Is this the end of the hydrogen highway?

[mahatmakanejeeves]

CALIFORNIA

Is this the end of the hydrogen highway?

A legislative fight over funding for hydrogen stations could be the fuel’s last gasp for passenger vehicles.



Hydrogen-powered cars accounted for just 1 percent of zero-emission sales in California in the first quarter of 2023, even as zero-emission vehicles made up 25 percent of new-car sales overall. | Bret Hartman/AP Photo

By BLANCA BEGERT

08/15/2023 04:27 PM EDT

A fight over funding for fueling stations could mark the beginning of the end for costly and energy intensive hydrogen-powered passenger cars in California. ... Oil companies and environmentalists are in a tug-of-war over CA AB241 (23R), which would reduce dedicated funding for hydrogen passenger vehicle fueling stations and open up more support for electric vehicle infrastructure.

Assemblymember Eloise Reyes (D-Colton) and Senator Lena Gonzalez (D-Long Beach) are proposing to halve the Energy Commission’s roughly $20 million annual earmark for light-duty hydrogen vehicle infrastructure, which the industry has relied on to establish the country’s largest network of fueling stations. ... “We don’t want to leave money encumbered because that’s money that could be used for other EV stations or technology-neutral stations,” Reyes said in an interview.

After more than a decade and some $116 million of state support, California has 63 publicly accessible fueling stations for hydrogen cars. It also has about 12,000 hydrogen passenger cars on the road — by far the most of any state, with about 40 percent of global market share in 2022. That’s still only about 1 percent of California’s zero-emission vehicles.

And their market share is staying stagnant as electric vehicles take off: Hydrogen made up about 1 percent of zero-emission sales in the first quarter of 2023, even as zero-emission vehicles made up 25 percent of new-car sales overall. Toyota and Hyundai are the only automakers selling hydrogen fuel cell cars in California. ... Environmental groups, as well as some automotive industry representatives, say California has propped up hydrogen long enough and should declare electric vehicles the winner for light-duty use — or at least open up state funding so hydrogen projects have to compete directly against electric ones.

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[Think. Again.]

1. Luckily...

...hydrogen stations are being increasingly developed in other countries...

https://www.h2stations.org/

...so when we in the U.S. need to transition (yet again) away from batteries due to the limited sources they a made from, the technology and market-scaling hydrogen highways will already be developed for us.

Unluckily, we in the U.S. are (yet again) allowing all those other countries to take the lead in this important aspect of the non-CO2 economy.

[Miguelito Loveless]

3. Hydrogen doesn't make any sense as a fuel

since the energy required to make a single kg of H2, which would drive you about 50 miles in an H2 vehicle, would take you 150+ miles in an EV. Also, EVs are moving away from current batteries containing cobalt, nickel, and manganese, to LFP batteries, with lithium, iron and phosphorus, which is plentiful.

[Think. Again.]

5. Plentiful is not infinite....

...and when you need to store energy for any length of time, or when you need to use a non-CO2 emitting combustible fuel, Hydrogen indeed does make perfect sense.

Also, the mining of any of those materials is ecologically destructive.

And as you probably know, energy is lost during any transfer from a source to another form of storage. The average energy loss from charging an EV battery is about 15%

[Miguelito Loveless]

9. And the energy loss for hydrogen is even greater

Convert electricity and fresh water(also a limited resource) into hydrogen, pressurize and store, then convert the hydrogen back into electricity to charge the small battery to drive the motor.

HFCVs also require mining for the resources to make the car, the fuel cell and the batteries (small, but still required).

You can’t get away from the fact that hydrogen requires about 3x the energy of a BEV to go the same distance.

[Think. Again.]

10. Making electricity from Hydrogen creates fresh water...

...but thank goodness we only need to power small cars for relatively short range so we don't have to worry about the weight and space those batteries require on top the excess mining to build them.

What's that? We need more types of vehicles than just small cars? Who knew???

