why I pointed out Adams Rib, because it was a dialogue between the Hepburn-Tracy characters about equality, fidelity, double standards, similarities of and differences between men and women in their relationships. By making the movie they were pushing against the double standard bs that Hepburn's father promoted in Philly Story.

[Pacifist Patriot]

7. Sadly, as someone said above...

a lot of classics don't translate well to modern sensibilities. It's hard for me to go back and watch films I adored when I was a teenager. The patriarchy has become jaw dropping. Kind of like browsing through print ads or seeing commercials from the 1950s. Ugh!

[smirkymonkey]

13. I don't think I have ever seen anything quite so blatant as this.

I watch a lot of old movies and there are a lot of strong female characters, there is definitely the usual sexism, but for a father to blame his infidelity on his daughter's lack of adoration is just abusive as far as I am concerned.

[llmart]

8. I can't remember if I've ever seen this one, though I probably have.

When watching old movies from that era, you must keep in mind the cultural norms of that time. It's OK to look at them and think "well, we've come a long way from those days", but have we really? I just watched a morning show promoting the latest Bachelor season coming up. Keep in mind, I've never watched the show, but I've been exposed to the clips over the years. This particular clip shows a bevy of girls running towards the latest bachelor with their arms outstretched and as if they're in a rapture of some sort. I can't even imagine that I would ever lower myself to do something like that when I was a young woman, let alone for all the world to see. I can't even believe that young women of today buy into the adoration of a man where they cry if they're not picked by him at the end of the show.

I would rather watch High Society than some of the crap that's on these days. My mother who was born in 1911 loved watching old movies such as that. It was one of the only pleasures she had in life. Our household was patriarchal to the nth degree and she was passive. I wonder if she saw that message watching this movie or if all she saw was a distraction from her awful, daily life? Sometimes a movie is just a movie, and what you take from it is dependent on the times, your own particular life situation at the time you're watching it or your stage of life.

I think I'll go get the movie from my local library and watch it. I truly don't remember if I've ever seen it.

[smirkymonkey]

15. I watch a lot of old films and there is the usual old-time sexism in most of them, but

most of it I can understand is just because it was a different period in time. For some reason, this really set me off because it seemed abusive. The philandering father was actually blaming his daughter for not being "adoring" enough as if that should absolve him of his sins. He was placing the burden on her.

Whatever her faults, I thought it was abusive for him to blame his child for his behavior. I also thought his wife was pathetic for being so forgiving and joining him in his plot to blame his daughter.

As I have said, I watch a number of old films, but this is the only film where the blatant sexism has really offended me.

[llmart]

35. If you really want to be offended...

Those of us who came of age in that era can tell you many, many stories of the blatant sexism, abusive fathers/husbands, sexual harassment in our workplaces, passive mothers who had no other choices, etc.

I can message you a gazillion instances and episodes in my life and my sisters' lives and my mother's life that would curl your toes! My two grown children are 45 and 49, one son, one daughter and they can't believe some of the stories. In reality, I probably don't have enough years left on this earth to tell all the stories.

That may be why an old movie like this would just be study in the culture of that era, but not trigger the negativity that it does with you. I have enough memories of my childhood that can accomplish that.

[smirkymonkey]

38. I suppose I am lucky to have had a loving father and a strong mother.

My dad wasn't exactly a feminist, but he always raised me to let me know that I could be anything I wanted to be and that I was just as intelligent as any man. He would never have blamed me for his shortcomings.

I'm sorry that you came of age in an era that was a bit less enlightened. I don't know if would have been able to endure it. I have such a built in resistance to any kind of injustice and would not have been able to keep my anger in check. Thank you for relating your experience!

[Martin Eden]

9. Hepburn's character was in need of coming down to earth

Her father's philandering was a minor subplot, not central to the theme of this movie which was part comedy and part showcase for its three brilliant stars -- Hepburn, Stewart, and Grant. In the end, don't you agree she belonged with Grant, not the guy she was going to marry? Her father played a role in Tracy making a better choice for happiness in her life.

