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Bayard

(22,075 posts)
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 12:46 AM Aug 2022

Our new pupster, Frankie

We've actually had her for a month, just had to get pics uploaded.

Meet Frankie! She is a Scottish Collie--one of the, "old time collies," like you see in old paintings. Actually kind of rare these days, with their own registry. We adopted her from a breeder that has decided to go with a different breed.

She's a year old, and a complete doll baby, that has already brought great joy to our lives. She's funny, too smart, and loves to run, jump, and play. One of the most loving dogs I've ever had. Since our other 3 are getting up in years, we thought it was time to introduce a youngster. We are totally smitten.






Laying beside one of the Great Pyrenees.

25 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Our new pupster, Frankie (Original Post) Bayard Aug 2022 OP
A beauty.... Sogo Aug 2022 #1
Cute 🐶 Demovictory9 Aug 2022 #2
Looks like a large border collie. wnylib Aug 2022 #3
A bit smaller than a Border Collie Bayard Aug 2022 #4
Smaller? In the pic, it looks large wnylib Aug 2022 #5
Beautiful pupper! SheltieLover Aug 2022 #6
Wonderful! IrishAfricanAmerican Aug 2022 #7
Frankie is gorgeous. Duppers Aug 2022 #8
She's GORGEOUS!!! ❤ nt Raine Aug 2022 #9
Madainn Mhath Frankie ❤️ Donkees Aug 2022 #10
Thanks for the find! Bayard Aug 2022 #12
Photo Caption: Professor Duncan's Scotch Collies performed on both sides of the Atlantic ... Donkees Aug 2022 #13
Thank you! Bayard Aug 2022 #14
Came across Scotchcollie.org earlier today, have moved on to oldtimefarmshepherd.org :) Donkees Aug 2022 #16
Saving that to read later Bayard Aug 2022 #18
My interest in this topic is rooted in my earlier research on Border Collies ... Donkees Aug 2022 #19
The same traits Bayard Aug 2022 #21
That was the starting point of my original research, Agility trials and 'Reactive' Border Collies... Donkees Aug 2022 #22
Wishing you and Frankie a long and wonderful life together. Boomerproud Aug 2022 #11
Thank you, my friends, for your well wishes! Bayard Aug 2022 #15
Pretty face! Cracklin Charlie Aug 2022 #17
Beautiful baby! tblue37 Aug 2022 #20
What a sweet pea! cksmithy Aug 2022 #23
What a great story! Bayard Aug 2022 #24
Awww, she's adorable! What a perfect addition to your family! highplainsdem Aug 2022 #25

Bayard

(22,075 posts)
4. A bit smaller than a Border Collie
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:40 AM
Aug 2022

And as the breeder told me--"less intense."

She's about 40 lbs. I can pick her up.

wnylib

(21,481 posts)
5. Smaller? In the pic, it looks large
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:47 AM
Aug 2022

to me compared to border collie I have known. It's still a pup, isn't it?

I had a border collie years ago. People not familiar with the breed used to ask me if he was a miniature collie or a sheltie. Border collies are shorter than collies and do not have the long, full coat of a collie or sheltie.

Yes, border collies can be intense. Mine was very active, smart, protective, and a loving sweetheart.

Duppers

(28,125 posts)
8. Frankie is gorgeous.
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 03:27 AM
Aug 2022

And she looks as if she is settling in just fine...your GP's are accepting her into the family. Yay!
Collies are so sensitive & smart; hope you have many many years together with her.



Donkees

(31,413 posts)
13. Photo Caption: Professor Duncan's Scotch Collies performed on both sides of the Atlantic ...
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 12:30 PM
Aug 2022
Professor Duncan’s Scotch Collies performed on both sides of the Atlantic from the 1890s to 1920s

https://nationalpurebreddogday.com/professor-duncans-marvelous-collie-dogs/



It turns out that these dogs were “Professor Duncan’s Marvelous Collie Dogs,” billed as Duncan’s Royal Scotch Collies. In the late 19th century leading into the early 1900’s, Professor Duncan’s dogs entertained the people of London, and, in fact, topped the bill of the Pavilion during the first week of 1915. They were described as the “acme of animal training,” having appeared ‘before their Majesties by Royal Command!





