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William Seger

(10,778 posts)
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 12:09 PM Sep 2021

10-Year-Old Girl Has A Higher IQ Than Einstein and Hawking

https://interestingengineering.com/10-year-old-girl-has-a-higher-iq-than-einstein-and-hawking




With an IQ of 162, Adhara Pérez Sánchez is a young Mexican girl and her score is actually two points higher than Albert Einstein's and Stephen Hawking's. She dreams of being an astronaut to change the world, traveling to space, and even colonizing Mars, according to NBC San Diego.

And she is well on her way to making her dreams a reality. From the age of three, she learned to read, began assembling 100-piece puzzles, and even studied algebra. She is now pursuing two degrees in Mexico: one in systems engineering at Universidad CNCI and the other in industrial engineering with a focus on mathematics at UNITEC.

Life hasn't been easy on her, though. Pérez Sanchez was diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome, which is on the autism spectrum and can make social interaction difficult, at the tender age of three, and as a result, she struggled in school. She was bullied by her peers, who sometimes called her names like “weirdo” or “oddball”. According to some of her teachers, she slept through some of her classes and showed little interest in the material, which was out of character for her, in the words of her mother, Nallely Sánchez. The little girl often liked to pass the time by studying the periodic table at home, so her mother decided to seek assistance for a different education plan after she fell into depression and didn't want to go to school anymore.

This was a watershed moment for the family since it was then determined that she possessed a remarkable IQ of 162. It's worth noting that a person with an IQ of 130 is already regarded as gifted.

Following that, the child genius was able to learn in an environment that was tailored to her unique needs, enabling her to graduate elementary school by the age of five, middle school by age six, and high school by the age of eight.
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10-Year-Old Girl Has A Higher IQ Than Einstein and Hawking (Original Post) William Seger Sep 2021 OP
Marvelous. Do big things, little one! hlthe2b Sep 2021 #1
And it has surely happened before. Mister Ed Sep 2021 #2
So much this!! ❤ littlemissmartypants Sep 2021 #13
One of my best friends in high school colorado_ufo Sep 2021 #18
This Ferrets are Cool Sep 2021 #24
Not to brag WilmywoodNCparalegal Sep 2021 #3
Don't give a gift away samsingh Sep 2021 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author littlemissmartypants Sep 2021 #7
From another person classified as highly gifted... pjpossum Sep 2021 #5
I am in a similar place. lagomorph777 Sep 2021 #8
I was pretty smart in school, was sent ahead a grade, Ocelot II Sep 2021 #11
I got told the same thing. Born in 1951. 3catwoman3 Sep 2021 #20
My parents refused to let me go ahead by a grade csziggy Sep 2021 #29
Parents can give such dumb advice. pnwmom Sep 2021 #34
Overall, my parents were pretty good at encouraging their daughters csziggy Sep 2021 #48
Have you visited the Loners Group? You can take the MBTI & maybe make some friends. . . littlemissmartypants Sep 2021 #12
I, too, am socially awkward. 70sEraVet Sep 2021 #17
Have you ever tried mirroring others in your interactions? chowder66 Sep 2021 #21
One reason for gifted people being socially awkward wnylib Sep 2021 #35
a friend of mine in early college years had IQ of over 180 and joined the army certainot Sep 2021 #36
I'm probably not as gifted as you... appmanga Sep 2021 #40
Be you. Snackshack Sep 2021 #44
Social graces can and will be learned. Intelligence can't be gained if you don't have it Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2021 #51
It was just today Jerry2144 Sep 2021 #6
Hahaha. Don't be so hard on yourself. littlemissmartypants Sep 2021 #9
Lol! Dave Bowman Sep 2021 #16
Love it, love it! 😂😂 Duppers Sep 2021 #61
I hope that genius find its way into new approaches to help the world. Martin68 Sep 2021 #10
God bless her, and God help her. 2Gingersnaps Sep 2021 #14
I apparently qualify as gifted!? maybe that explains why I am such a loner. I thought it was my demigoddess Sep 2021 #15
Not all, or even most, intellectually gifted folks are socially awkward.. whathehell Sep 2021 #22
I also qualified as gifted. colorado_ufo Sep 2021 #19
Intelligence is often snuffed by surrounding dolts bucolic_frolic Sep 2021 #23
They isolated us in high school. Jon King Sep 2021 #25
Blah blah blah Orrex Sep 2021 #26
Extraordinary. Moebym Sep 2021 #27
Ummm....No toxicopoulus2 Sep 2021 #28
Sorry that you feel "silly", but.... pjpossum Sep 2021 #32
And, they are also finding a community here at DU. pjpossum Sep 2021 #33
Yup. IQ is a very misused scale ... TomWilm Sep 2021 #39
Yup clickbait headline Dukkha Sep 2021 #49
Off topic - I love the dig at the French and their smoking habits in this video n/t VWolf Sep 2021 #55
Took me years to convince my teachers whistler162 Sep 2021 #30
I graduated from HS with a D average and I did that with ease. Kaleva Sep 2021 #31
Take your own IQ test - see if you're a stable genius bucolic_frolic Sep 2021 #37
Thanks, but this test doesn't seem very accurate. LudwigPastorius Sep 2021 #47
Commercial IQ tests are designed to flatter the taker and get them to send people to the site to be Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2021 #52
Did you just tell me I'm not as smart as that test says I think I am? bucolic_frolic Sep 2021 #56
great story. K&R BootinUp Sep 2021 #38
No Data exist on Einstein I.Q. courtjester Sep 2021 #41
---and why would he have bothered to take such a test in the first place? 3Hotdogs Sep 2021 #42
And if Einstein did take one and scored 160, would a difference of 2 points be meaningful? GopherGal Sep 2021 #59
For the socially awkward and shy people..... I was socially awkward until about, maybe 15 years ago. 3Hotdogs Sep 2021 #43
I read of a man who was estimaged to have an IQ between 50 and 100 points higher than Einstein's. BobTheSubgenius Sep 2021 #45
This might mean something if the concept of IQ had some meaning, but it doesn't. NNadir Sep 2021 #46
Intelligence & desirability are multidimensional. Weighted scores like IQ & DQ are only an opinion Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2021 #53
No she doesn't Loki Liesmith Sep 2021 #50
I have suspected for a long time that IQs are lumpy ... planetc Sep 2021 #54
Agree with lumpy premise, but you are short-changing yourself. Music, math, and language Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2021 #62
Thanks for your recommendation and ... planetc Sep 2021 #63
Wow! I hope her brain power goes to good use and that she grows up happy. TeamProg Sep 2021 #57
The value and utility of IQ testing is questionable, of course. RVN VET71 Sep 2021 #58
We never had our girls tested for IQ scores DFW Sep 2021 #60
K&R MatthewHatesTrump2 Sep 2021 #64

