Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumWhere would we be with CO2 without our 3.063 trillion dollar solar and wind infrastructure?
I'm often asked to justify my hostility to the fossil fuel dependent solar and wind industry by people asking the question, albeit with variable syntax and word choices - and almost never with reference to how much money has been "invested" in wind and solar - forms of the the question asked in the title of this OP.
The question is counterfactual, of course, and I will utilize a counterfactual argument to answer it.
This is usually in response to my unshakable conviction that the solar and wind industries are useless in addressing climate change, which should be obviated by the fact that the rate of climate degradation is accelerating, despite decades of cheering for solar and wind, and oodles of money thrown at it.
The figure, 3.062 trillion dollar figure in the title comes from this source: Global Trends in Renewable Energy Investment 2020.
The publication information is as follows:
Frankfurt School-UNEP Centre/BNEF. 2020.
Global Trends in Renewable Energy Investment 2020, http://www.fs-unep-centre.org (Frankfurt am Main)
Copyright © Frankfurt School of Finance & Management gGmbH 2020
Here is how I came up with the figures.
I referred to figure 42 on page 62 of the report.
It is reproduced here for convenience:
This table is available as a graphics object only, so I manually transcribed it into an Excel spreadsheet to do calculations.
Note that the time period covered is between 2004 and 2019. Far more money has been and is being squandered on solar and wind right up to the present day of course, but for the purpose of the counterfactual calculations here, this number should suffice.
The reader is invited to check my transcription of the numbers into a spreadsheet, but here they are:
For the numbers in the table, the total amount of money squandered on solar energy amounts to 1671.3 billion dollars, 1.6713 trillion dollars. The number after the decimal point represents $300,000,000.
For wind, we have the amount of money squandered on it as being 1391.3 billion dollars, 1.3913 trillion dollars. The number after the decimal point represents $300,000,000, three hundred million dollars. That's the scale of the squandering.
The total amount squandered on these two forms of energy between 2004 and 2019 alone is thus 3062.6 billion dollars. (In the title, I rounded up, what's 400 billion dollars between friends?)
Here, from the 2022 World Energy Outlook from the International Energy Agency (IEA) is the amount of energy produced by all forms of primary energy on this planet, a table I often reproduce in this space:
Source: 2022 IEA World Energy Outlook Table A1a, page 435.
By 2021, at a cost of 1.6713 trillion dollars, solar energy was producing just 5 Exajoules of energy on a planet where 624 Exajoules of energy were being consumed.
By 2021, at a cost of 1.3913 trillion dollars, wind energy was producing just 7 Exajoules of energy on a planet where 624 Exajoules of energy were being consumed.
After 50 years, half a century, of mindless cheering, the entire combined solar and wind industry at 12 Exajoules built at these trillion dollar rates, was not even able to cover the increase in the use of dangerous natural gas, coal and oil from 2020 to 2021, an 11 Exajoule increase for dangerous oil, a 7 Exajoule increase for dangerous natural gas, and an 8 Exajoule increase in the use of dangerous coal.
Note that this table does not include reference to hydrogen or to batteries, the two schemes often the subject of popular stupidity designed to put a band aid on the disastrous unreliability of the solar and wind industry, making them even more environmentally odious than they already are.
The reason these two forms of energy, batteries and hydrogen, do not appear in these tables are that they are NOT primary energy. The laws of physics, specifically the second law of thermodynamics, requires - and is not subject to any amount of wishful thinking, chanting, advertisements, marketing, and willful assertions of ignorance - that whenever energy is stored, energy is lost. In other words, if one stores energy, one wastes it. Given that the world energy supply is dominated by dirty energy - fossil fuels - every hydrogen powered or battery powered device on this planet requires that more fossil fuels, not less, will be consumed.
The hydrogen morons and the battery morons are thus cheering for the increased use of fossil fuels, not the other way around, popular nonsense to the contrary notwithstanding.
