Who Is Dying in Venezuela? A Revealing NYT Correction

[Judi Lynn]

Who Is Dying in Venezuela? A Revealing NYT Correction
By Peter Hart
Mar 26 2014

Venezuelan opposition leader Leopoldo Lopez has an op-ed in the New York Times today (3/26/14). Given that he is currently being held in a military prison, the piece is notable. But the most revealing part might be a correction that appears at the end:

Correction: March 26, 2014

An earlier version of this article incorrectly stated that the more than 30 people killed in the political demonstrations in Venezuela since February 4 were protesters. That number includes security forces and civilians, not only protesters.

So the op-ed currently reads, "Over 30 people, including security forces and civilians, have died in the demonstrations." In the original, those deaths were all considered to be on the protesters' side: "More than 1,500 protesters have been detained, more than 30 have been killed." If you have been relying on US media to follow the Venezuela story, or relying on Venezuelan opposition sources, you'd probably have the mistaken idea that the violence was basically all happening on one side–which might explain how this error got into the Times.

Jake Johnston of the Center for Economic & Policy Research (CEPR) has been keeping track of the deaths attributed to the protests ("Venezuela: Who Are They and How Did They Die?&quot , and a similar effort by Ewan Roberston can be found at Venezuelanalysis.com. The latter finds pro-government and anti-government deaths about equal (nine on both sides), with a dozen deaths of civilians with no apparent political affiliation–numbers that basically line up with Johnston's.

The presence of the protest barricades appears to be the most common cause of deaths: individuals shot while attempting to clear the opposition street blockades, automobile accidents caused by the presence of the barricades, and several incidents attributed to the opposition stringing razor wire across streets near the barricades. The most recent reported death was a pregnant woman who was shot while walking towards a barricade (AP, 3/24/14). She was not participating in the protest on either side.

More:
http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/03/26/who-is-dying-in-venezuela-a-revealing-nyt-correction/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=who-is-dying-in-venezuela-a-revealing-nyt-correction

[MADem]

1. That "pregnant woman" was a REPORTER, not a bystander. This article, sorry, is garbage.

It doesn't even have an essential fact right. And she wasn't shot by protesters, either.

It's also citing Venezuelanalysis like it isn't an arm of the Maduro regime.

[Judi Lynn]

2. No, she wasn't. I read she had arrived there on a bus after shopping.

It's not as if her story had not been described repeatedly in the last few days.

Sorry, not a reporter.

[MADem]

4. Did you read that in Venezuelanaysis? Well, they're wrong--as they often are.

https://twitter.com/NoticiasCaracol/status/448607810033430528/photo/1

She was a sign language reporter at Venevision:

Así, con lágrimas, presentadores de Venevisión despidieron a colega baleada

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. Where there's rioting someone is going to get hurt. Tell the wealthy to stop instigating overthrow

and there will be peace. Venezuela was a very poor country thanks to the same people who are now instigating rioting. They just can't take it that they're not in control.

[MADem]

15. Yes, all those """"wealthy""" students at the Venezuelan universities.

What you don't seem to understand is that the children of wealthy Venezuelans don't go to school in shitty Venezuela. They go to school in Spain, in Argentina, in Chile, in Puerto Rico, in USA, in UK...ANYWHERE but Venezuela.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

17. Oh yeah that's right! They're poor and downtrodden. LOL! You're not convincing anyone nt

[MADem]

21. Listen to you! Do you realize how you are coming across?

Those universities are for the middle and working class, not the rich. Smart poor kids go there, too.

As I said, the rich don't send their children to school in VZ. They send them to quality schools overseas. They're the ones with the dollar cash stashed in banks overseas. that's how they are able to get around the restrictions. Everyone else has to deal with currency controls, and the only way to get around those is to study some profession which is in short supply in VZ. Owing to the exchange rate, though, no one can afford to go even if they were accepted. They'd have to get a scholarship. Of course, once they get a scholarship, they can get a little part time job, even under the table, and smuggle greenbacks in, and with the exchange rate, they can make a fortune speculating. Many people cross land borders to do just this.

Everyone knows this--except you, apparently. I don't have to "convince" anyone. You do--and you haven't made the sale.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

23. Really? Well, wake up. The ones traveling to Venezuela to protest are wealthy

http://curacaochronicle.com/columns/rich-venezuelans-finance-student-protest-against-president-maduro-in-venezuela/

[MADem]

26. That's hilarious--the "source" for that claim is some idiot who said he read a comment on facebook!

You're getting a bit desperate. Did you even read your sad little link?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

28. Oh? A wealthy Venezuelan that traveled to Venezuela to protest is lying on his Facebook page?

WOW, you are really stretching this, aren't you?

[Marksman_91]

30. Says the one citing an article citing a Facebook comment as a legitimate source

At least it'd be nice for the author to actually show a screencap of the Facebook comment he presumably did.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

47. Actually, it said that the wealthy Venezuelan protestor said that on HIS facebook page - so it's

there for your perusal.

[MADem]

42. Says she who does not know what a "bala" is, and who does not know that

GNB stands for Guardia Nacional Bolivariana!!

The link will help you remember what "GNB" stands for, and here's a little picture to help you remember "balas:"


The caption, for those who have a reason to not know what "balas" means, is "There is no milk, there are bullets."


The students in VZ can't forget that word you apparently don't even know. Nor can the little kids who get shot by the overzealous GNB.

And here you are, lecturing people about how we should trust someone's "facebook" account as fact, while you shop dodgy translations! No ax to grind, there....nothing to see, move along!



Thanks for revealing all, though--I now know where you're coming from!

[Judi Lynn]

44. Would you be good enough to name the author of that immortal quote

you claim the "students" of Venezuela will never be able to forget?