Mister Ed

(5,928 posts)
2. And it has surely happened before.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 12:35 PM
Sep 2021

The female Newton, the female Copernicus, the female Einstein have all been lost to humanity, living and dying unnoticed, with their ability undeveloped and unused.

It puts me in mind of an anecdote told by my high-school Biology teacher, who was quite a learned man himself, and a PhD. He told of a girl from his rural Minnesota hometown whose IQ scores exceeded those of Einstein. The girl refused all entreaties to attend college or develop her rare gift because she didn't want to live the life of a freak or a social outcast. Instead, she married after high school and lived out her life within the narrowly-defined role of a 1950's American housewife.

colorado_ufo

(5,733 posts)
18. One of my best friends in high school
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 02:07 PM
Sep 2021

received a scholarship for her mathematical skills to the University of Oklahoma's summer program, was a math whiz! The last time that I saw her, she was ironing clothes while watching golf on TV.

My sister received a four year, all expenses scholarship to Loyola University for her advanced fine art skills. She left school to marry a truck driver.

I have known so many brilliant young women whose gifts were lost to the world. It is difficult to balance the demands of culture, biology, aspirations, and personal happiness and contentment.

WilmywoodNCparalegal

(2,654 posts)
3. Not to brag
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 01:00 PM
Sep 2021

but let's just say that I fall in certain parameters that make me extremely gifted. That being said, I would exchange average intelligence for the ability to be less socially awkward and more sure about myself socially.

I am a very social person in that I enjoy people and groups, but I have a very hard time in those settings because I am a bit aloof until people get to know me and people don't want to get to know me because I'm aloof - the catch-22 issue.