(A caveat is the rare case that energy that would otherwise be lost is partially recovered, for example in a hybrid car, or industrially, in process intensification, a prominent subject in modern engineering beyond the scope here.)
Now for the counterfactual statement, where would we be without our trillion dollar solar and wind infrastructure. Let's leave aside the very real fact that if one shuts a thermal power plant of any kind because the wind is blowing or the sun is shining, energy is lost, without providing power to the grid in restarting it. (One can simply place a pot of tap water on a stove, turn the burner on, and observe that it does not instantaneously boil to see this.) If one keeps a boiler on a thermal plant running because the wind might stop blowing, the amount of energy saved is, if not zero exactly, close to zero. (This actually happens and is known as "spinning reserve." )
Let me be more generous, however and compare what would be saved in terms of carbon dioxide by 12 Exajoules of prevented gas use.
A working figure - it varies - for the carbon intensity of gas powered electricity, that used by the Electricity Map is around 600 g CO2/kWh. I've seen lower numbers, a few higher, combined cycle plants do better, Rankine gas plants (converted coal plants) do worse. A kWh is 3,600,000 Joules, and thus there are roughly 278,000,000,000 (278 billion) kWh in an Exajoule. This means that 167 trillion grams of carbon dioxide would be prevented by each Exajoule. There are a million grams in a metric ton, meaning that each Exajoule of gas energy produces about 167 million tons of carbon dioxide. This would suggest that dangerous natural gas alone produces 24 billion tons of carbon dioxide at 146 exajoules, which seems unreasonable, since coal is a larger and dirtier player.
The 2022 World Energy Outlook (WEO) give a figure of 460 grams of CO2/kwh for electricity overall, including that produced by nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, and the dominant dangerous fossil fuels.
To wit:
The global average carbon intensity of electricity generation is currently 460 grammes of carbon dioxide per kilowatt‐hour (g CO2/kWh), heavily influenced by the amount of coal in the mix...
(cf. Page 45, 2022 WEO)
These remarks are followed by soothsaying, which is prominent component of all WEO reports going back to the 1990's; I have copies of most of them.
The 2022 WEO reports that carbon dioxide emissions in 2021 were 36.6 billion tons:
(cf. Page 63, 2022 WEO)
Nominally, 12 Exajoules of solar and wind, assuming that the 460 g CO2/kwh figure is accurate, might have, at maximum, saved 1.6 billion tons of CO2, if and only if, one ignores - wind and solar advocates love ignoring things - that the 460 gram CO2/kwh already includes the contribution from these trivial sources.
And of course, all of the carbon cost of the redundancies for solar and wind are entirely missing from this calculation. Despite much misinformation and outright lying, the sun does not always shine and the wind doesn't always blow. Most kindergarten graduates know that, despite popular representations to the contrary.
Now let's dig deeper into the counterfactual argument and focus on the 3.0626 trillion dollars squandered on solar and wind between 2004 and 2019.
We have a set of antinukes who run around saying that nuclear energy is "too expensive" - and to support this argument, they like to carry on endlessly about the two most recent nuclear reactors built in the United States as a result of the efforts of the Obama administration, Vogtle 3 and Vogtle 4, which were built at a combined cost of $30 billion dollars.
Note that these people never argue that climate change is too expensive, or that the medical costs associated with 7 million people dying each year from air pollution is "too expensive." They don't give a rat's ass about climate change or air pollution. Nor will they acknowledge the fact that a nuclear plant will be available for future generations, whereas every solar and wind facility on this planet will be a liability before today's toddler's finish their college educations. They don't give a rat's ass about the lives of those who will come after; the nickels and dimes in their own bourgeois pockets are the only thing that matters to them, even as their wind and solar advocacy drives up costs for the poor who can least afford it.