I've never heard it and know it would be very decent of you to prove you didn't make it up yourself.

As for quotes involving simple food and death, there was one concocted by a true dictator, a true asesino who was financed, coddled, and adored by the U.S. right wing, and to whom the Reagan administration handing out oil tanker loads of US taxpayers' hard-earned tax dollars.

..... General Rios Montt's evangelical zeal is linked to the military 'education' he received - like many of his peers in Latin America - from the School of the r Americas, run by the US military in Panama. From the 19505 onwards this notorious 'Coup School' taught its students how to contribute to US interests and the anti-Communist effort by usurping political power in Latin America by any available means, including assassination, torture and 'disappearance'. After a US-orchestrated military coup in 1954, Guatemala became a key component of US 'counter-insurgency' activity throughout Central America. So when Rios Montt grew to maturity and duly seized power in 1982 he set out to show what a good student he had been. He launched a 'Guns and Beans' offensive against Guatemala's persistent insurgents. A subsequent report commissioned by the UN found that at least 448 mostly Indian villages had been simply wiped off the map. The targeting of the Mayan peoples forced hundreds of thousands to flee to the mountains or to neighboring Mexico. Many of those who remained were corralled into 'hamlets' to produce cash crops for export.

According to Amnesty International, in just four months there were more than 2,000 fully documented extrajudicial killings by the Guatemalan army: 'People of all ages were not only shot, they were burned alive, hacked to death, disembowelled, drowned, beheaded. Small children were smashed against rocks or bayoneted to death.' The Catholic bishops said: 'Never in our national history has it come to such extremes.' US President Ronald Reagan, visiting Guatemala on a swing through Latin America, hailed Rios Montt as 'totally dedicated to democracy'.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zeroes/Efrain_Rios_Montt.html

[center] [/center]

Ríos Montt is best known outside Guatemala for being tried for heading a military regime (1982–1983) that was partly responsible for having defeated the guerrillas through the "guns and beans" campaign, maintaining "If you are with us, we’ll feed you, if not, we’ll kill you".[6] Guatemala's 36-year civil war ended with the signing of a peace treaty in 1996. The civil war pitted Marxist rebels against the Guatemalan state, including the army, with huge numbers of civilians, both indigenous Mayas and mestizo Ladinos, caught in the crossfire. Up to 200,000 Guatemalans were killed and missing during the conflict, making it one of Latin America's most violent wars in modern history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efra%C3%ADn_R%C3%ADos_Montt

[MADem]

68. You really should read more carefully before you spout. I know that's a lot to ask, but it would

save you some effort. All that cutting and pasting, having nothing to do with the topic of Venezuela.

The "word" that SI didn't know was "bala." No "quote" by an "author." Just a simple, single word.

It's a word the students will never forget.

Particularly those who knew Daniel Tinoco, say, or Bassil da Costa.

We're not talking about Guatemala now Judi. You start another thread if you want to talk about that. Nor are we talking about how awful the USA is, so don't go there either because you'll just be playing all by yourself.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

46. That's some nice propaganda created by the RICH Venezuelans!! Wow.

Again, you're not being very successful at convincing anyone, including me.

Maybe the wealthy Venezuelan drawing board has more stuff you can dig up and post - something that looks more legit. So far, no cigar.

Or better yet, go ahead and post something else in Spanish. So far, you've posted one thing in Spanish and mistranslated it on purpose. Now you post propaganda created by the Venezuelan 1%? Anything else up your sleeve you'd care to show?

[MADem]

62. Look, with your poor grasp of basic Spanish, as evidenced by

your inability to translate "bullets" and "pellets" downthread, AND your cluelessness when you didn't "get" that the GNB was the Venezuelan National Guard, I have to say that I don't need anything "up my sleeve." It's obvious to me that you are putting yourself out there as an authority without any credentials or very basic knowledge, and you proved it with those posts that I cut-and-pasted and saved for posterity, so you couldn't make them disappear.

So lo siento, pero no puedo llorar when it comes to you. I just don't--no, CAN'T, based on your own words-- believe you and that's all your fault. You reap just what you sow.

[Judi Lynn]

31. Outstanding article! Superb. So glad you caught it!

I had to see if I could learn anything about Nelson Ramiz, found a quick look at an article published when they kidnapped Chavez in 2002. It says he is a Cuban-American, and he owns the Venezuelan airline, Aeropostal Airlines, which has 5 flights a day to Caracas from Miami.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=20020413&id=jYIfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0H8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6854,2827351

There's a very interesting Wikipedia on Nelson Ramiz' airline here:

Aeropostal Alas de Venezuela, normally referred to as just Aeropostal, is a formerly state-owned (now private owned) airline of Venezuela based in Torre Polar Oeste in Caracas, Venezuela.[2] It operates domestic services and international services in the Caribbean. Its main base is Simón Bolívar International Airport, Caracas.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeropostal_Alas_de_Venezuela

He was born in Cuba, and his wife is Venezuelan. Looks as if he's very deeply involved in Venezuelan business. A man to whom he tried to sell his airline got in trouble for money laundering.

These scums are always so much alike, aren't they?

[center]



[/center]

[Sarah Ibarruri]

48. Wealthy Cuban fascists in Miami + wealthy Venezuelan fascists = Great pals nt

[Marksman_91]

32. I think it would behoove you to actually talk with any of my friends that go to those schools

None of them are exactly what you'd call filthy rich right-wing fascists. But then again I'm actually Venezuelan and was born and raised in that country and actually have my family and most of my friends living there, so what do I know, right? I'm sure you're much more knowledgeable about what's happening in a country than someone who's actually been there for most of their life

[Judi Lynn]

34. Citizens of the U.S. are familiar with what happens during US-sponsored, controlled,

manipulated, arranged, set-in-motion, and dominated regime changes which ALWAYS benefit US business, and break the back of resistance to US dominance, power, influence, profit above the welfare of the population within the country.