Dating has also been very hard because, despite the fact that men consider me attractive, I don't have the flirting abilities of most others and ... see above. I am also not the girliest of girls.

I am grateful for my intellectual abilities, but I definitely lack in other things and I know this is a common problem among those who are classified as gifted.

samsingh

(17,595 posts)
4. Don't give a gift away
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 01:10 PM
Sep 2021

You should keep you high intelligence and just work on the areas you perceive to be gaffes. It's not about changing who you are, but instead recognizing how others interact. Each person you meet is different from the one before, so we are all having to adapt all the time.

Stay gifted!

Response to samsingh (Reply #4)

 

pjpossum

(73 posts)
5. From another person classified as highly gifted...
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 01:25 PM
Sep 2021

Sounds like you are more of an introvert, rather than an extrovert. Your life experiences have formed who you currently are, but that doesn't have to be your future. I'm sure you self-analyse. Look at what you would like to change about yourself and take positive steps.
Also, those people that you think are happy because they are good in social situations, many of them aren't happy.
I've learned that the people that are worth having in your life will look past social awkwardness and see your good qualities.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
8. I am in a similar place.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 01:26 PM
Sep 2021

Best to find somebody with similar abilities and disabilities; they will be more patient. I wish I had understood that before getting married to somebody who only saw me as a meal ticket and a soft target.

Ocelot II

(115,669 posts)
11. I was pretty smart in school, was sent ahead a grade,
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 01:28 PM
Sep 2021

which of course made me even more of a social outcast than I would have been anyhow, just on account of being a girl who did well in school in the mid '50s. When I got to high school in the early '60s my mom told me the boys didn't like smart girls so don't be too obvious about it. So I retreated into a state of nearly-invisible nerdiness which persists to this day. It's really nice to see bright girls finally getting some recognition.

3catwoman3

(23,971 posts)
20. I got told the same thing. Born in 1951.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 02:12 PM
Sep 2021

I didn’t listen to that bit of advice. I knew I wouldn’t be able to pretend to be someone/something I wasn’t for my whole life.

csziggy

(34,136 posts)
29. My parents refused to let me go ahead by a grade
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 04:29 PM
Sep 2021

Even though my test scores showed I was two or three grades ahead of my classmates. They were worried about me becoming a "social outcast" but it happened anyway. My fifth grade math/science teacher used my grades as an example in explaining how grading on the curve was done - and made the point that with my high score, everyone else in class got at least one letter lower than they would have otherwise. That sealed my fate.

After that, in that small town where most of my classmates had been in the same classes since kindergarten, I was shunned or made fun of by the other kids. The only times they were "nice" to me was when they wanted me on their team for school projects or wanted me to let them cheat off my tests.

As a comparison, my oldest sister was a bona fide genius, valedictorian of her high school class, got every language, science and math award, plus a free ride to college. She was also brilliant enough that she was also very socially active and could handle any kind of public event. She got her PhD and taught neurophysiology until her early death.

My second oldest sister was nearly as smart but put more emphasis on her social life than on her academic - I think because she knew she could not compete with our oldest sister there. Our little sister started first grade at five, skipped her senior year in high school and got her AA degree at the same time her classmates were getting their HS diplomas, got her Bachelor's in eighteen more months when she was too young to sign a contract.

I contend I am the dumbest member of my family of all girls

pnwmom

(108,974 posts)
34. Parents can give such dumb advice.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 08:13 PM
Sep 2021

When I was in fifth grade my dad told me not to raise my hand or the boys wouldn't like me. Also, he said I had to be a doctor or a lawyer. Even at that age I could sense the double message.

csziggy

(34,136 posts)
48. Overall, my parents were pretty good at encouraging their daughters
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 03:31 AM
Sep 2021

To go out and be on their own. Mom's best advice was to never have to depend on a man to support us - even if we married we should be able to support ourselves.

They paid for all of us to get through college, which even in the 1960s was unusual. Dad's great grandfather made sure in his will that all his grandchildren, even the granddaughters were able to complete college, so Dad was prepped for his daughters to go. Mom should have gone but her scholarship she won could only pay for nursing school since her family could not afford to assist at all. But she became an RN and worked at that once all of us were in school.