I've always liked Philadelphia Story, but I prefer Ketherine Hepburn and Cary Grant in Holiday. In this movie Hepburn is down to earth and Grant is making the wrong choice in marrying the sister who values wealth and status. If you get a chance, I recommend Holiday.

Cary Grant was at his best in screwball comedies. He and Hepburn teamed up in what is perhaps the most acclaimed screwball comedy of all time -- Bringing Up Baby. Baby is an unexpected gift (a tame leopard).

I also highly recommend the following screwball comedies:

Cary Grant and Rosalind Russell in His Girl Friday.

Cary Grant in Arsenic and Old Lace (my personal favorite).

William Powell and Carole Lombard in My Man Godfrey.

Gary Cooper and Jean Arthur in the original Mr. Deeds Goes to Town.

These movies (especially the last two) offer much more than hilarity. If you haven't seen them, do yourself a favor.

A more serious but uplifting movie involving politics is the classic Mr. Smith goes to Washington. It features Jimmy Stewart, Jean Arthur, Claude Raines, Thomas Mitchell, and director Frank Capra at his best.

Classic movies from the 1930's & 40's are a good way to take one's mind off the terrible concerns of the present, but you don't need an excuse to enjoy these treasues even in the best of times.

[smirkymonkey]

16. I have seen all the films you have mentioned and I realize that her father's

philandering was a minor subplot. However, as a woman, it just deeply offended me that he would even dare to blame HER for his infidelity, whatever her faults. Yes, she was an ice queen, an entitled rich girl, blah, blah, blah. That was shown in her relationships with others.

I consider the fact that her father blaming her for his faults to be very sexist and abusive. I watch tons of old films and I can take most of the minor sexism in stride, but to me this was just beyond the pale. I am kind of surprised that a woman like Katharine Hepburn would have let such a subplot stand. He and he alone is responsible for his behavior. It is loathsome that he is blaming it on his daughter.

[Martin Eden]

28. I agree blaming his daughter made no sense.

But it was such a small part of the movie I just disregarded it. The father's character was already questionable due to his philandering, so blaming someone else for his own misdeeds was not surprising. I guess the real question on that score is whether it was the intent of the filmmakers to validate his weak excuse.

Given that you hadn't seen this movie before I assumed the possibility you had not seen at least some of the others I cited, all of which I like better than Philadelphia Story.

A fellow fan of classic movies,
Martin

[smirkymonkey]

40. Thanks Martin!

I do love old films, and I usually take the sexism in stride. I'm not sure why this set me off so much. I think in this Trumpian era it was another example of someone projecting their sins onto another innocent party which struck me as very unfair. I suppose it was the unfairness of it that disturbed me so much. I can generally forgive the period general sexism and even laugh at it, because most of it seems so ridiculous. But this just seemed so malicious.

Anyway, thank you for your input and suggestions. Another fan of classic movies!

[Polly Hennessey]

30. Well, we all get blamed for

lots of things we are not responsible for. Like tRump. Don’t be so hard on the old classics. They reflected the culture of the time. We don’t have much to crow about and agree that shows like the Bachelor and Bachelorette are annoying. They, too, reflect our current culture.

[malthaussen]

36. That would be because it is sexist and abusive.

It was 1940. "Sexist and abusive" was the default condition.

Why would Kate let such a subplot stand? Well, there are a number of reasons: she was under contract, she didn't write the thing, and as far ahead of her times as she may have been, she was not far enough ahead to see the implications of that subplot, or considered them insignificant. Sure, his blaming her for his conduct is loathsome and manipulative. But it was also the reality of the times. Hell, it's still a reality of our times, but women are starting to get a little fed up with it.

-- Mal

[smirkymonkey]

39. Thanks!

I appreciate the acknowledgment.

I just saw a bit on Chris Hayes's show w/ Rebecca Traister about her book (which I plan to order) called "Good and Mad" which is about how every revolution in society has started when oppressed groups got angry, but for some reason, now that white men have power, they want to subdue the anger of women and minorities by shaming them for their anger.