They DO know about that.

[Marksman_91]

37. Again you go back to your overused "let's change the subject to how mean and evil the US is" tactic

Why does that not surprise me?

[Judi Lynn]

40. I think I will trust any Democrats here to recall history correctly.

Most Democrats have learned through their own natural interest in their own world, and their wish to see goodness prevail, not exclusion, alienation, helplessness prevail for the poor, and increasing profit and insulation from suffering for the professional, successful criminals whose very lives depend upon deriving their own wealth from the same poor they loathe and fear.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

66. Didn't you say you were Venezuelan? nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

52. I know plenty of Venezuelans in Miami. The ones there are not the poor and downtrodden. They are

the ones calling the poor and downtrodden, "COMMUNISTS."

[Judi Lynn]

20. Are you making these statements on behalf of the Venezuelan oligarchs?

What do you think the chances are there are wealthy students in Venezuela now, tonight, tomorrow, etc.?

What do you think the chances are there are wealthy students manning the barricades today, tonight, tomorrow?

What do you think the chances are someone is also hiring mercenaries to do some of the dirtiest work, just as we know Cuban "exiles" have hired mercenaries from Central America to carry bombs into Cuba and place them in places where they might do the most damage in order to terrorize Cuban tourists, and drive off their tourism trade?

Why would you imagine DU'ers would be tempted to believe Venezuelans who have the government they want already, and for the last 15 years, are going out and murdering people who are trying to overturn their elections?

Everyone in the world knows who the people are who trade in death, who live to dominate, who believe they and no one else are the ones entitled to rule over the darker skinned people of the world.

[MADem]

24. Someone IS hiring mercenaries, you got THAT right!!

The GNB is riddled with CUBANS. This is a recent change, too--happening in the last month. I'm sure that it was the idea of "Rule by Decree" Maduro, helped along by his pal Raul.

But hey, pay no attention to those island accents amongst the green uniformes!

If Venezuela is such a paradise, why are the barricades being manned by youngsters, students, and old people without teeth? Mothers, grandfathers, banging on pots and demanding change? Doctors and nurses, marching to demand basic materials in the hospitals, like alcohol swabs, antibiotics, and latex gloves? Never mind running water and electricity!!

Amazing how the fashion of the "wealthy" in VZ is to wear cheap clothing, have the dental care of the poor and bang on pots while demanding food on the shelves, an end to crime and rampant murder, control of the rate of inflation, and other "silly" concerns like that. Who knew? I guess they're tired of being told to "eat less" by Maduro-Who-Never-Misses-A-Meal.

[Justina For Justice]

43. Don't Believe the U.S. Financed Lies About Venezuela!

I am a retired American lawyer who lived in Venezuela for six years, between 2006 and 2012.

Venezuela has a magnificent Constitution which provides all their citizens with the guarantees of good food, housing, jobs, and free education to the doctoral level. Their socialist government is working to create a truly human society which should be a model for the world.

I lived in Merida, a university town in the Andes, and personally witnessed the young thugs in the street who set up barricades, preventing the people of Merida from getting to work, school and shopping by stopping traffic on the critical main streets. They set up their barricades near the University campus, including one near my apartment and started fires with fires and trash in the streets. They threw molotov cocktails at the police and seized trucks and torched them.

When the police tried to stop them, they ran into the university campus which was off limits to the police by law, even though they were not students. The university administrators were, for the most part, in opposition to the government and allowed their campuses to be used by the thugs.

Given the nature of Merida's geography, a relative handful of thugs could virtually shut down the city with their barricades and fires.

There was a high likelihood that these thugs were being paid by the right-wing opposition to create chaos, hoping that the police would react to the violence, hoping to create "martyrs" to prove how repressive the government was. The police rarely reacted and were, in my estimation, usually too restrained given that the rights of average citizens were being trampled on by the thugs.

These same type of thugs have been doing the similar things in a few other cities in Venezuela. They are not representative of the majority of real university students whose lives are being badly affected by the shut-downs.

As for the "toothless" old people alleged to being participating in the street chaos, dental care is provided free to all citizens in VE, in the free neighborhood clinics, of which there are thousands throughout the country. If someone is toothless there, it is solely by choice.

The current "violence" in Venezuela is a drama, produced and directed by the right wing and televised on their media connections throughout the world. (Ninety percent of the working media in Ve is privately owned, many by companies who work with the right wing. They film the staged incidents with a view to passing their videos on to our receptive U.S. media.)

The current "problems" in VE are financed and run by the local wealthy right wing and by U.S. agencies such as USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy, the same groups which have caused similar havoc in other countries whose governments stray from the U.S. international capitalist line.

Venezuela today is under the same attack that took down the elected democratic governments in Iran (1953) and Chile (1973), among many others. The CIA likely has a much used manual developed over decades for destroying governments. The current activities in Venezuela are "by the book" disruptions. They want Venezuela's oil and will do anything to gain control of it.

Americans should not be fooled by all the media produced propaganda; it is the same lying trash that paved the way for the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Progressives in the U.S. should be supporting the South and Central American countries, like VE, which are trying to fight imperialism and create human societies which provide for the real needs and aspirations of their citizens.

[Judi Lynn]

45. This response is perfect, entirely beyond reproach. Thank you. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

65. Thank you for posting this. nt

[MADem]

69. Ha ha ha ha ha....

How amazing that you "witnessed" the guarimbas...before they were ever constructed!

I thought the students were far more content when Chavez was alive--now you're trying to claim otherwise? I think you've stepped in your own "enthusiasm."