Here are the details of the two reactors that antinukes and "I'm not an antinuke" antinukes think are "too expensive:"
They each have a thermal capacity (primary energy) of 3400 MW(th) and an electrical power output of 1147 MWe. (net)
Source: World Nuclear, Vogtle 3
Thus the thermal efficiency of the plants is typical for Rankine type devices, about 33%. I do not agree that future nuclear reactors should be devices of this type; my calculations suggest that it should be possible to achieve at least the thermal efficiency of combined cycle gas plants, which typically have efficiencies around 60%, but this said, the worst nuclear plant is better than the best fossil fuel plant.
The Vogtle reactors were both hand made first of a kind engineering (FOAKE) devices, their costs being tied to the fact that nuclear manufacturing capability in this country was deliberately destroyed by fear and ignorance.
They cost $15 billion dollars each. Thus, for 3.0626 trillion dollars, even at this high end costs, it should have been possible to build 3,062.6 billion/15 billion = 204 Vogtle nuclear reactors for this cost.
Nuclear reactors are designed to run at 100% capacity utilization for periods of up to three years before refueling. Most US reactors do just that. Refueling operations run typically about 2 months, suggesting 95% availability, without requiring back up by fossil fuels as wind and solar junk does, over a 38 month period.
It is reasonable, thus to say that @3400 MW(th) each Vogtle type plant will produce about 0.1 Exajoules of energy per year. Thus if rather than spend money on fossil fuel dependent solar and wind junk, we had built 204 Vogtles, we'd be producing about 20 EJ of energy per year. Moreover, unlike solar and wind junk, which needs replacement in its entirely every twenty to twenty-five years, the nuclear plants are designed to last up to 80 years, perhaps with periodic refurbishment, even longer. This fact makes the squandering on solar and wind even more obscene.
Nuclear plants can and do replace coal plants, which have the second highest capacity utilization in the world, typically on the order of 70%, compared to nuclear's better than 90%, although this is changing because of the ill conceived, wasteful, and frankly deadly practice of using coal as peaker plants when the wind isn't blowing and sun isn't shining, as in the Putin funding coal dependent hellhole Germany. Coal plant used as peaker plants are even dirtier than coal plants run as baseload plants.
Thus if we had built 204 Vogtles, even without realizing the cost savings of mass producing these things (as we did in the 1970's and 1980s in this country when we built more than 100 nuclear reactors in less than 25 years while providing the cheapest electricity in the world), we could have reduced coal from 165 Exajoules to 145 Exajoules. In a sensible world, coal would have disappeared entirely decades ago, but fear and ignorance won the day.
I, however, do not think that building more Vogtles is a good idea, although I am certain that they could be mass produced at a much lower price tag than the FOAKE versions. Although for many years I was a "big reactor" kind of guy, my increasing familiarity with additive manufacture, (3D printing) and certain concepts in modern nuclear engineering thinking suggests that we should build many small reactors designed for flexible use far beyond the production of mere electricity, electricity being, despite popular enthusiasm for it based on the delusional belief it's "green," a thermodynamically degraded form of energy. I've been convinced and have changed my mind. I'm now a small reactor kind of guy. Reactor cores should fit on the bed of a flat bed trailer truck, ideally one powered by the wonder fuel DME, produced using heat from nuclear power plants.
What we need to save the world is not electricity, but rather heat, the higher the temperature the better, and this heat can only be supplied sustainably and cleanly by nuclear energy. Heat is the energy currency that can save what is left to save and restore what can or might be restored.
I hope you've enjoyed your weekend.
Response to NNadir (Original post)
Hugh_Lebowski This message was self-deleted by its author.
NNadir
(33,525 posts)Response to NNadir (Reply #4)
Hugh_Lebowski This message was self-deleted by its author.
NNadir
(33,525 posts)I was using cut and paste from the spreadsheet and working too fast.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)Merlot
(9,696 posts)NNadir
(33,525 posts)You're certainly not alone in this morally appalling calculation.