[Miguelito Loveless]

12. Hydrogen creates water, which then falls on the ground,

it is NOT recovered.

I have been following hydrogen and EV tech for over ten years, and the market has pretty much decided. BEVs outsell HFCVs about 10,000 to 1.

[Think. Again.]

14. You do know how Earth's water system works...

...right? How freshwater, also called 'groundwater' is cycled through the system?

And yeah, internal combustion engine vehicles still outsell BEVs, does that mean we should stop making BEVs?

[Miguelito Loveless]

15. Yes, because water falling on asphalt really

Speeds it way back to groundwater.

The ICE versus BEV ratio has been shifting at an accelerated rate towards BEVs in the last decade. The H2 versus BEV ratio, not so much.

[Think. Again.]

17. I see...

..so all this talk about rainwater "run off" is a lie because when water hits asphalt it magically disappears and reduces the SET amount of water on our planet. Got it.

And I guess since H2 tech hasn't hit a certain random market level yet, it must just stay at the level it's at forever?

[Miguelito Loveless]

18. I am talking about water dripping out of a HFCV drainpipe

not rainwater, which falls from the sky in orders of magnitude greater volume.

There are millions of EVs sold annually, and the numbers grow by double digits for the last years. HFCVs are selling in the thousands.

I will bookmark this post and check back in 3-5 years and see which product the consumers pick.

[Think. Again.]

19. I certainly hope...

...this will be settled in 3-5 years, but I really don't think complete turnovers of mega-major global industries work anywhere near that fast.

[NickB79]

22. Fossil aquifers are a thing

Aquifers that have such a slow refill rate, it took tens of thousands of years for them to fill from the natural water cycle.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29678-7

Fossil groundwater—defined as groundwater that has been underground for more than 12 thousand years—likely comprises more than half of global groundwater stored within 1000 m of the land surface1.

And they predominantly exist in dry areas.

The same desert areas that green hydrogen companies are building in, to take advantage of abundant solar energy. And then drain said fossil aquifers, which won't refill for millennia.

[Think. Again.]

7. And then there's...

...Hydrogen's greater energy storage density, lower weight, and smaller space requirements, as well the amount of time involved in recharging batteries compared to refilling Hydrogen tanks.

So yeah, Hydrogen does make a LOT of sense as a fuel.

[Miguelito Loveless]

8. More complicated system, expensive,

Most hydrogen comes from coal and gas, and will require a brand new fueling infrastructure built from scratch. As to fueling times, CATL is now making batteries that can recharge 200 miles in 10 minutes. The biggest proponents for hydrogen are oil and gas companies.

Battery tech has gotten better every year. I have been driving electric since 2014 and it has saved me a small fortune in fuel and maintenance costs.

[Think. Again.]

11. First of all...

...stop with the "hydrogen comes from fossil fuels!" stuff.

Hydrogen can be made from any non-CO2 emitting energy source and is only being mostly made from fossil fuels because we're still mostly using fossil fuels for energy.

The biggest proponents for Hydrogen are reasonable folks who realize we will need all the non-CO2 energy options we can get.

And yes, all technology improves over time and with market scaling, Hydrogen technology included.

[Miguelito Loveless]

13. Look at the current sources for H2

It is about 98% gas and coal. Yes, you can make green H2, but again, you spend 3x the energy to travel the same distance in a HFCV than you would a BEV when you use green energy.

[Think. Again.]

16. Yes...

...we still use fossil fuels to make energy, that's why it's called the 'energy transition', as we continue to move away from burning fossil fuels, more of ALL energy will NOT use fossil fuels, including the energy needed to make Hydrogen.

And yes, some systems use more energy than others and are used for different purposes and needs than others, that does not mean we should only use the least energy system for it's purpose and just give up on all other needs.

[Caribbeans]

2. NOT A SINGLE MENTION OF CHINA, KOREA or JAPAN in the ENTIRE ARTICLE

Gee why is that?