I would love a ride in your time machine some time!

[Judi Lynn]

70. Are you going to be O.K.? We all know guarimba was a term used years ago,

years and years.

A huge proponent of "guarimba" is Robert Alonso, a Cuban "exile" who moved several years ago from his ranch outside Caracas, where he was discovered to be housing over 100 mercenaries brought from Colombia, who were living in Quonset huts as they prepared to invade Miraflores, after knocking over the National Guard depot, and taking rifles, on their way to eliminating Hugo Chavez.

An informant led the government to Alonso's property where the Colombians, some of them former soldiers, were rounded up, questioned. After this happened, crowds of real Venezuelan people marched in the streets to express their anger over the fact this had ever happened.

Alvaro Uribe met with Hugo Chavez for a very long meeting.

Now Robert Alonso is living in Miami, where he has ALWAYS had tons of creepy Cuban "exile" right-wing associates from the first.

Here's one post from 2005:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=167178&mesg_id=167217

Another article, from the Miami Herald:

The Miami Herald
Fri, Oct. 08, 2004
Outspoken Chávez foe seeks asylum in Miami

Robert Alonso, who advocated disobedience against Hugo Chávez in Venezuela, has surfaced in Miami seeking asylum.

BY ALFONSO CHARDY

A Venezuelan ranch owner and strident opponent of President Hugo Chávez says he had nothing to do with dozens of Colombians who supposedly received paramilitary training at his farm near Caracas.

Robert Alonso said the fighters likely were never on his property and that last spring's incident was a government plot to discredit him and Venezuela's opposition.

''It was payback for my tactics,'' Alonso said, referring to his systematic calls for aggressive civil disobedience against Chávez.

In his first wide-ranging interview with a U.S. newspaper since going into hiding months ago, Alonso told The Herald he plans to stay in the United States by seeking haven under the Cuban Adjustment Act, which allows Cuban refugees who reach U.S. soil to stay.

Sitting at a Starbucks on Kendall Drive near Dadeland Mall, the 54-year-old Alonso said he believes the so-called wet-foot/dry-foot policy applies to him because he still has his Cuban birth certificate.

Alonso and his sister, María Conchita Alonso, the Hollywood actress, were born in Cuba and became Venezuelans when their parents fled to the South American country after Fidel Castro seized power.

Venezuelan authorities sought to arrest Alonso after the incident near his farm in May.

More:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/venezuela/robert-alonso.htm

[center]

Robert Alonso[/center]
Some of those mercenaries were released, as mentioned here:

Venezuela frees Colombian prisoners
Posted 9/1/2007 8:35 PM

Howard Yanes, Associated Press Writer

SAN ANTONIO, Venezuela — More than two dozen Colombian prisoners arrested three years ago in an alleged plot against President Hugo Chavez were freed Saturday in a goodwill gesture he hopes will help facilitate a prisoner exchange in Colombia.

The 27 Colombians who boarded a bus to return home after being pardoned by Chavez were among more than 100 men arrested three years ago on accusations of plotting to stage a rebellion and assassinate the Venezuelan leader.

In a speech in Caracas, Chavez said he expects to meet soon with a high-ranking representative of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, to arrange a possible exchange of hundreds imprisoned guerrillas for about 45 prominent rebel-held hostages.

Among those being held by the rebels are three U.S. defense contractors and former presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt, a French-Colombian citizen.

The Colombian government and the FARC have voiced support in principle for the swap but have long argued about how to achieve it.

More:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2007-09-01-434845792_x.htm?AID=10709313&PID=6149995&SID=1mi92ldbgzqaf

[center] ~ ~ ~[/center]

Venezuela Says Colombians Held in Anti-Chavez Plot

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's security forces said Sunday they had captured more than 50 Colombian paramilitaries who were being trained by dissident Venezuelan military officers to launch attacks against President Hugo Chavez's government.

~snip~
Rodriguez said the ranch belonged to a member of the anti-Chavez opposition, Robert Alonso, whom he said was linked to Cuban exile groups in Miami opposed to Cuba's Communist President Fidel Castro (news - web sites).

Chavez, a firebrand left-wing populist who was briefly ousted in a coup in 2002, has in the last two years denounced numerous plots and conspiracies against him by opponents he says are backed by the U.S. government and Cuban exiles. He has often failed to back his charges with concrete evidence.

Washington has repeatedly denied his accusations of U.S. involvement.

More:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=542371

[center] ~ ~ ~[/center]
........... Venezuelan defense minister Jorge Garcia Carneiro said they were being trained by retired Venezuelan military officers to carry out a coup against the radical left-wing government of President Hugo Chavez.

One of the detainees confessed to a TV reporter that the owner of the farm offered him 500,000 Colombian pesos to work there. When he and other Colombians arrived more than a month ago, they were greeted by men in camouflage uniforms, who told them they would receive training for an attack on a National Guard base.

He said that the goal of the operation was to steal weapons from an arms depot at the base in order to arm a militia of about 3000 paramilitaries who would come to Venezuela.

According to documents found at the farm, at least 100 of the captured men were Colombian military reservists.

The property on which they were captured belongs to Cuban right-wing emigre Roberto Alonso, who is one of the leaders of a Venezuelan opposition group know as Bloque Democratico.

Ismael Garcia, a pro-government member of the legislature said that the paramilitaries who managed to escape did so through a property belonging to Cuban-Venezuelan media magnate and Chavez opponent Gustavo Cisneros. According to Newsweek magazine, Cisneros was one on the main architects of the failed April 11, 2002, coup against Chavez.