Dunrovins Ole Shep was one of the remnant Scotch Collies found in America in the early 1990s
(https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/)

Now I'm reading more about 'Dunrovins Ole Shep' here:

These dogs were essentially pure old Scotch Collie as they existed around the turn of the century, but Mr. McDuffie felt the name “Scotch Collie” carried implications related to AKC show dogs and all the health problems that goes along with it, so chose to call this breed “Old Time Farm Shepherd” (OTFS) and began to register them as such with the NKC (National Kennel Club) where they are still registered today.

Ole Shep was bred to a pair of female English Shepherd littermates he obtained from Western Tennessee, Dunrovin’s Moline and Dunrovin’s Sassy. Only two litters were obtained from him, one from each female, before Ole Shep was stolen and Mr. McDuffie lost interest in the project. From these two litters were obtained (as far as I can determine) four dogs that have contributed to the farm collie genepool; McDuffie’s Beethoven, Chesney’s Rebel, Carter’s Rusty and Dunrovin’s Tankard, the rest were presumably sold to places where they were not bred with other farm collies, or if they were, their progeny are less well documented. Richard McDuffie’s son Rick owned McDuffie’s Beethoven and bred a few litters, which was the largest contribution to the farm collie movement to come out of Ole Shep, but over time he lost interest too.


Today most of the descendants of Dunrovin’s Ole Shep are registered English Shepherds, which isn’t necessarily bad as these are good working dogs, but Mr. McDuffie and many others saw something different in these dogs, something that had been lost in the English Shepherd breed, and as we get farther and farther from Ole Shep, we lose more and more of that, as these genes are diluted with English Shepherd blood. There is therefore something to be said for keeping the uniqueness of the Scotch Collie alive by breeding OTFS to OTFS or at the very least to carefully selected individuals of other breeds.


https://www.oldtimefarmshepherd.org/current-collie-articles/dunrovins-ole-shep-and-the-otfs-legacy/


Dunrovins Ole Shep


Bayard

(22,075 posts)
14. Thank you!
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 03:07 PM
Aug 2022

Scotchcollie.org says:

"In 1900 the Scotch Collie was the dog to have, they were sought after by farmers for their herding ability and they were sought after by city dwellers because they were intelligent and loyal pets, in fact the qualities that made the Scotch Collie a great farm dog were largely the exact same properties that made it a great family dog, their intelligence and desire to please. Later in the 20th century fancy show dogs and the decline of the small family farm made the Scotch Collie obsolete, a few people began searching for and reviving these dogs in the 1980s and 1990s. Today we have a small population of these fantastic dogs left, join us as we work to preserve and increase the Old-Time Scotch Collie."

Donkees

(31,413 posts)
16. Came across Scotchcollie.org earlier today, have moved on to oldtimefarmshepherd.org :)
Mon Aug 29, 2022, 03:49 PM
Aug 2022
https://www.oldtimefarmshepherd.org/current-collie-articles/farm-collie-movement/happened-shep-linda-rorem/

Whatever Happened to Old Shep? by Linda Rorem
Farm Collie Movement



“Bob” lived during the 1920’s in Rockford, IL

Within the overall category of this “old fashioned collie” were local variants, but the basic type was similar to the dog described by John Holmes in The Farmer’s Dog:

There are several other types of Collie quite distinct from the Border Collie in that they are ‘loose-eyed’ workers. Most of these are native to Scotland and include the old-fashioned Scotch Collie from which the modern show collie is descended. now practically extinct, I have clear recollections of several of these dogs in my youth and believe that, in my early efforts to walk, I was assisted by one. They were all easy-going, level-headed dogs, useful but not flashy workers, and quite willing to lie about the place when there was nothing better to do. Personally, I think it a great pity that this type has been practically exterminated by the increasing popularity of ‘strong-eyed’ dogs. For all-round farm work they were often far more use than the classically bred [trials type] dog.