Merlot
(9,696 posts)NNadir
(33,525 posts)...history of commercial nuclear energy, it has led to as many deaths as will take place in the next six hours from air pollution, that would be about 4500 lost lives, they either change the subject, get stupid or refuse to answer or else they lie.
Antinukes are rather like antivaxxers, except antivaxxers can come nowhere near the number of people killed by antinukism.
The death toll caused by antinukism can easily be determined by appeal to one of the most prominent scientific medical journals.
It is here: Global burden of 87 risk factors in 204 countries and territories, 19902019: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2019 (Lancet Volume 396, Issue 10258, 1723 October 2020, Pages 1223-1249). This study is a huge undertaking and the list of authors from around the world is rather long. These studies are always open sourced; and I invite people who want to carry on about Fukushima to open it and search the word "radiation." It appears once. Radon, a side product brought to the surface by fracking while we all wait for the grand so called "renewable energy" nirvana that did not come, is not here and won't come, appears however: Household radon, from the decay of natural uranium, which has been cycling through the environment ever since oxygen appeared in the Earth's atmosphere.
Here is what it says about air pollution deaths in the 2019 Global Burden of Disease Survey, if one is too busy to open it oneself because one is too busy carrying on about Fukushima:
Antinukes, like antivaxxers, tend to elevate their own ignorance and paranoia over reality. The result is climate change and about 7 million deaths per year, all driven out of a contempt for science.
The climate scientist Jim Hansen calculated how many lives were saved by nuclear energy back in 2013:
Prevented Mortality and Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Historical and Projected Nuclear Power (Pushker A. Kharecha* and James E. Hansen Environ. Sci. Technol., 2013, 47 (9), pp 48894895)
This of course, is a scientific publication, and science is rarely popular with cults, especially not antinuke cults.
Merlot
(9,696 posts)NNadir
(33,525 posts)There are thousands of references to the primary scientific literature therein.
I find the rote paranoids of the "No Nukes" variety to be uneducated, uninformed and indifferent.
They just don't give a fuck about the world, and they are the main reason that history will not forgive us, nor should it.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)... somehow mysteriously adding weight to your argument?
In https://www.democraticunderground.com/1127163932 you state 19,000 deaths per day from fossil fuel pollution.
Here you state 4500 deaths per hour, which is 108,000 deaths per day. From air pollution, which includes a lot of chemical junk that has nothing to do with global warming or energy production.
The discrepancy is not a slipped decimal point.
Are you carelessly conflating fuel pollution with air pollution? Or are you careless in your calculations where it benefits your argument? Or is there a third explanation?
What are your sources for deaths by air pollution and deaths by fossil fuel pollution?
NNadir
(33,525 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 8, 2023, 10:12 AM - Edit history (1)
This is obviously an approximation but 19,000 is derived from the Lancet figure (rounded to 7 million) per year, divided by 365 rounded from 19178, 19,000 divided by 24 is 791, which I round down (in my head) to come up with 4500.
Obviously the number of deaths about, which antinukes couldn't care, less varies. For instance, when a large fraction of North America was covered by the smoke of a burning irreplaceable ecosystem in recent weeks because antinukes couldn't care less about climate change, the number of deaths per hour probably rose.
Nitpicking over the exact numbers and skipping words in the text does not distract from the reality that antinukes think that if someone dies some day somewhere in one of their tortured interpretations from radiation from the big bogey man at Fukushima, it's OK for 70 million people to be killed by air pollution every decade from air pollution and it's OK for people to start dropping dead all over the world from extreme heat.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)... but now I can't find the post I saw when I went back to check.
NNadir
(33,525 posts)Hermit-The-Prog
(33,355 posts)If so, how can we extract the excess heat our (CO2 + others) is preventing from re-radiating?
NNadir
(33,525 posts)Thanks again for asking.
Let me know if you have any questions I can answer.
True Dough
(17,306 posts)as to why thorium reactors have not become "the answer." I heard all sorts of promising news about them a few years ago -- much less concern over hazardous waste -- but it doesn't seem to be coming to fruition for some reason(s).