More:
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/583/583p18b.htm

[center]~ ~ ~



Robert Alonso[/center]

War on Hugo Chávez
An outlaw and former spook takes on the Venezuelan dictator
By Janine Zeitlin Thursday, Oct 11 2007

~snip~
These days Robert and Siomara live in a secret Kendall location. He is a Venezuelan outlaw accused of urging his countrymen by radio, newspaper, and Internet to hit the streets and cause anarchy.

[font size=4][font color=red] Robert dubs the plan that caused him to flee his homeland La Guarimba,[/font][/font] and says it's nonviolent. But the last time he made his pitch for revolt — in 2004 — at least 13 people were killed and more than 100 were wounded in clashes. "If you don't follow the instructions, it's not my fault.... When you commit yourself to something, you have to quemar los barcos, burn the ships. There's no way out," says the 57-year-old with a shock of white hair and an ample belly. "We're at war."

More:
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2007-10-11/news/war-on-hugo-ch-aacute-vez/

[MADem]

71. Are you? You're hyperposting, and using "discredited" sources like Miami Herald!

And your post didn't prove a doggone thing, except that you know how to cut/paste large swathes of material that are apropos of nothing.

That fat dude isn't a student. But hey, yet another valiant effort at distraction--something you excel at, I notice.

Here's another term that was used "years ago, years and years"--it's called "changing the subject."

And that's just what you're trying (and failing) to do.

[Judi Lynn]

73. I'm not betting we're going to be willing to sit around and wait for your next story

of what your relatives in Venezuela told you.

[MADem]

74. You're confusing me with someone else who doesn't buy what you're selling.

But hey, keep quoting the MIAMI HERALD, now! I'll keep that publication on my list of "approved" Judi Lynn resources.

[Judi Lynn]

18. The people who elected Hugo Chavez and Maduro have nothing to gain from violence.

Their electoral choices were already made and registered.

There's not a reason in the world they would be rioting, for chrissakes, is there?

These guys are wearing themselves out spinning like tiny tornadoes, day in, day out, so odd to witness.

So damned strange. Makes you feel you're watching a mutant strain of partially human being trying to cling to life, doesn't it? Part human, part chaos.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. Exactly and yes! nt

[Judi Lynn]

22. Tanx!

[MADem]

35. Why are they joining the students, then? Nothing to see there, move along?

You know, the minute you start hurling PERSONAL INSULTS at people, you've lost the argument. Let me cut and paste your latest insult for posterity.

This is not the argument of someone who has a case:

Makes you feel you're watching a mutant strain of partially human being trying to cling to life, doesn't it? Part human, part chaos.

Name calling doesn't win the day. Having a valid point, though, does.

Check out all these wealthy elites, waiting in food lines, just for fun, I'm sure...!

[Judi Lynn]

38. Why play music with this "real" footage? Does that make it more credible?

Who decided to throw in the video of Evo Morales and Raul Castro, anyway? Did they go "shopping," as well?

Do you have any footage of the bright idea WalMart has of opening on Black Friday after Thanksgiving, and hiring some poor schmucks to man the door and get stomped to death by poor people running into the store as fast as they can to save a dollar or two for their Christmas shopping?

Whoever manipulated the camera, whoever decided to give a little show for the heck of it, whoever thought it would be cool to play music and try to invoke the [font size=6]Terrrifyyyiinngg Cuubaannns[/font] was in charge of whatever that was we saw on that video, and should keep on trying to find a day job. I'm giving it a "thumbs down."

[MADem]

41. Yes, of course you are!

[Marksman_91]

11. She was an interpreter for the blind who worked on Venevisión

She was not involved with the protests, and witnesses state that she was murdered by subjects who shot from an SUV that suddenly drove up to one of the barricades to shoot at those were present by it.

Oh! And you know who is the prime suspect? A CORPOELEC WORKER!

http://acn.com.ve/trabajador-de-corpoelec-presunto-asesino-de-adriana-urquiola/

[MADem]

16. For the deaf, not the blind.

Anyone shooting at a guairimba is associated with the Maduro regime. Anyone working for CORPOELEC is part of the regime. They can line up for their flour and chickens for doing their wet work, no problem--but can they live with themselves?

But hey, next thing ya know, we'll hear that it was a student with one of those "airsoft" guns....

[Marksman_91]

29. Gah, guess it's too late to go back and edit it now. Always mix those 2 terms.

Anyway, wanna listen to the latest quote of gold made by a Ven. government Minister? This time it's the Food Minister Felix Osorio's mouth the garbage comes out of:

"People do lines for everything in this country, for the movies, concerts, pharmacies, and those don't get criticized. But yet they don't have a problem complaining about doing lines to buy food''

Let that sink in for a bit, a MINISTER whose job it is is to ensure that there's enough food for people in the country is comparing food, a basic necessity to survive, with recreational events such as going to the movies or concerts. What a load of mediocrity these people are. At least in the US you can buy as much food as you want without having to be tagged to limit how much you can take with you that day. That kind of shit only happens in countries that are at war. But apparently the Maduristas in this forum think having civilians' food being rationed by the central government is a sign of a progressive regime. It's really unbelievable.

http://sunoticiero.com/index.php/politica-not/44392-ministro-osorio-se-quejan-de-las-colas-para-comprar-comida-aqui-se-hace-cola-para-todo-video

Video proof for the cynics:

[MADem]

58. That whole rationing concept is just absurd in a country that wealthy.

Venezuela needs to keep their assets for Venezuelans, not engage in spurious alliances or bad business deals. Maduro was so desperate for "hard cash" money he recently sold China a bunch of oil at FIVE BUCKS a barrel. That's disgraceful.

But hey, in Venezuela, the way you deal with food shortages is to "Eat Less." Funny how the boligarchs in charge don't look like they've missed a meal.