70sEraVet

(3,491 posts)
17. I, too, am socially awkward.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 01:54 PM
Sep 2021

But alas, I'm not gifted with a high IQ. You're lucky you have a reason for being awkward.

chowder66

(9,067 posts)
21. Have you ever tried mirroring others in your interactions?
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 02:31 PM
Sep 2021

I didn't know about this until years ago... but it came to me naturally. It can be imitated. The thing is to make it seem organic.

Example; if they lean in, you lean in as well. If they blink, then smile, you copy. You can also pick up certain speech patterns and mimic those or key words.
You don't need to sync on these little interactions and shouldn't but they should follow quickly.

If I remember correctly, this is flattering or comforting to the person you are mirroring which leads people feeling closer to you.

wnylib

(21,426 posts)
35. One reason for gifted people being socially awkward
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 08:47 PM
Sep 2021

might be the scarcity of peers to interact with.

Parents, educators, psychologists, and sociologists don't always agree on what is in a gifted child's best interests socially. Stay at age grade level in order to socialize with children their own age and let them have their own academic materials or private tutors? Advance them to a grade level that suits their academic or artistic ability? Send them to a school for gifted children where they have intellectual or talented peers at their own age and ability level to feel comfortable with and socialize?

I knew a couple gifted kids in school. One was an incredibly talented artist at age 12 who did water color portraits of people. She was given extra art classes and allowed to set her own goals there. Her academic skills were high average, but her artistic talent set her apart from the other girls in clothing, hair, and makeup styles at an age when adolescent conformity was the social "norm."

Another girl in some of my classes had been advanced several grades due to her IQ. She was always trying to "fit in" socially although emotionally and psychologically she was at a different developmental stage than the rest of us.

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
36. a friend of mine in early college years had IQ of over 180 and joined the army
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 08:55 PM
Sep 2021

he even tried reducing nutrition himself to decrease his IQ

in the army he got shifted to intel. learned arabic, probably a snap, and disappeared

appmanga

(571 posts)
40. I'm probably not as gifted as you...
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 10:27 PM
Sep 2021

...but I also fall within those certain parameters and it took a long time to finally be comfortable being that kind of different. While I have to admit your photo doesn't flatter you, it's what's inside that counts. I'd take a chance on you.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,988 posts)
51. Social graces can and will be learned. Intelligence can't be gained if you don't have it
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 08:44 AM
Sep 2021

You are lucky. Stupid but social people have nowhere to go. You have golden opportunities because you are intelligent and you will learn how to go places socially with gentle ease. You will accomplish much because of your intelligence and you will in time complete the package. Stupid and average people can never get as big a package as you can. You have more tools and ultimately that will help you go beyond average people even in the social realm.

I was introverted as a teenager and it took about 10 years to become comfortable in social settings. Even years later, every day, I make little gains in understanding. Now I'm confident, I make friends easily, I get along with people, I'm relaxed in groups, life is good.

The main thing is not to worry. Your intelligence is a secret or not so secret super-power. It is your base, your foundation, your life-saver, your ultimate key to joy.

If a date blows up, ... so what? Too bad. On to the next one, when the opportunity arises.

Move forward, learn from the past, envision a future, EMBRACE the present.

Jerry2144

(2,099 posts)
6. It was just today
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 01:25 PM
Sep 2021

That I learned Albert Einstein was a real person. I always thought he was a theoretical physicist.

Duppers

(28,118 posts)
61. Love it, love it! 😂😂
Fri Sep 10, 2021, 03:16 AM
Sep 2021

My dh, who is a t.p., sat here cackling along with me after I read your post aloud.

He's rather socially awkward & sits mute when he actually has a lot to offer to conversations. Says he couldn't think of anything to say. Ha! He just tunes out because he's lost in his own thoughts.

2Gingersnaps

(1,000 posts)
14. God bless her, and God help her.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 01:36 PM
Sep 2021

Hope she has a tiger Mom making sure she is allowed to be a little girl, and a smarty pants. The world may be evolving slowly, but it is evolving.

demigoddess

(6,640 posts)
15. I apparently qualify as gifted!? maybe that explains why I am such a loner. I thought it was my
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 01:41 PM
Sep 2021

upbringing.