I think more women should read this and understand the power dynamics behind shaming us for being legitimately angry for how we are treated in this society.

https://www.amazon.com/Good-Mad-Revolutionary-Power-Womens/dp/1501181793

PRAISE FOR GOOD AND MAD BY REBECCA TRAISTER

“[A] rousing look at the political uses of this supposedly unfeminine emotion...written with energy and conviction...galvanizing reading.”—NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW

“Urgent, enlightened… well timed for this moment even as they transcend it, the kind of accounts often reviewed and discussed by women but that should certainly be read by men…realistic and compelling…Traister eloquently highlights the challenge of blaming not just forces and systems, but individuals.”—WASHINGTON POST

"While the anger of men is seen as 'stirring' and 'downright American,' women's is 'the screech of nails on our national chalkboard,' asserts journalist Traister in this invigorating look at the achievements of angry women from Carrie Nation to Beyoncé to the Parkland high school students. Through this lens she revisits the 2016 election, #blacklivesmatter and the #metoo movement (including her own Harvey Weinstein story) and cites a study showing you can tolerate pain longer - damn! - if you curse. Perfectly timed and inspiring.”—PEOPLE (BOOK OF THE WEEK)

Also, see below for the podcast and link to the interview w/ Chris and Rebecca. Very enlightening and worth a look.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/rebecca-traister-explains-why-women-are-so-furious-podcast-transcript-ncna915646

[MaryMagdaline]

10. As soon as you mentioned the movie I immediately thought of that scene

It’s really enraging. Young woman responsible for her father’s bad acts. The rest of the movie is great though. Good chemistry all the way around.

[smirkymonkey]

17. I agree, I really like the movie except for that little subplot.

The rest of the film is great. I am glad I am not the only person who noticed it.

[Fla Dem]

14. I'm binging "Messiah" on Netflix

Binging for me is at most 3 episodes a night. It's only a 10 episode series so will be done tonight. Intriguing story line.

https://www.netflix.com/title/80117557

[Aristus]

19. I played Dexter Haven, the Cary Grant role, in a local production of "The Philadelphia Story"

a little over twenty years ago.

Despite the subject matter, it was one of the most fun and fulfilling productions I've ever been involved with. Everyone in the cast liked each other and worked well together. There were none of the usual community theater idiots with no talent and a penchant for asking "What's my motivation?" The collective charisma of the cast members alone made it a good show.

Starting with the play's text that Haven was abusive when he was drunk, I started out playing him as a little embittered about his divorce from Tracy and her impending re-marriage. But the director took me aside and told me that since Haven is in recovery now, he's back to the fun likeable guy he used to be. That solidified the role for me, since everyone in the play is always talking about how much they like Dexter.

The gender roles have come a long way since the play was written. But I think it's important to remember that Tracy decides to dump George Kittredge when he lectures her on how a woman should behave in just one certain way, and no other. It's a start. The actress playing Tracy in my show would have made Katherine Hepburn proud; a lovely redhead who is strong and vulnerable by turns, and charmed the hell out of the audience.

[smirkymonkey]

23. That must have been fun!

That was the thing, she was so strong when it came to all the other relationships in her life, and even Kittredge's treatment of her didn't offend me as much because I could just see him as a 1950's stuffed shirt and controlling fiance. Nor did C.K. Dexter Haven's bad behavior offend me because I could see it in context.

I'm not sure why the father's behavior set me off so much. I suppose I feel like in a way it is gaslighting, where someone who is a selfish, narcissistic boor passes off the blame for their behavior on to someone else as if it was an excuse. Like she MADE him do it. Because there was something wrong with her. He refuses to own up to his own behavior. I think that I have had enough with narcissists in my life, so it is something that really leapt out to me. YOU made me do it! That was the message I got. A horrible thing for a father to say to a daughter.