[tblue37]

76. FYI, unlike on DU2, there is no time limit on this version of DU for editing posts.

You can go back at any time to fix an error in your post.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

3. This sentence in the article

(About protest leader Lopez) It is perhaps not surprising, then, that he would want to conceal the fact that the protests have been responsible for many of the deaths he would prefer to blame on the government.

Kinda sums it up.

I found this about Lopez, and on CNN no less:

Lopez comes from a well-to-do family in Venezuela. He attended The Hun School of Princeton, a private boarding school, and graduated in 1989. He then attended Kenyon College in Ohio, where he graduated with honors, receiving a degree in sociology. Lopez completed his education at Harvard University's School of Government and earned a master's degree.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/21/world/americas/profile-leopoldo-lopez/

[MADem]

5. The students are unarmed, and they are the ones who are dying.

The colectivos and GNB and police are the ones with the guns.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. I don't care if they're armed, unarmed, in drag, or wearing a horned Viking hat...

Those protesting do not represent Venezuela’s vast working class majority that struggled to overcome the oppressive exclusion they were subjected to during administrations before Chavez. The youth taking to the streets today in Caracas and other cities throughout the country, hiding their faces behind masks and balaclavas, destroying public buildings, vehicles, burning garbage, violently blocking transit and throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at security forces are being driven by extremist right-wing interests from Venezuela’s wealthiest sector. Led by hardline neoconservatives, Leopoldo Lopez, Henrique Capriles and Maria Corina Machado – who come from three of the wealthiest families in Venezuela, the 1% of the 1% – the protesters seek not to revindicate their basic fundamental rights, or gain access to free healthcare or education, all of which are guaranteed by the state, thanks to Chavez, but rather are attempting to spiral the country into a state of ungovernability that would justify an international intervention leading to regime change.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/21/venezuela-beyond-the-protests/

[MADem]

8. Counterpunch? Come on--they will toe the party line until Cabello murders Maduro

and blames it on someone else.

There will be regime change, I'm sure--but it will be from the left. The opposition doesn't have a chance. They never did.

And, FWIW, those students--who do represent an increasing number of dissatisfied Venezuelans from all income groups and walks of life-- are not "the opposition." They just want an end to crime, inflation, shortages, and murders by the dozen. How dare they ask for such things! The nerve of them!

You --and the blind PSUV crew at Counterpunch--can't explain how these opposition leaders can coordinate all this stuff from behind bars, stripped of their titles....but whatever.

They aren't running the show, these opposition leaders. The STUDENT leaders are. The students are demanding a live television debate (featuring STUDENT leadership against the regime, not "opposition" politicians) on the problems facing the country. Maduro is afraid to give it to them.

This focus on the opposition--which doesn't make up the critical mass of this movement, sorry to disappoint you--is a canard. It's a nice little Maduro Lie, but it's just not true.

And of course you don't care--you just want to cheer on the guy that Chavez, drugged to the gills by incompetent Cuban doctors, chose instead of Cabello (his old, dear friend, too). Raul made SURE that Hugo chose Maduro. What else could Hugo do? He was still believing the lies that the incompetent Cuban doctors could, by a miracle, save him. He needed them to keep the excruciating pain that invaded every bone in his body at bay.

Maduro, unlike Diosdado, is more easily led--and Raul Castro is leading him, clutching his "rule by decree" powers, down the primrose path. Raul is also stockpiling VZ oil like a mutha...do you think, perhaps, he might be anticipating another "special period" in the near future? I sure do.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

9. The very wealthy opposition is trying to take the country back to misery and lack. nt

[Marksman_91]

10. The "very wealthy opposition"?

Sorry, but at least 49% of Venezuelans are against Maduro, that means 7+ million Venezuelans who are registered to vote (that means this doesn't include those who are younger and not old enough to vote, or who aren't registered) and in no country does an entire half of the population consist of "very wealthy" opposition.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. Oh! 49% of Venezuelans are well-to-do right wingers? nt

[Marksman_91]

39. No, 49% of Venezuelans reject Maduro and that group is comprised of people from all social strata

including the most poor who live in barrios and what-not. So your argument that only the rich want this regime out is not really a valid one.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

49. And you're getting this data from where exactly, if you don't mind my asking? nt

[Oele]

53. The elections? n/t

[Marksman_91]

54. The actual pres. election results, maybe?

Just sayin', there's no such thing as a country in which 49% of the population is "wealthy", no even in Scandinavia. Get off that high horse.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

61. Maybe means you have no idea? And is voting mandatory there? And where are polls? nt

[Marksman_91]

77. The heck you talking about?

Last edited Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:20 PM - Edit history (2)

I ACTUALLY VOTED IN THOSE ELECTIONS! I along with thousands of other Venezuelans registered to vote in the South East region of the US took a day-long roadtrip all the way to New Orleans to go vote there. We all actually heard the results as they were announced live.

And no, voting is not mandatory. Really wish it was, though.

[MADem]

12. They don't have the power, they don't have control of the Armed Forces. The next

coup/putsch (to use a snarky word favored by a poster on this board) is going to come FROM THE LEFT.

And the guy pulling the strings will be--if not have--"God Given Hair."

Maduro has powers of decree now. Everything that goes wrong is HIS FAULT.

This isn't about "the wealthy opposition" anymore. While Maduro keeps screeching at you to "look at those guys" and he blames the USA, Diosdado Cabello is setting the guy up to take the blame and the fall.

If DC doesn't become the next "presidente," his PUPPET will. DC pulls the strings. And I am NOT talking 'bout the District of Columbia, either.

[MADem]

25. Yeah, like those little BABIES who were shot by GNB/colectivos....they're not on either side!

Let's blame the students for that--they "made" the colectivos and the GNB MAD! They "forced" them to shoot into the homes of those people!