NNadir
(33,525 posts)I have no personal problems with thorium as a nuclear fuel, but it is not as sustainable at uranium, much rhetoric to the contrary notwithstanding. It has the wonderful property of being a breeding fuel in the thermal spectrum. I particularly favor its use in CANDU type heavy water reactors, which is an important item in the Indian nuclear energy program because of their huge thorium reserves.
The "waste" problem to my mind has always been an affectation. Used nuclear fuel is a valuable resource and all that is required is understanding it as such. The storage of used nuclear fuel has a spectacular record of not killing anyone, unlike dangerous fossil fuel waste which kills continuously and in vast numbers, as it is also known as "air pollution" and more recently, climate change gas.
The traditional MSR developed by Weinberg used a coolant known as FLIBE, an acronym derived from the elemental symbols for the three elements composing it, fluorine, lithium, and beryllium. In the best case, lithium needs to undergo isotopic separation to separate the 6 and 7 isotopes to prevent the formation of tritium, tritium getting people into a kind of absurd snit. (If fusion reactors are ever built and workably economic, something about which I'm cautiously skeptical, we will need tritium, and no, lithium blankets in fusion reactors won't cut it.) Beryllium is a very toxic element, and its primary use, in stealth military aircraft did cause significant health problems in aerospace workers. It can be handled safely, but it is challenging. In a neutron flux, Be-9, the only stable isotope is transmuted into long lived Be-10, a radioactive isotope that I personally think could be useful, but not in a world dominated by radiation paranoia that is killing the planet.
I flirted with this concept for a number of years, but I think it was over hyped, and the enthusiasm for it was driven by irrational antinuke fears that do not correspond to the observed reality of nuclear energy: It is by far, the safest and most sustainable form of energy there is. This is not to say that nuclear energy is without risk. It doesn't have to be without risk to be lower risk than everything else; put differently, it doesn't need to be perfect to be vastly superior to everything else. It only needs to be vastly superior to everything else, which it is.
All this said, a FLIBE manufacturing facility has opened in the US, not for thorium MSRs, but for Per Peterson's Kairos reactor, a kind of reactor that is a cross between a pebble bed reactor and a molten salt reactor. (It will use uranium TRISO fuel.) This reactor is in late stages of approval.
A friend of mine, albeit one I haven't spoken with in a number of years, Kirk Sorensen of FLIBE Energy served the world well by saving the documentation of the MSR at Oak Ridge from destruction. The MSR was a wonderful and workable idea advanced in a time of enormous nuclear creativity that the world sorely misses. But it is certainly not necessarily the best kind of reactor possible and I'm not sure that even Weinberg himself would make that claim.
It relied on nickel based superalloys for corrosion resistance, and these alloys can be problematic over the long term in neutron fluxes owing to a nuclear reaction associated with the Ni-59 isotope formed by neutron capture in Ni-58, the dominant isotope in nickel.
The problem of nuclear energy optimization is now mostly connected with material science. We are entering a golden age of material science.
Nevertheless the concepts of molten salts as heat transfer/heat storage and even as solvents have much to recommend them.
My current personal favorite coolant/solvent/heat transfer/heat storage molten salts are zirconium tetrafluoride based eutectics. We have lots of zirconium available in used nuclear fuels.
Think. Again.
(8,187 posts)You write:
"After 50 years, half a century, of mindless cheering, the entire combined solar and wind industry at 12 Exajoules built at these trillion dollar rates, was not even able to cover the increase in the use of dangerous natural gas, coal and oil from 2020 to 2021, an 11 Exajoule increase for dangerous oil, a 7 Exajoule increase for dangerous natural gas, and an 8 Exajoule increase in the use of dangerous coal."
According to your argument, we should discard and stop generating energy from any non-CO2 source that is currently producing a low amount of energy compared to fossil fuels.