BTW I have gifted, very gifted children.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
22. Not all, or even most, intellectually gifted folks are socially awkward..
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 02:32 PM
Sep 2021

It doesn't really work that way.

Jon King

(1,910 posts)
25. They isolated us in high school.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 02:48 PM
Sep 2021

There was one small group of ATP kids at our school, about 15 of us. ATP was for academically talented pupils, which they determined from testing. We took all classes together, separated from the other students. But they did allow us to take gym class and eat lunch with them! Kind of a weird situation now that I look back on it.

Orrex

(63,200 posts)
26. Blah blah blah
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 02:53 PM
Sep 2021
I can recall obscure AD&D trivia in excruciating detail. Can she say the same?

I wish her the very best for her bright future. Pity that she was born into this world and not a better one.

Moebym

(989 posts)
27. Extraordinary.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 02:56 PM
Sep 2021

My one wish for her is to be able to enjoy childhood while it lasts.

If she continues on this trajectory, her name may very well be mentioned alongside those of Hypatia, Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, and Sally Ride one day.

---

And since several other replies have done the same, I will join the bandwagon and write a bit about my experience as a child. I was always bright, but distracted and fidgety. More than one teacher had admonished me for stepping out of line. This lasted throughout my school years and into college, and my school performance - while still decent enough to get me in the top 5% of my high school class - did gradually slip over the years, leading to tense confrontations with my stereotypical high-expectation Asian parents.

I was around 25 before I finally received the diagnosis of Adult ADHD, which made me just another sad statistic as a woman whose ADHD was not recognized until adulthood.

toxicopoulus2

(5 posts)
28. Ummm....No
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 02:58 PM
Sep 2021

I feel silly for re-activating my membership just to comment on this but since it made it to the greatest thread section, I thought it had to be addressed.

While this young girl's achievement is indeed noteworthy, this article and MANY like it that have begun popping up are pushing a false narrative, and as a result they are diminishing the study of intelligence.

There is no record of either Einstein or Hawking ever taking an I.Q. test and any numbers attributed them have only been speculation based on what researchers "thought" that their scores had to be or outright lies. Why is this important? It really isn't because the way intelligence is measured has changed over time as well as the methods of determining it.

However, the article is right that generally, a derived score of 130 and above is considered to indicate greater acumen in a number of criteria over the mean; the term "gifted" isn't really used clinically anymore. But at numbers above this, it becomes almost immediately subjective and no one can say what an I.Q. of say, 200 would even look like in practical application.

Good for young Adhara, but I hope articles like this don't put increased (and unnecessary) expectations on her and what she wants to accomplish.

 

pjpossum

(73 posts)
32. Sorry that you feel "silly", but....
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 07:29 PM
Sep 2021

You are misreading most of the people's posts here. I would assume that most people would agree with you regarding the study of intelligence.
My take is that most of the individuals posting to this thread are getting on in years. They see the promise of youth and future endeavors in this child profiled here. They are also lamenting on their own missed opportunities and youth/future that is no longer a reality.
Pretty harmless, if I do say.

 

pjpossum

(73 posts)
33. And, they are also finding a community here at DU.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 07:44 PM
Sep 2021

Because of COVID-19, many people are isolated. Finding people that have had similar experiences helps make people feel less alone.

TomWilm

(1,832 posts)
39. Yup. IQ is a very misused scale ...
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 10:26 PM
Sep 2021

... and why is it always that BS about Einstein popping up. Intelligence is so much more, than what Mensa and such is bragging about. But good for that girl - unless her parent is taking this too seriously!

Dukkha

(7,341 posts)
49. Yup clickbait headline
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 06:24 AM
Sep 2021

I cringe every time I see Einstein or Hawking referenced in IQs as it's junk science at best. I'm sure she's a very bright young girl but IQ results can be dubiously ignored. Hawking himself said in his final years: “People who boast about their I.Q. are losers.” He was directly referring to the ex Dotard-in-chief.

 

whistler162

(11,155 posts)
30. Took me years to convince my teachers
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 06:40 PM
Sep 2021

Last edited Wed Sep 8, 2021, 07:19 PM - Edit history (1)

that my name wasn't Alec. Then I had to figure out why they thought I was the smart Alec since there was no Alec's in my class!