Maduro's thugs, GNB and police are the ones with the guns.

http://www.venezuelaaldia.com/2014/03/dos-ninos-heridos-por-perdigones-en-tachira/

Un enfrentamiento entre manifestantes de Rubio en el municipio Junín (Tác) y efectivos de la Guardia Nacional Bolivariana (GNB) en el sector de La Gran Vía, dejó como saldo dos heridos de bala y unos 15 heridos de perdigón, entre ellos dos menores de edad de 1 y 3 años, quienes se encontraban en sus viviendas.

Nothing to see here--move along!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

27. I happen to speak Spanish. It says 2 kids were injured, NOT SHOT AT.

It also says this was a result of a confrontation between the (as-we-have-seen) wealthy protestors, and the National Guard. It does not say the GNB shot them. There was a confrontation, and as a result, some others that had nothing to do with this confrontation were injured.

Please do me and others a favor and stop making stuff up. If you're going to make stuff up, make sure the article you post is in Swahili, and not in Spanish, so I can't read it. Good try though.

[Marksman_91]

33. I've still yet to see any definitive proof that the protestors are "wealthy"n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

51. Then you're just going to have to read up on Venezuela somewhere outside the MSM, aren't you? nt

[Marksman_91]

55. Or from, you know, sources based in Venezuela

I actually was born and raised there, and not only is Spanish my native language, it's the Venezuelan dialect and lexicon I grew up with. And pretty much my whole family and most of my friends are still living there, experiencing the day-to-day situation in several major cities. News sources there and personal connections with people back home are where I get my information from, surely they're more credible than anything you can provide. Also, whenever I post something about an occurrence at least I post it along with videos/photographs backing it up. I'd like for you to do the same thing, just to keep things even, you know?

[MADem]

57. +1,000

The person you are speaking with doesn't even know that the GNB is the National Guard, never mind that a "bala" is a bullet.

It's getting pretty obvious that she's either operating without a lot of information, or she's engaging in some kind of perverse and contrary performance art. I didn't realize how little she knew until she tried to give me a bit of guff elsewhere in this thread. Very illuminating, that exchange.

From now on, I'm "considering the source" with that poster.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

60. And where do you live now? Let me guess, it's not there. nt

[MADem]

72. Well, we know you aren't living there--you'd know what the GNB was if you were.

You'd also probably not have any trouble translating a simple word like "balas" either--they're in the news most days.

[Marksman_91]

79. No, I don't live there, because of the crime.

I'm currently studying at FIU in Miami because my parents wouldn't simply have it with my brother and me studying in Caracas due to being constantly exposed on the streets, especially when we wanna go out during the night. At least here in Miami I can walk or bike around the streets without being worried that I'll get kidnapped or threatened at gunpoint just to get my celphone robbed. Plus we don't have to do 3-hour long lines just to buy milk (if there's enough) and can at least find all the food we want, even products from Venezuela that are very difficult to find for many back home right now, such as Harina P.A.N.

But I do go back every so often. And my parents, along with my 12-year-old sister, along with many uncles, cousins, and paternal grandmother, are all still there, plus most of my friends from school, who are also students, most of them studying in several universities in Caracas, among them the UCV, in which armed pro-government thugs broke into not long ago to rob and strip down students who were in the Faculty of Architecture.

I keep in constant touch with everybody there. Just recently one of my friends told me that a cousin of his was murdered by gunshot (another student, 22 years old) in a robbery. Maybe I'm not living there right now, but I sure as hell have better sources than any article by VenezuelaAnalysis or Weistbrot or that ridiculous hag Eva Golinger.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

80. My dad was an electrical engineer and was doing a job in Venezuela in the late 80s and early 90s

along with a French guy who was also an engineer. Both took their wives with them a few times as the project they were working on kept them away from home too much. However, the crime in Caracas was so horrific that even though they stayed at a 5-star hotel, they was told not to allow his wife to go out unescorted because it was almost impossible not to be assaulted. This was told to them by Venezuelans.

My mom and dad also said the poverty was nothing short of shocking. My mom had never seen anything quite like it.

[Marksman_91]

81. And things are actually worse now

If you thought that was horrible back then, boy, are you in for a treat when you go to Venezuela.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

82. They didn't think it, they knew it. Right now it's bad because wealthy Venezuelans are fighting the

democratically-elected government because they want their government-by-oligarchy back really bad.

[Marksman_91]

83. Oh, that so?

So I guess the murder of Monica Spear and her husband some months ago which shocked Venezuela and some parts of the world happened due to the protests, right? Oh, and I'm sure that the murderers were also "rich right-wing fascists", as well as those who were responsible for at least 24,000 homicides last year alone.

Please educate yourself a bit:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/26/venezuela-homicide-rate_n_4506363.html

Venezuela's Homicide Rate Quadruples In Fifteen Years, NGO Reports

ARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — A non-governmental group that tracks violent crime in Venezuela says the country's homicide rate has risen again in 2013 and has quadrupled over the past 15 years.

The Venezuelan Violence Observatory estimates that 24,763 killings occurred this year, pushing up the homicide rate to 79 per 100,000 inhabitants. It was 73 per 100,000 people in 2012. In 1998, the rate was 19.

Venezuela's government has gradually blocked access to murder statistics as violent crime has worsened the past decade. The report published Thursday was compiled by researchers based on press reports, victim surveys and comments by officials.

Interior Minister Miguel Rodriguez Torres said last week that the homicide rate has fallen this year from 50 to 39 per 100,000 inhabitants. But he declined to provide details.

I really hope this is the last time I hear such a completely ignorant claim on your side.

[Judi Lynn]

84. What group wildly benefits from such a conspicuous assassination?

Certainly not the government, nor the pro-government Venezuelans.