Bayard

(22,075 posts)
18. Saving that to read later
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 09:03 AM
Aug 2022

Wondering what the difference is between loose eyed and strong eyed.

When I was younger, I had an AKC registered Rough Collie. She was completely brainless.

Donkees

(31,413 posts)
19. My interest in this topic is rooted in my earlier research on Border Collies ...
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 09:35 AM
Aug 2022

It seems the earlier Collies were shaped more by temperament selection, intelligence, and health and not so much by ''breed standard" appearances. They seem to have had a more balanced nervous system, and not as obsessive in behavior as modern Border Collies, 'throw the ball!, throw the ball!, throw the ball!' They worked and they were able to relax.

The difference between loose eyed and strong eyed in herding breeds:

The strong-eyed dogs tend to have speed, intensity and a lot of drive – all traits that help them to excel at covering stock in large areas and taking control of the livestock. The International sheep dog trials that are commonly seen on television are designed to show off these points. These strong-eyed dogs have been bred to work in this style. They have also been bred for working temperament, to be biddable working for and with their handler. Many give easily to pressure, reacting quickly to handler’s training techniques.

In comparison, many of the loose-eyed dogs have been bred to work independently, learning from other dogs on the farm, or through trial and error. These dogs excel working in small pens, stockyards, feed lots and sorting chutes doing ranch or farm chores. They use their presence and/or voice to move a large group from the rear when the stock at the front cannot see them. Many are versatile; they will work cattle in chutes one day and move geese, ducks or sheep the next. The independence they are bred for can make training very frustrating, especially for the beginner handler. They are bred to push into pressure, which means their reactions will differ from the strong-eyed breeds and the training techniques being used.

https://downriver.allbreedherding.com/loose-eye-versus-strong-eye/

Bayard

(22,075 posts)
21. The same traits
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 01:32 PM
Aug 2022

Make Border Collies excel at agility trials.

We're just trying to teach Frankie not to chase baby goats right now!

Donkees

(31,413 posts)
22. That was the starting point of my original research, Agility trials and 'Reactive' Border Collies...
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 02:53 PM
Aug 2022

While it's often been advised for Border Collies coming out of the shelter system, (those who are over-aroused, hyper vigilant, over-reactive, highly stressed, destructive, etc.), to engage in such intense exercise in order to 'tire them out', it actually makes their behavior worse and more obsessive. These dogs' stress levels take a longer time to dissipate. I don't recall the name of the behaviorist who was a Collie expert, but she did say that working Collies wouldn't be valuable to a farm if they were so highly excitable. They needed to be able to 'shut off' as well.

Basically, this thread has come full circle for me, learning about the early Scottish collies and their temperament, health. The only Border Collies I've come across were from shelters.

cksmithy

(231 posts)
23. What a sweet pea!
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 03:38 PM
Aug 2022

We adopted our first dog from Monterey county spca, didn't know what breed she was as a puppy. Looked very much like Frankie. Very smart, learned how to shake hands after one time with a treat. She loved to run, we finally realized what she was when we saw an ad for a Scottish whiskey, with her in the ad. I finally took her to obedience class at 11 years of age, she of course was top dog, and flabbergasted/stunned the teacher, at her age and how how smart she was. When I took a another rescue dog to the same class several years later, the teacher was still telling how it's never too late to train a dog and was bragging about our sweet dog, who had since passed away at 16 years of age. Deaf and blind I would tap her on the shoulder and she would know which was to go to get her to bed or her food bowl. She was so sweet and would speak to you, ask her a question, and she would answer, with dog speak not barks but roo, roo. Had a great vocabulary knew words like bed, ride, walk, what do you want to do? We would spell words because she was so smart. Her name was Carol and way before digital photos so I can't post a picture of her. She spoiled us, we thought all dogs were that smart.

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