Kaleva

(36,294 posts)
31. I graduated from HS with a D average and I did that with ease.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 06:52 PM
Sep 2021

About the only reason I got passing grades was that no one wanted me to be there any longer then absolutely necessary.

I graduated when my principal called me into his office, pulled out my diploma from his desk drawer, threw it at me and told me to leave the building.

LudwigPastorius

(9,136 posts)
47. Thanks, but this test doesn't seem very accurate.
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 03:19 AM
Sep 2021

I scored about 15 points higher on this than any other test I've taken.

I don't think I suddenly got smarter overnight...especially at my age!

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,988 posts)
52. Commercial IQ tests are designed to flatter the taker and get them to send people to the site to be
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 09:03 AM
Sep 2021

... to be flattered and inflate their viewership numbers to generate advertising revenue. (No I did not visit that site.)

bucolic_frolic

(43,124 posts)
56. Did you just tell me I'm not as smart as that test says I think I am?
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 10:43 AM
Sep 2021

Oh, boy, what is the world and DU coming to?

courtjester

(43 posts)
41. No Data exist on Einstein I.Q.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 10:44 PM
Sep 2021

Please stop saying someone has a higher I.Q. than Einstein. Albert Einstein died before the test for I.Q. was developed. Hence, no
person on this planet knows his I.Q.

GopherGal

(2,008 posts)
59. And if Einstein did take one and scored 160, would a difference of 2 points be meaningful?
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 12:20 PM
Sep 2021

I sincerely doubt that an IQ test result of 162 means someone is significantly more intelligent than someone who has a result of 160. More likely, the person who got the 162 would be just as likely to get a 160 if they took the test a second time (or, more to the point, a different IQ test)

3Hotdogs

(12,370 posts)
43. For the socially awkward and shy people..... I was socially awkward until about, maybe 15 years ago.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 11:49 PM
Sep 2021

I am 78 years old.


And it was about 15 years ago that I retired. I am a widower but do not bother to date. I am in a hiking club and people seek me out to hike next to me on trails. My attitude and conversation is no longer about Do people like me. I don't try to play a roll or try to act sophisticated or whatever. In other words, I am comfortable being who I am.

My conversation with people is to find out how they are going on with their lives. What has changed. What is giving them pleasure and so forth.

I am happier now than I have ever been in my life.

Then yesterday, I was cleaning out the basement and came upon a 45 year old photo of me. I looked at it.... "Damn. I was a handsome devil." Problem was, I did not feel any of it 45 years ago. Now, I am older and fatter and it isn't about appearances but about how I feel about myself.

BobTheSubgenius

(11,563 posts)
45. I read of a man who was estimaged to have an IQ between 50 and 100 points higher than Einstein's.
Wed Sep 8, 2021, 11:54 PM
Sep 2021

He spoke 10 languages by the time he was 6, for example. He loathed the fame that his intellect brought.

NNadir

(33,512 posts)
46. This might mean something if the concept of IQ had some meaning, but it doesn't.
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 12:15 AM
Sep 2021

I covered this point elsewhere: A Note on This Race and IQ Business.

...That was all well and good, because it was a very serious matter.

They spent lots of time in those days trying to figure out, when you were in the third grade, how smart you were, so they could find out whether or not they should invest any energy educating your pathetic little stupid ass. If you did badly on the test, they put you in the "slow track." If you were a guy, they tried to teach you a mechanical skill, like metal shop, so you could be good at making license plates in prison. If you were a girl, they tried to see if they could teach you to type, or (especially if you weren't bad looking) how to make a sandwich for your husband.

So they measured my IQ and educated me accordingly. When I was a high school senior, they handed us our transcripts and all of us ran around with our IQ scores trying to determine who was smarter than who. Even though many of us had been together for 13 years at that point, including kindergarten, we needed that awesome number to figure out who was smart and who was and who wasn't smarter than whom. Thirteen years of classroom interaction couldn't have mattered less to us. We had a talismanic number that meant far more.

Over the years, many people have come up to me at different times and asked me what my IQ is. I have always answered "53," although sometimes I stretch the truth a bit and say "57."...