After 50 years, renewables are now producing 29% of global energy.
After 70 years, nuclear is now only producing 10% of global energy.
Nuclear energy now provides about 10% of the world's electricity from about 440 power reactors." From https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/nuclear-power-in-the-world-today.aspx
Some pretty charts:
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2021.07.28/main.svg
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2021.07.28/chart2.svg
"
You also write that cost is a concern...
Onshore wind and solar PV's are cheaper than nuclear;
I think you are wrong to insist that we stop using nuclear just because it is currently providing the lowest amount of energy compared to fossil fuels and is more expensive compared to other non-CO2 energy sources.
We will need ALL non-CO2 energy sources to eliminate the burning of fossil fuels.
NNadir
(33,525 posts)Nuclear numbers look fine to me, but I'm educated. My son, as I'm happy to report is a nuclear engineering Ph.D. student, and of course, he and his peers are dedicating their lives to saving the world. They don't really give a shit about what reactionary sloganeers think either.
If I were an airhead, I'd just make stuff up, like pretending we're not out of rivers to destroy for one example, and that 50 years of chanting about reactionary so called "renewable energy" hasn't left the planet on fire, seeing a year with 424 ppm readings.
Numbers don't lie, but obviously there are people who can't comprehend them.
For the record, the solar and wind industry, at the costs mentioned in the OP have never, not once in their disgusting wasteful history, ever reached half of what the nuclear industry has been producing since the 1990's despite popular catcalls from people who can't think, between 28 and 30 exajoules.
I note that the failed and useless solar and wind industry have failed to match nuclear energy's output in a climate of cheering by people who have never been able to comprehend numbers. Nuclear energy did so using 1970's and 1980's technology. The growth of the industry was stopped by morons disinterested in attacking fossil fuels with their idiot wind and solar fantasies, but very much invested in attacking nuclear energy.
Here we are, with a planet on fire, with the same chants unstopped from the same sort of generic antinukes demonstrating their lack of intellect openly and I dare say, proudly.
Strip mining forests for firewood is not "renewable energy," and neither is destroying rivers.
The world's rivers, I note, are threatened by the very topic about which antinukes couldn't care less, climate change. Good luck with hydro when all the world's glaciers are gone.
Think. Again.
(8,187 posts)You write:
"For the record, the solar and wind industry, at the costs mentioned in the OP have never, not once in their disgusting wasteful history, ever reached half of what the nuclear industry has been producing since the 1990's despite popular catcalls from people who can't think, between 28 and 30 exajoules.
I note that the failed and useless solar and wind industry have failed to match nuclear energy's output in a climate of cheering by people who have never been able to comprehend numbers."
My post clearly states:
After 50 years, renewables are now producing 29% of global energy.
"...the share of renewables in global electricity generation jumped to 29% in 2020, up from 27% in 2019."
From: https://www.iea.org/reports/global-energy-review-2021/renewables
After 70 years, nuclear is now only producing 10% of global energy.
"The first commercial nuclear power stations started operation in the 1950s.
Nuclear energy now provides about 10% of the world's electricity from about 440 power reactors."
From https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/nuclear-power-in-the-world-today.aspx
"Numbers don't lie, but obviously there are people who can't comprehend them." -NNadir
NNadir
(33,525 posts)It is still producing better than twice as much energy as solar and wind, as the table from the IEA above shows.
Unlike mindless antinukes engaging in "percent talk" I fully recognize that biomass and hydro are not sustainable. It's in the fucking news for anyone who can read. Indeed, the fucking forests are burning, in Canada, because of extreme heat.
The rivers are dying from the same cause, extreme heat, leading to the destruction of the glaciers on which most depend.
Therefore if the "percent talk" includes hydro and biomass, it's just more appalling oblivious nonsense.
Now arsonists complaining about forest fires don't get a bye from me. Their ignorance is killing the planet. People who've been handing this tiresome bullshit chanting for decade after decade are climate arsonists.