Shanghai to have 70 hydrogen refueling stations and 10,000 FCEVs in operation by 2025. Shanghai is a renowned hydrogen hub in China, headquartered by dozens of innovators and manufacturers across the hydrogen supply chain
https://chinahydrogen.substack.com/p/shanghai-to-have-70-hydrogen-refueling

Signal: China issues guidelines on hydrogen ahead of industry boom. “[The guidelines have] paved the way for the rapid development of the hydrogen-industry chain in the next few years. The development of hydrogen energy in the country is expected to speed up.”
https://www.energymonitor.ai/news/signal-china-issues-guidelines-on-hydrogen-ahead-of-industry-boom/

China: Guangzhou Sets Out Plan for USD1.4 Billion Fuel Cell Vehicle Industry by 2025. The city aims to establish itself as a leading domestic development and manufacturing hub for FCVs, covering the whole industry chain from core parts to vehicle assembly
https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/guangzhou-sets-out-plan-for-usd14-billion-fuel-cell-vehicle-industry-by-2025

Asian Dominance in the Hydrogen Car Market: A Challenge for Europe and US. There are eight times more H2-powered passenger vehicles in just Korea than there are in the entire European Union
https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-car-market-challenge/8560146/

Maybe this is why:

The U.S. National Blueprint for Transportation Decarbonization says batteries make the most sense for the light-duty sector, but hydrogen fuel cells have a role in long-haul trucking and short-haul commuter and cargo flights
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/feds-favors-battery-evs-over-hydrogen

The US has gone from a "Can Do" nation to a "Can't Do Anything Besides War" nation and it is disgusting. With any luck I'll be an expat within a few years. Cannot wait.

When China, Korea and Japan control the entire hydrogen fuel cell market the authors of articles like this can take a well deserved bow.

Failure to learn from Solar - history repeats

[Alexander Of Assyria]

4. Long term planning at a federal level is required...a nation unable to pass a budget beyond the

next made up crisis…can’t do this. Just like couldn’t and didn’t create its own semiconductor industry, so…blame China! A mirror would do better to explain the problem self created.

The military muscle bound America has its priorities upside down…unable to set any priority or planning not involving war and weapons and military drum besting except isles spanning the globe, weekly.

[Think. Again.]

6. Yep...

...and because of this, we are just giving away our one chance to be at the global forefront of the new energy economy.

[CoopersDad]

25. Thaks for these links.

I like both FCEV and BEV tech, hate to be called a fossil fuel lobbyist for it but I think we need an all of the above strategy.

[NNadir]

26. I mention China frequently. It's where hydrogen is made from coal reforming, a filthy process...

...that greenwashing fossil fuel sales people and sales bots here and elsewhere try to advertise as being made by so called "renewable energy" posting dishonest cartoons with trivial Potemkin solar and wind junk.

Hydrogen is filthy in China; it's filthy in Japan; it's filthy in the United States; it's filthy in South America, and in Antarctica for that matter; it's filthy everywhere.

Half a century of this tiresome bait and switch game has not, and cannot make hydrogen "green," because it's not primary energy.

A Giant Climate Lie: When they're selling hydrogen, what they're really selling is fossil fuels.

As for fuel cells, the fluorine chemistry involved should disgust any real environmentalist, but lets be clear, fossil fuel sales people and sales bots rebranding fossil fuels as "hydrogen" are not environmentalists.

[NNadir]

20. Hydrogen is rebranded fossil fuels. All of it is an asinine fraud, squandering, destructive waste.

[Miguelito Loveless]

21. Something else

we agree on.

[hunter]

23. Fresh young thing me did the math on this near forty years ago...

... and burned a few of my hydrogen enthusiast mentors badly.

Most of them are dead now, but zombies persist.

[CoopersDad]

24. Santa Cruz Metro is getting 57 hydrogen buses for our transit system.

I don't think it makes sense for our passenger vehicle fleet but it does seem to make sense for transit and trucking, maybe aircraft too.