...Many Kossacks share my love of cars, and are always writing diaries about biofuels and Tesla Roadsters and hydrogen hypercars and also "cars are sustainable" books like "Winning the Oil Endgame," by Amory Lovins, award winning "genius," who is a high level marketing executive at Walmart.

Since we all love cars equally, let's ask how many of us would choose to buy a car based on a single number, say the "DQ" the "Desirability Quotient." Suppose I came up to you and said, "My car is better than your car because my car has a "DQ" of 238, while your car has a "DQ" of 79. We'll leave aside for a moment about whether or not your car's "DQ" indicates something about whether or not you should "execute" it (junk it) if it gives you any kind of trouble. Let's ask if you would be willing to invest in a car based on its "DQ," i.e. pay for it.

You might say to me, "Um, NNadir, I like to use my car to drive to Walmart, and it matters whether or not it can fit into tight parking spaces."

"Don't worry," I'd say, "That's factored in to the 'DQ'."

You might say to me, "Um, NNadir, I like to use my car to feel 'free,' just like in the TV ad and it matters to me if my car is able to drive over pristine river beds and billion year old geological formations, because I want my car to have four wheeled drive."

"Don't worry," I'd say, "That's factored in to the 'DQ'."

You might say to me, "Um, NNadir, I like to use my car to feel sexy, even though I'm fatter, uglier and balder than you are."

"Don't worry," I'd say, "That's factored in to the 'DQ'."

You might say to me, "Um, NNadir, I like to use my car to feel 'green,' and it's important to me that my car only consumes as much energy as 1,000 Cambodians use in a year every time I drive to Walmart, as opposed to Governor Arnie's hydrogen Hummer, which consumes as much as 10,000 Cambodians every time he drives to Walmart."

"Don't worry," I'd say, "That's factored in to the 'DQ'."

There's no sense beating the obvious analogy to death. You would never choose to buy a car based on some vague number with arcane criteria like a "DQ." How then, do people choose whether or not to educate a child, whether or not to execute an adult, whether or not to treat entire cultures with dignity and respect, based on a number?...

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,988 posts)
53. Intelligence & desirability are multidimensional. Weighted scores like IQ & DQ are only an opinion
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 09:09 AM
Sep 2021

... an opinion of whoever thought one set of weights was better than all the others.

In my opinion ... the DQ I like is Dairy Queen.

planetc

(7,805 posts)
54. I have suspected for a long time that IQs are lumpy ...
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 09:34 AM
Sep 2021

Accurate IQ tests would measure all the kinds of intelligence we know about: facility with words, with numbers, with music, with knowing where your body is in space (athletics), with beauty, with what other people are feeling, etc. That's not a complete list. My own lumpy IQ would show a big bump for language, a small hill for numbers, a medium hill for music appreciation, a biggish hill for perceiving beauty, etc. The objective in testing children's IQs would be to suggest to them what jobs they might really enjoy in their adult lives.

For example, someone calls Paul McCartney's father with Paul's test scores, and excitedly recommends that Paul be given a musical instrument to play, so high is his affinity for music. Jim McCartney replies, "I already gave him a trumpet. He's traded it in for a guitar." The trumpet gift and the trade-in really happened.

Someone calls Simone Biles's family and recommends that they support her in any sport she likes. They report she's been doing gymnastics since she was three, and is going to the state competitions next week.

Mary has taken her father's car apart and put it back together by age 12. Her father suggests a nice engineering school for her.

Also, please remember that William Faulkner took two English courses in college, probably composition. In one course, he got a D, and in the other, an F. Some years later, they gave him the Nobel prize in literature anyway.

I think everybody's IQ is lumpy, and that some of the early lumps turn into mountains because of the person's fascination with the subject. Hawking wasn't just interested in physics, he wanted to take the universe apart, and put it back together.

On the theory that people are happiest doing what they love to do, we should test all the intelligences, not just two. As for society, I haven't figured out how to deal with it yet. Right now, elementary school society wants everybody to be easily identifiable, which tends to stifle some very interesting people.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,988 posts)
62. Agree with lumpy premise, but you are short-changing yourself. Music, math, and language
Fri Sep 10, 2021, 06:41 AM
Sep 2021

Music, math, and language are closely related intelligences, which of course are themselves multi-dimensional. You are probably better at math than you realize, but math education is generally kind of bollixed-up.