Who would ever even dare to claim it was a simple street crime, even?

Please!

Purely evil people also are stupid. Their vanity pushes them to imagine others are easy to fool.

[Marksman_91]

87. Sorry to break it to ya, but even the state police have declared the crime a murder robbery

There are no clues whatsoever that indicate assassination. This happens a lot more often than you think, and common thugs are not gonna recognize a former Miss Venezuela winner when she's just gonna be driving around with her husband and daughter. The culprits have already been captured, and some of them are not even in their 20s. Hell, one of them I believe is a minor. And others already had a criminal record.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

75. I'm Cuban of 4 Spanish grandparents, and I lived in Miami. You're being more honest than

MADem is.

However, as I mentioned, I lived in Miami for many years, and knew plenty of Venezuelans who took flight out of there the moment the govt. changed, and landed in Miami, where they cohabit happily with the CIA Cuban operatives. I can almost repeat verbatim the conversations I had with Venezuelans, and their intentions were not ever to allow the poorest to attain even a level of survival. They were just fine with things the way they were, and labeled anyone who sided with the poor, "Communist." Same thing GOPers do here.

My view of Venezuela is no different than my view of all of Latin America - the rich of each Latin country lived quite nicely at the expense of the rest, and the U.S. helped each of those countries maintain those unfair systems, including helping them initiate coups to topple any democratically elected governments that DARED to help the poor.

[MADem]

36. What is a bala, then, "profesora?" And I don't see a word about "wealthy" in that piece.

It says the children were shot IN THEIR HOMES. Your Spanish is not as good as you claim, clearly. Or you're just not reading clearly--or there's some OTHER reason you failed to translate that piece accurately.

I wonder what that reason could be?

Anyone can check this. I'm not providing a bad interpretation--YOU ARE.

....dos heridos de bala y unos 15 heridos de perdigón, entre ellos dos menores de edad de 1 y 3 años.....

MEANS

... two wounded by bullet and some fifteen wounded by PELLETS, among them two minors of ages one and three years...

To make matters worse, you plainly are proudly stating that the GNB is something other than the National Guard!!!!!!

Let me give you a little lesson, here--What's the Spanish word for GUARD? Begins with a G? Get out your dictionary if you have trouble, now. How about the Spanish word for National? Begins with an N? And then, as everything is in VZ, what does Bolivarian begin with? Would that be a B? What's that spell? Hmmm? Put 'em all together and you get GNB!

You know, I gotta save your post, I can't have you shamefacedly "disappearing" this jewel like Maduro "disappears" protesters--it's the best laugh I've had in years. You hung it all out there, you showed your hand, albeit entirely unintentionally.

Sarah Ibarruri
27. I happen to speak Spanish. It says 2 kids were injured, NOT SHOT AT.
View profile
It also says this was a result of a confrontation between the (as-we-have-seen) wealthy protestors, and the National Guard. It does not say the GNB shot them. There was a confrontation, and as a result, some others that had nothing to do with this confrontation were injured.

Please do me and others a favor and stop making stuff up. If you're going to make stuff up, make sure the article you post is in Swahili, and not in Spanish, so I can't read it. Good try though.

Please do ME a favor and stop making stuff up. No--let's say what you really did, INACCURATELY translating. Let's hope that was just your "error" and not "deliberate" to try and make your failed case.

But hey, look on the bright side--you've learned the word for "bullet" and "pellet" today! And you also learned, you "Venezuelan expert," that the GNB is the Venezuelan National Guard!!!

Not a total waste! Funny as hell to me, though, I must say...!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. It says there was a squirmish between protestors and the National Guard

Those who were injured, were injured as an accident resulting from the squirmish. Please stop trying to twist what articles in Spanish say. I'm fluent in Spanish. You'd better be reeeeeeeeeeeally fluent if you're going to engage ME by twisting words in Spanish and misinterpreting them.

[MADem]

56. My translation is accurate--yours is not. I just taught you

the words for "bullets" and "pellets." I also taught you that the GNB was the National Guard. I guess that bit has sunk in at long last, eh?

And you're taking issue with MY fluency? iCreo que no, profesora!

You'd be better off just not humiliating yourself further--it's not like you can "disappear" that embarrassing post. And you'll not "disappear" this one either because I'm keeping it for posterity, too:

Sarah Ibarruri
0. It says there was a squirmish between protestors and the National Guard
View profile
Those who were injured, were injured as an accident resulting from the squirmish. Please stop trying to twist what articles in Spanish say. I'm fluent in Spanish. You'd better be reeeeeeeeeeeally fluent if you're going to engage ME by twisting words in Spanish and misinterpreting them.

Priceless!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

59. You translated it as "they shot" at the children. It did not say that. I corrected you.

Now stop playing games. Go play elsewhere.

[MADem]

63. Wounded BY bullets and wounded BY pellets IS "shot."

Just like "wounded by knife" is "stabbed."

What, you think they threw the bullets and pellets at them?

Look at you backpedalling!!!

Hilarious!



But pretty sad, too, in a pathetic sort of way, that you'd even try that approach...!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

64. I'm blocking you. Apparently this is your playground, and that's all nt

[MADem]

67. Of course you are.

¡Ay, qué lástima!

Not really...

It is probably for the best; you won't have to revisit your "bullets-pellets-GNB" translation errors anymore. That was somewhat humiliating, and I can understand why you don't want to be reminded of it.

[tblue37]

78. I have no dog in this fight, but I do want to point out that

being SHOT is NOT the same thing as being SHOT AT.

I believe that was the distinction SI was insisting on.

[Flatulo]

85. Very minor nit - it's 'skirmish', not 'squirmish'. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

86. True that, thanks. nt