[Aristus]

26. In the production I was in, Seth Lord, the father, was played as hapless and ineffectual.

Kind of a hand-wringing milquetoast who was too emotionally immature to own up to what he had done.

The real strength in the male cast was Uncle Willie. He was played by a renowned local actor and director who captivated audiences in every show he did. He and I played Willie and Dexter as being very close and fond of each other. My favorite scene with him was when Dexter tells Tracy's sister Dinah to explain her 'dream' to Tracy, and then he and Willie go off, arm-in-arm, to the liquor pantry.

[Ohiogal]

31. It's sometimes jaw dropping

to watch those old films and tv shows and see how women were portrayed ...as sex objects ....or blamed for everything wrong in society, or even ridiculed. Katharine Hepburn usually didn’t stand for roles like that and her films were above most of it.

Makes me think of Lucy Ricardo saying “yes sir” to Ricky or John Wayne putting Maureen O’Hara over his lap. To this day I cannot watch a John Wayne movie after I first saw him do that. It is repulsive to me that he is a hero and so beloved by many. Maybe I’m being too narrow minded.

[smirkymonkey]

33. No, you aren't being too narrow minded.

Women are always taught to second guess themselves when it comes to sexism. We know it when we see it. And I, for one, am fucking tired of being countered when what I see is clearly sexism.

Just saw this on Chris Hayes's show. Rebecca Traister's new book. "Good and Mad". We have been stuffing it down and holding it back for too long.

https://www.amazon.com/Good-Mad-Revolutionary-Power-Womens/dp/1501181793

Review
PRAISE FOR GOOD AND MAD BY REBECCA TRAISTER

“[A] rousing look at the political uses of this supposedly unfeminine emotion...written with energy and conviction...galvanizing reading.”—NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW

“Urgent, enlightened… well timed for this moment even as they transcend it, the kind of accounts often reviewed and discussed by women but that should certainly be read by men…realistic and compelling…Traister eloquently highlights the challenge of blaming not just forces and systems, but individuals.”—WASHINGTON POST

"While the anger of men is seen as 'stirring' and 'downright American,' women's is 'the screech of nails on our national chalkboard,' asserts journalist Traister in this invigorating look at the achievements of angry women from Carrie Nation to Beyoncé to the Parkland high school students. Through this lens she revisits the 2016 election, #blacklivesmatter and the #metoo movement (including her own Harvey Weinstein story) and cites a study showing you can tolerate pain longer - damn! - if you curse. Perfectly timed and inspiring.”—PEOPLE (BOOK OF THE WEEK)

"The vast and often surprising political energy stemming from the rage that ensued after the 2016 presidential election inspired feminist journalist Traister to examine the contemporary and historical impact of anger-specifically women's anger-within American society. The author states that women's anger has long been dismissed and repressed, and angry women often ridiculed as hysterical, irrational, even crazy. Yet she asserts that women's fury at injustice has been one of the most powerful forces in U.S. politics and culture, coalescing in numerous protests and movements that brought about lasting change. Traister explores the characteristics and themes of anger as well as the ways in which it took shape within social movements. She also recounts anger's role in defining the women's suffrage and feminist movements of the 19th and 20th centuries. Traister's arguments are deeply thought provoking and endlessly compelling, although she isn't always inclusive-she offers a thorough analysis of the different characteristics of white and black women's anger but mentions only briefly other women of color. Librarians should note that the cover's background pattern features a potentially offensive expletive. VERDICT Recommended for burgeoning activists and teens interested in politics, history, and current events.-Kelsy Peterson, Forest Hill College, Melbourne, Australia

Sorry, but after watching this show, I am pretty "Good and Mad" right now, and I am sick of what the republicans are trying to do to us.

[Ohiogal]

34. I would like to read this book.

Thanks for the info, SM!

I firmly believe that we won’t have a female President for a long, long, time, because there are still too many American men who find female politicians “off putting” or “angry” or they don’t like a woman who is outspoken and smart. We still have such a long way to go.