The question is whether the "percent talk" that's been handed out here for 20 years as things get worse and worse involves rivers and biomass, or whether it involves sustainable energy.
I do note that it's cute when chanting antinukes show up here, as they do year after year, to declare that they're not antinukes, and then hand out every bit of the same tiresome tripe that antinukes have been handing out for decade after decade after decade.
I assume they assume that other people are stupid.
If they weren't responsible for so much death and destruction, they'd almost be cute in an amusing way, but as it is, as they're just people working to keep us on the same trajectory of disaster, elevating shit for brains fantasies over reality, they should disgust any real environmentalist.
They certainly disgust me.
Have a wonderful day tomorrow.
Think. Again.
(8,187 posts)When faced with the weak position nuclear holds in the effort to reduce CO2 emissions, you write:
"Again, nuclear energy has been under consistent attack by people who can't think."
You have a good point.
Attacks on any non-CO2 source of energy could probably result in continued use and possibly continued increase of energy being sourced from fossil fuels.
Something to think about?
hunter
(38,317 posts)https://insideclimatenews.org/news/23062023/todays-climate-texas-heat-climate-renewables
This is a very popular lie among solar and wind enthusiasts, some of whom are greenwashing shills for the natural gas industry, others simply innumerate.
"Believing" and vigorously defending impossible things doesn't make them true.
By now it's obvious that wind and solar power are useless without fossil fuels and that hybrid wind/solar/natural gas power systems will not save the world.
Enthusiasm for large scale wind and solar developments is just another flavor of climate change denial.
Think. Again.
(8,187 posts)...that "wind and solar power are useless without fossil fuels"?
That opinion doesn't seem to make sense since wind and solar could provide energy that would displace fossil fuel energy and since wind and solar, when we build them without using fossil fuels, are entirely independent of fossil fuels.
NNadir
(33,525 posts)..."I'm not an antinuke," antinukes here.
It's also very clear why serious and educated people find such credulousness disingenuous.
Once again for the zillionth time, vast amounts of money, resources, materials and land have been squandered on this useless solar and wind fantasy with the result that climate change and the use of fossil fuels are getting worse faster.
Twenty years of this blah, blah, blah, insistence that this junk is useful in spite of any evidence to show that it is has taken place in a period in which CO2 concentrations rose by an unprecedented 50 ppm.
It does not fall to people who despise this chanting in favor of this crap to justify why we do what we do.
Rather it behooves the antinukes, including the "I'm not an antinuke" antinukes to show that the trillions squandered on solar and wind had some result other than making things worse.
One cannot, in general, make sense to the deliberately preternaturnatually senseless set of people for whom no amount of information can open their minds.
Think. Again.
(8,187 posts)...that "wind and solar power are useless without fossil fuels" ?
It's a statement that seems senseless and contradictory, and I'm curious about whether there is anything meaningful behind it.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)NNadir
(33,525 posts)In any case, the point is short term storage for load leveling, but I have also considered long distance transport of steam at very high temperatures, the steam being derived from the expansion of supercrtiical water.
Transport of any form of energy causes energy losses. This includes thermodyanmically degraded electricity.
In the natural world, volcanoes represent heat transport.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)My terse blanket statement of course is not inclusive of all cases, but remains basically true for most considerations of energy systems in large countries like US and Canada.
If you have some kinds of heat, then short distance district heating systems do work. They work inefficiently, but for those distances converting to electricity and back to heat is more inefficient.
For longer distances, heat is not an efficient energy transport mechanism.
Of course volcanoes transport heat. But that statement of yours is a distraction in a discussion like this.
NNadir
(33,525 posts)...designed to minimize thermodynamic losses from second law energy conversions.
In some cases energy losses are actually desirable, for example replacing cooling towers with transported steam from supercritical water desalination will bring the water to a usable state.
I reserve the right to interpret "terse" statements if they are less than comprehensive.