Note: math is NOT "numbers"; that is a trope that needs to be stomped out of existence. Math is about dynamic processes, inter-relationships, analogies, and patterns. Like music and language are dynamic, full of inter-relationships, and patterns. Math is about things like how diminishing returns affect economic activity (derivatives of functions applied), airflow over a wing, how group relationships coordinate by networks, and spread of viral infections. Ultimately mathematics is beautiful.

There is abundant evidence (which I can't cite, but I'm confident in) that teaching math, music, and language to young children gives them a boost.

There is further evidence that dementia can be staved off to some degree by doing puzzles, playing music, dancing, and doing language related activities like crossword puzzles. That seems to be further evidence of connections and correlations.

So I encourage you to read more about math for fun. "Mathematics: the Science of Patterns" is a really good book I have, and there seems to be a follow-up: https://www.nature.com/articles/24778

planetc

(7,805 posts)
63. Thanks for your recommendation and ...
Fri Sep 10, 2021, 08:22 AM
Sep 2021

Bernardo--

I promise you I'm not minimizing my lack of talent for mathematics: I had to memorize my way through introductory calculus in college. But my saving grace is that whatever I don't understand, I'm still curious about, and I keep trying. So thanks a bunch for your recommendation of the Keith Devlin book. My library consortium doesn't have that, but it has four other Devlin titles I can get hold of easily. So I will!

As for the close relation between the sciences and music, that's established. Many scientists play in chamber orchestras. And of course, you have the rat experiments in which group A learn new mazes while Mozart is playing, and group B get no music. Group A learn faster-- and frankly, I think we can assume they enjoyed their learning more. This rather supports my feeling that people who do lots of what they love learn more about it.

Yes, intelligences are connected, and scientists hear math as music, and music as math, for that matter. We have to get away from testing for two kinds of talent and thinking our job is done. It's not!

TeamProg

(6,113 posts)
57. Wow! I hope her brain power goes to good use and that she grows up happy.
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 10:55 AM
Sep 2021

Being smart does not in itself, bring self-esteem, we all need happiness, support and purpose.

RVN VET71

(2,690 posts)
58. The value and utility of IQ testing is questionable, of course.
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 11:40 AM
Sep 2021

For instance, at 162, this kid's IQ would make her as smart as 2 Louie Gohmerts. And anyone can see, she’s way smarter than that.

(When I was in the service I peaked at some personal personnel information of people in my unit. A staff sergeant showed a GT score -- which is a very rough equivalent to the IQ -- of 164. I was amazed that an EM would be that smart and remain an EM. I mean, he was certainly smart enough to be an officer (of whom many seemed not all that bright). But he was a career soldier and very happy,
really nice guy who seemed to be doing exactly what he wanted to do. He told me he didn’t want to go through the grind of OCS and be made a 2nd Lt. because, among other things, there was a war on in Vietnam and 2nd Louies didn’t have very long life expectancies in combat. Yep, bright guy!)

DFW

(54,338 posts)
60. We never had our girls tested for IQ scores
Thu Sep 9, 2021, 04:07 PM
Sep 2021

We didn't want a "competition" atmosphere to arise. We just told them that no matter what happened, they were both smart, and they could do anything they wanted to do if they put an effort into it.

One was somewhat shy in nature in high school, and was told she would go nowhere by the brutally Darwinian German educational system. She was almost convinced of her supposed inabilities until she went to college in the USA. In the last year, a few weeks before graduation, she called me up in Germany, and asked what the word "valedictorian" meant, and why did it mean she had to give a speech in English in front of a couple of thousand people?

The other one was more of a go-getter, but never gave up her social life for academics exclusively. She went to college in the USA, too, and scored only so-so on the LSAT test because there were a lot of English words she wasn't (yet!) familiar with. So she went to a so-called "second tier" law school, graduating at age 25. At age 31, she was named the youngest partner ever at one of New York's top international law firms. She thanked us for never ever telling her there were things she couldn't do. If you tell your children that often enough, they might start to believe it, and then they will never try to make the best out of themselves. They need to be given that chance. Reality is brutal enough already.

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